Piracy Redux

[Golan2072]

In order to avoid hijacking the Cruiser thread, I'll post this here:

Pendragonman,

Yes, we have had the discussion before and my offer still stands:

Pick a Traveller ship combat system, stick to it, and we'll show why your ideas don't work.

I'll take your offer. I want to see your proof that piracy doesn't work in both LBB2 and High Guard, and I want to see the reasons for this.

Thanks,
Omer Golan

 

[jawillroy]

*eagerly watching*

'Course, I *know* it works IMTU, just not everywhere...

 

[robject]

Well, never mind my preference for piracy, but: the mechanics are dicey. I'm surprised that you, Omer, haven't seen this argument traded about (I guess you weren't on the TML much?).

We might as well make this as painless as possible...

Book 2 is a decent enough choice, because we have a playing surface.

Assume a virtual, empty living room.

Do you want to assume a Size 8 world? OK, put that in the middle of our virtual living room. Next, place the pirate in a deliberate position. Then place the system defense boat -- if there is one. I suppose a Class "C" starport might be assumed to have a cutter or fighter at the port itself? (Who knows!) Finally, place the trader on a random point 100D from the world. On our living room, that'd be like 8 meters away from the world, unless I'm off by a factor...

Okay, so the first thing we notice is that the pirate ought to wait until a trader pops in close enough to strike...

But I'm getting ahead of Whipsnade. Since he's very good at this sort of thing I'll leave it to him.


(Note that High Guard doesn't have rules for handling piracy, only for combat, so we'd still have to use Book 2 I guess).

 

[pendragonman]

Under optimum conditions of defense:
1) SDB has nothing to do but orbit the planet, in fact SDB stays close to but not necessarily on top of, the Star Port.
2) Absolute perfect, light speed or near light speed, transfer of data from sensor satellites.
3) The unlimited ranges available in CT.
4) Absolutely no perfidiousness (or outright laziness) on the part of any government official AND absolutely no Player Character "intervention".

Then Whipsnade is correct. By the absolute letter of the rules, piracy cannot happen and commerce raiding is left to commerce destruction. If any of the above is missing, then piracy and actual capture of merchant vessels is possible, and likely, especially if the GM wants it to happen for adventure hooks. This hypothesis clearly disregards the piracy being an inside job where someone is co-opted on the merchant vessel target to cause a minor misjump or outright hijacking of the vessel.

However, I prefer to play in and run a TU where piracy is possible. Thus I prefer a TU that has any one of those four items above (or perhaps all 4) be not valid. After all, that makes for a much more interesting game than any position on this that Whipsnade might take.

In other words, I am not a rules lawyer. I prefer the spirit (or intent) of the game, not the letter of the rule to govern the TU that I play in or GM in.

 

[Golan2072]

Well, never mind my preference for piracy, but: the mechanics are dicey. I'm surprised that you, Omer, haven't seen this argument traded about (I guess you weren't on the TML much?).

I weren't much on TML; on CotI I've seen this argument from time to time and from several sides, but I wanted to hear Whipsnade's take of it, as promised in the previous thread. I'm especially interested in the implications of ship design/combat systems on this rather than on the more theoretical economic side.

 

[aramis]

CT Ranges are not infinite; military sensors are 1LS, civil 1/2 LS.

Can't shoot what you can't see.

 

[atpollard]

Whipsnade asked for specifics: "Pick a Traveller ship combat system, stick to it, and we'll show why your ideas don't work." Just for fun let's try talking in specifics using the CT system in The Traveller Book (TTB) which should match the LBB2 system..

Given:
A size 8 world with a size 1 moon orbiting at 500,000 km.
Planetary defense consists of 40 Fighters (10 dTons, 6G, TL 12, with a model 3 computer, triple missile racks, 3xHE and 6xNuke missiles). All fighters are based at the Ground Port and 2 are in orbit at any moment (on patrol). The ground spaceport mounts the equivalent of 10 Triple Missile Turrets and 10 triple Pulse Laser Turrets for planetary defense. [EDIT: The Ground based defenses in my example are to answer the inevitable question about why the pirate does not attack the Port instead of the Ships. ]

A pirate ship (400 dTon Patrol Cruiser) is hiding in a lunar crater on the far side and scans for incoming ships.

COMBAT: Let’s use TURNS to measure time (1 Turn = 1000 seconds). Rather than measuring distances in mm of game scale (since we do not have a tabletop) let us measure distances in KILOMETERS where 100 mm game scale = 10,000 km in real distance. One G of acceleration is equal to 10,000 km per turn. [from TTB, pg. 72]

An unarmed Fat Trader arrives at the 100 diameter limit with no velocity. From pg. 54 of TTB, the Fat Trader is 1,280,000 km from the world and will require 372 minutes to travel to the port at 1G. For the sake of simplicity, assume that the path of the merchant will pass within 50,000 km of the moon on a straight line course to the dirt-side port. The 372 minutes = 22,320 seconds = 22.3 turns to arrive at port.

