Planetary Navies and Starports

[morfydd]

Scout Base

May be adjacent to the starport ..but will have its own far port further out ..probably midway from the Nadir Jump point and a gas giant or fuel source ..not open to the public ..capable of refitting most scout vessels..tech level of the scout base will be that of the bulk of the ship's used by the service..(11 or 13 for imperial) regardless of local tech

 

[atpollard]

May be adjacent to the starport ..but will have its own far port further out ..probably midway from the Nadir Jump point and a gas giant or fuel source ..not open to the public ..capable of refitting most scout vessels..tech level of the scout base will be that of the bulk of the ship's used by the service..(11 or 13 for imperial) regardless of local tech

Just for the sake of clarity, do you have any rules references behind all of your recent 'base' statements, or are you just stating opinions?

[I'm not trying to reign you in, I just wanted to know what I am looking at.]

 

[rancke]

If a Class C starport did have refined fuel and could construct spaceships or any size, it would be a Class B starport.

Though a starport with refined fuel that couldn't build spaceships would be a Class C.

Starports aren't built to the labels, that is no one says "Let's build a Class C port!". What happens is a port is built or additions made are and then the SPA/IISS investigates, inspects, and eventually decides which of the six labels available best fit the results. You can build to Class C specifications, but whether those specs are actually met or not and whether or not your port will receive a Class C rating is not up to you at all.

Perhaps one could say that it's strange that a starport can get rated as a Routine Starport (i.e. Class C) without having refined fuel available.


Hans

 

[morfydd]

Just for the sake of clarity, do you have any rules references behind all of your recent 'base' statements, or are you just stating opinions?

[I'm not trying to reign you in, I just wanted to know what I am looking at.]

Mostly just my opinion ..some has refernces but would take me a bit to look up...I just expounded on what was there and added in basic Military Doctrine (Spec Ops has the Great Gear Grunts get last wars leftovers)..

Naval Bases are numerous ..but varied in theri capacity ..but all can do minor refits to major ships and complete rebuilds to escort ships.for carriers ..its Norfolk or Anaheim.for refuels and major work..that and mothball fleets are kept at depots as well ..well mostly..

as to the tech level capacity of the bases well no point in having a Major refit and storage facility if it cannot take care of the fleets ship's..Normal Naval Bases well they dont have to handel all the ship's just the escorts

 

[RKFM]

Perhaps one could say that it's strange that a starport can get rated as a Routine Starport (i.e. Class C) without having refined fuel available.

I missed the beginning of this topic in the other thread, but this is a good point.

E - The IISS has surveyed the world, an appropriate commerical landing site has been chosen, suitable for all local, environmental, and stability reasons. Though the world doesn't rate an actual Starport installation the IISS has left a marker beacon to guide landings and broadcast the world's membership as Imperial and note the extratrality of the area around the beacon.

For examples think dirt strip landing fields in outback regions that rarely see an airplane and when one does fly in locals gather to see what it brought, maybe even to trade.

X - The IISS has made a survey of the world but for whatever reason it has been deemed it should not to be landed on. No reasons are specified and visitors would be well advised to not attempt a landing. Beyond whatever good reason(s) the IISS saw fit for not allowing commercial/civilian traffic landing, there is no marked site so you could very well sink in soft ground upon landing, park in the middle of a (not so) dormant volcano, land on a sinkhole and be swallowed up, leave the ship in the middle of a flood channel and find only a wet spot where the ship was when you return, etc., etc.

Class X is land at your own (implied serious) peril. The only thing in aviation it is akin to is maybe an emergency landing, in the sense that there is no good place to land, but it usually beats crashing.

I never saw X class starports as being somehow dangerous or not recommended. I just saw the difference between E and X as E has some kind of facility for landing/logging. Think "Mission on Mithril". X class starports simply have no recognized landing site. After all, LBB7 allows you to get speculative goods from an X class port (Landing in a field to buy some Kudbeck steaks from the locals).

 

[far-trader]

I never saw X class starports as being somehow dangerous or not recommended.