DETECTION [from TTB, pg. 75]: “Commercial or privately owned ships [like the Fat Trader] can detect other ships up to one-half light-second (1,500mm) away [1500mm = 150,000 km]. Military or scout ships [like the Fighters and the Pirate] can detect other ships up to two light-seconds (6,000mm) away [6000mm = 600,000 km]. Tracking: Once detected, a vessel can be tracked by another ship up to three light-seconds (9,000mm) away [9000mm = 900,000 km].”


TURN 0: The Fat Trader arrives and begins heading towards the port, fat and dumb. The Fat Trader is roughly 780,000 km from the Pirate – neither ship can detect the other.

TURN 1: The Fat Trader accelerates to 10,000 km per turn and is roughly 770,000 km from the Pirate – neither ship can detect the other.

TURN 2: The Fat Trader accelerates to 20,000 km per turn and is roughly 750,000 km from the Pirate – neither ship can detect the other.

TURN 3: The Fat Trader accelerates to 30,000 km per turn and is roughly 720,000 km from the Pirate – neither ship can detect the other.

TURN 4: The Fat Trader accelerates to 40,000 km per turn and is roughly 680,000 km from the Pirate – neither ship can detect the other.

TURN 5: The Fat Trader accelerates to 50,000 km per turn and is roughly 630,000 km from the Pirate – neither ship can detect the other.

TURN 6: The Fat Trader accelerates to 60,000 km per turn and is roughly 570,000 km from the Pirate. The Pirate detects the Fat Trader but the Fat Trader cannot detect the pirate.

TURN 7: The Fat Trader accelerates to 70,000 km per turn and is roughly 500,000 km from the Moon and 1,000,000 km from the planet. The Pirate orders the Fat Trader to halt and be boarded and fires a warning shot. The Starport hears the transmission and orders the two fighters in orbit to respond while scrambling another 18 fighters. The fighters can detect the Pirate and are able to launch against it. Since the fighters can detect it, the planetary ground batteries can also track it up to 900,000 km away.

HELP ME… I see how the pirate can destroy the Fat Trader, but even if the Fat Trader wanted to stop and surrender, it would require 7 turns of deceleration and would stop another 280,000 km closer to the planet (a range of 720,000 km from the planet). The fighters will arrive with zero velocity at the stopped Fat Trader in about 7.2 Turns (120 minutes).

The Pirate will need to intercept and board the Fat Trader while the Fat Trader decelerates and will be subject to attack by the planetary fighters for the entire time it is attacking and boarding the Fat Trader – and it still needs to escape (under fire by 20 nuclear armed fighters).

Perhaps someone would care to suggest a different plan of attack?

 

[robject]

Perhaps someone would care to suggest a different plan of attack?

Short of rewriting the rules?...

The pirate might prefer being just a turn or two inside the 100D point, and only choose to strike when a trader pops in on the closest part of the 100D arc -- say one or two turns away. That may be most advantageous for it: the trader wouldn't have a chance to accelerate much, and then basically towards the corsair.

The pirate may have to sit and wait awhile, given that there's a lot of room, even at 2D, around that target world... and that the target starport isn't too heavily visited (or else it would be too heavily patrolled, perhaps?). And how will it explain its presence to patrols (I suppose it would have to run cold while waiting, assuming sensors won't be able to see it).

This all gets into the System Defense Holy War, which is joined at the waist with the Imperial Traffic Holy War, too.

 

[atpollard]

It might be a little better to attack a ship leaving port as it zooms past. That at least sets the pirate heading away from the planet and towards the jump point and allows a willing victim to maintain velocity and be boarded closer to the jump limit. But those fighters will be within range (600,000 to 900,000 km) very quickly.

 

[far-trader]

It might be a little better to attack a ship leaving port as it zooms past...

The (one) problem with that is they will have a full fuel load and jump coordinates plotted and laid in making it an easy choice for them to risk a sub-100d jump to escape with a high probability of no damage.

 

[atpollard]

The (one) problem with that is they will have a full fuel load and jump coordinates plotted and laid in making it an easy choice for them to risk a sub-100d jump to escape with a high probability of no damage.

Your warning shot would need to pound them with everything you have - hoping to damage the fuel, computer, jump drive or power plant enough to keep them from jumping away. Then they drift at high but constant velocity towards the jump point. But can you snatch and grab before the fighters scramble and get in range? If you attacked a Passenger Liner, the threat of the Pirate destroying the Passenger Ship might keep the fighters from attacking. In the end, the Pirate is probably looking to grab the launch and some cargo before jumping away.

 

[Golan2072]

This all gets into the System Defense Holy War, which is joined at the waist with the Imperial Traffic Holy War, too.

I fear it does. The big question arising from atpollard's example is: are there worlds without serious defenses (read: anything which would easily kill a small pirate ship) visited by merchant craft at a high enough frequency to guarantee enough income to a pirate ship?