I vaguely recall some hazard avoidance roll in one of the early CT adventures for landing away from a Starport/Class X that implied peril simply by trying to set a ship down. Or I made it up so long ago it's blurred into my common CT mythology At least a civilian (commercial/private) ship. Military of course would have the sensors to deal with wilderness landings.

 

[morfydd]

Starports

Class A - Has facilities for refits and repairs, Good (easy to use) commercial services, a place to relax, a place to get new passengers and cargo, refined fuel, and lastly the defining factor a shipyard capable of producing commercial jump capable ships that are available for travellers to procure from..
That being said the shipyard does not have to be able to build Tigress Class Dreadnaughts for the starport to be class A ..it may only be able to handle building jump ships under 2500 tons due to lack of labor force etc...(look at the UPP world with a class A starport and population (5-) is not likely to be building dreadnaught's (note there is always the odd exception ie a population 4 world that has 10 times its population in Labor bots doing all the dirty work just might pull it off but thats dependant on Referee determined factors and should not be the norm..) (Also note not every ship type may be avaible from a given yard either ..they might specialize in building one or two classes of ship that again is a Ref call..
Will Have TAS facilites, will have good security..Probably has a Highport ..may have a Far Port

Class B- Same as A just cant (not certified ..no jump drives handy etc) build jump capable ships. May Have TAS facilites, Will have acceptable security. May have a High Port.

Class-C Same as B facilities are still good refits can be done as well as reapirs ..can have small craft comissioned..(That warehouse on the end there ..yea they assemble a few small craft inside or we have factories that produce everykind of concivable small craft you might want..) may or may not have refined fuel will have unrefined avaible. Not Likely to have a TAS office. Iffy on having acceptable security, (might have it might not) Unlikely to have a highport.

Class-D no yard facilites ..minimal repair facilties (If Billy bob cant fix it right he can make it go enough to get you to a good repair yard..) Probably wont have refined fule will have unrefined, may have rest and recreation facilties present, Wont Have a TAS office. Not likely to have acceptable security.
No highport.

Class-E a Beacon on a safe landing area, May have Fuel nearby, May have some off port rec facilties, Iffy on repair facilities, not likely to have much in the way of security (Park at your own risk..The Imperium is not responsible for lost or stolen goods) High Port ehh waht is that?

Class X a beacon in orbit ...may or may not have info on good landing areas ..info may or may not be in date..

 

[Hemdian]

The Core Route website is temporarily (hopefully) offline at the moment but you can still find bits of it in the WayBackMachine. Anyway, there was a conversation recorded there beween Clifford Linehan (the site's owner) and Marc Miller relevant to what is a class E and class X starport. Here's the key fragment:

Clifford Linehan: The galaxy map you gave me shows an area on the path that is marked "Zone of Barren Worlds". What is this zone?

Marc Miller: A place where 99% of the worlds are of the form ENNN000-0 (where N is random).

Clifford Linehan: I understand. Would gas giants be generated normally in the Barren Zone?

Marc Miller: All worlds are generated normally, but Pop is automatically set at 0 (and so on). The "Zone of Barren Worlds" does not refer to only zho, it means there is no intelligent life on most of them, thus ENNN000-0. I use E (hard bnedrock and little else for a spaceport) rather than X which doesn't mean "no spaceport" but instead "no one allowed in (by some interdicting authority)."

Clifford Linehan: So all planets in the barren zone have starport E unless there is something special about it that the authorities don't want you there.

Marc Miller: Right

 

[Whipsnade]

Though a starport with refined fuel that couldn't build spaceships would be a Class C.

Hans,

Yup. To be rated "Class B" a starport has to do both. More importantly, to be rated "Class B" a starport has to prove it can do both to the satisfaction of others.

Guess what? I believe there are Class C ports that can provide refined fuel and can perform repairs. They aren't Class B ports because they haven't yet finished the certification process. What's more, I believe there are Class B ports who are either in danger of losing their certification or should have had it pulled already.