The example also shows that Hard Times or TNE are far more pirate-friendly milieux than the Classic era OTU as local defenses are either non-present or extremely weakened.

 

[far-trader]

Your warning shot would need to pound them with everything you have...

Just to point out the obvious, that's hardly a sporting "warning shot" old chap :smirk:

...hoping to damage the fuel, computer, jump drive or power plant enough to keep them from jumping away.

Without damaging the valuables you want or simply causing the whole thing to blow up.

This isn't going to work for a grab and run it's more the standard commerce hit and run causing damage without taking any.

If you attacked a Passenger Liner, the threat of the Pirate destroying the Passenger Ship might keep the fighters from attacking.

Not likely if the Pirates employed your maximally lethal "warning shot" above. More likely the fighters would be coming hot and heavy. And you've got to hope the Merchie didn't tender their "surrender" in the same kind as your "warning shot", I know as the Captain of the Merchant you'd be getting a "full reading" of my terms.

In the end, the Pirate is probably looking to grab the launch and some cargo before jumping away.

"Capt'n Hole."

"I've told you it's Black Hole you one armed simp! Now what do you have to report?"

"We have the launch aboard sir and are safely in jump."

"Excellent!"

"The crew reports the launch is ticking loud and clear."

"Ticking?!"

<BOOOOOOOOM>

 

[atpollard]

The big question arising from atpollard's example is: are there worlds without serious defenses (read: anything which would easily kill a small pirate ship) visited by merchant craft at a high enough frequency to guarantee enough income to a pirate ship?

The example also shows that Hard Times or TNE are far more pirate-friendly milieu than the Classic era OTU as local defenses are either non-present or extremely weakened.

Five fighters cost about the same as a Subsidized Merchant or 2.5 Free Traders. The world that cannot afford 100 million credits worth of defense should probably be happy for the protection offered by a pirate ship conquering the planet. How does a world attract a merchant ship when the merchant ship costs more than the entire Planetary Navy?

Even two fighters (36 MCr, TL 9) could fire 9 nuclear missiles each. That’s a lot of damage to a would-be pirate even if only 3 of the 18 missiles hit.

 

[atpollard]

Just to point out the obvious, that's hardly a sporting "warning shot" old chap :smirk:

After watching three ships jump out of their grasp following the traditional warning shot, the crew ejected the captain and appointed someone 'less sporting'.

 

[atpollard]

Without damaging the valuables you want or simply causing the whole thing to blow up. This isn't going to work for a grab and run it's more the standard commerce hit and run causing damage without taking any.

So I can only loot one ship in six - I can live with that.

 

[far-trader]

After watching three ships jump out of their grasp following the traditional warning shot, the crew ejected the captain and appointed someone 'less sporting'.

Arr, there's a crew wot knows the socre.

So I can only loot one ship in six - I can live with that.

Keyword being "live" and yes said tactic should help there. Just have to watch out for those Merchies wot gots guns a thar own.

Of course, with a record of 5 in 6 being simply harpooned and not taken you tend to draw all that unwanted "Imperial entanglements" that can be hazardous to your business to get to that 1 in 6 payoff.

Nice bit of the wait till they head out tactic is you can wait* for the ship that isn't armed and you know what they have in the way of valuables as well. Being able to pick your target and knowing when they will be leaving are good bits.

EDIT - hehe, there's s'posed to be a little asterisked note here somewhere...

* at least for as long as you can afford to wait, how long can you sit in the dark and cold of space before the crew starts getting itchy, how long will your supplies last, and so on...

 

[Golan2072]

Five fighters cost about the same as a Subsidized Merchant or 2.5 Free Traders. The world that cannot afford 100 million credits worth of defense should probably be happy for the protection offered by a pirate ship conquering the planet. How does a world attract a merchant ship when the merchant ship costs more than the entire Planetary Navy?

Even two fighters (36 MCr, TL 9) could fire 9 nuclear missiles each. That’s a lot of damage to a would-be pirate even if only 3 of the 18 missiles hit.

This makes Hard Times a pirate's paradise: on one hand, many world's starports, ground sensor arrays and local navy are either greatly reduced in capacity, totally dead, or requisitioned by a nearby faction, leaving the world open to piracy and even ground raids; on the other hand, pirates still have a good chance of having a working ship at their disposal (especially a military ship gone AWOL) than in TNE. Stable situations are bad for pirates; periods of instability and imbalance are good for their interests.

 

[BillDowns]

For my two-cents (or is that 2/100 CR?), I would go for a party of men taking passage, and hit the target on the way out. It strikes me as possible to pull it off without the planet's defenses knowing about it at all.

 

[robject]

...the threat of the Pirate destroying the Passenger Ship might keep the fighters from attacking...

Mebbe. If there are fighters, they may well be Imperial, not local, like the starport likely is, in which case The Book might just say "terrorists are not to be bargained with".