I just can't see the 11,000 starport codes from 1065's Second Survey remaining fixed for all that time. I know S:3, SMC, and RSB show very little "churn" or "movement" among those codes, but I don't buy it, especially given the Fifth Frontier War. Ports in the warzones, the Jewell, Regina, Lanth, and trailing Sword Worlds subsectors, should all have damaged port listings in SMC. GT:Starports does this with Louzy and I think SMC should have done it with many more ports.

Perhaps one could say that it's strange that a starport can get rated as a Routine Starport (i.e. Class C) without having refined fuel available.

What's wrong with Class C ports being routine? And what's really wrong with unrefined fuel? Statistically speaking, if you have the engineers you're supposed to have and if you've kept up with your maintenance, you've got a one in 36 chance of having a drive failure or misjump solely because of unrefined fuel. If the GM rules you have a military or paramilitary craft or drives, you'll never have a drive failure or misjump due solely to unrefined fuel. If your vessel has a purifier, and most post-HG2 designs do, you'll never have a drive failure or misjump solely due to unrefined fuel either.

If you really fret about unrefined fuel availability, you can simply more narrowly interpret the fuel aspects of the various port ratings. A port can only be said to provide fuel when it does so at the set Imperial price of 500Cr per ton for refined and 100Cr per ton for unrefined. If a port provides refined fuel at 600Cr, 550Cr, or 501Cr per ton, it can't meet the prerequisites for the Class B rating and so remains with a C rating.

Seeing as the IISS/SPA have all of six different codes with which to rate every starport in Chartered Space, I have no problem with those ratings being broad or fuzzy around the edges. I also think the six ratings neatly step up through varying levels of complexity.

You can see each of a starport's four areas of competence - landing, fuel, repairs, and construction - dealt with in a progressive manner:

Class X - No formally designated landing area, no fuel, no repairs, no construction.
Class E - Formally designated landing area, no fuel, no repairs, no construction.
Class D - Formally designated landing area, unrefined fuel, no repairs, no construction.
Class C - Formally designated landing area, unrefined fuel, repairs, no construction.
Class B - Formally designated landing area, refined fuel, repairs, limited construction.
Class A - Formally designated landing area, refined fuel, repairs, full construction.

As you can see, each rating indicates a change in at least one of the four areas of competency. That's both a well thought out and nicely concise system to describe a greatly detailed topic, something that is a hallmark of GDW's design of the game.


Regards,
Bill

 

[savage]

Depot

Okay odds are a Naval Depot is not near the mainwolrd in the system and is defiantly Navy only..Its tech level will be that of the fleet its servicing Not the Tech level of the System its in..<they may use local labor but...>

Naval Base..May have a portion near the starport .. thou odds are it has its own Highport ..thats well guarded and defiantly has its own repair and yard facilities..

A Depot is noted as a "system wide" facility controlled by the navy. The mainworld hosts, works for, and lives off of military trade. Bases, starports, test ranges, the works.
Definition of a Depot

I put this on my gamesite but here is a copy and source.
Naval Depots are huge harboring area for starships, naval personnel, and supporting services. A depot typically encompasses and entire star system and has an unlimited capacity for starships. The Navy provides three distinct services to its ships at depot: maintenance (...), personnel (...), and training.
Depots stand constantly available to repair and return to service battle-damaged ships in a minimum time.
--- page 33 Rebellion sourcebook.

 

[Theophilus]

I suppose the only other alternative is to go to a more detailed rating system:

A.1 has this
A.2 has this

B.1 has this
B.2
etc.
etc.

Of course then you have to list every thing. A.1 has a McQuicky's Burger Joint, Alas, it has closed so now your a A.2

 

[robject]

More in the style of Traveller would be to list "codes" after the class.

C Or Re "C-class starport with an orbital component and a fuel refinery"

 

[rancke]

I just can't see the 11,000 starport codes from 1065's Second Survey remaining fixed for all that time. I know S:3, SMC, and RSB show very little "churn" or "movement" among those codes, but I don't buy it, especially given the Fifth Frontier War. Ports in the warzones, the Jewell, Regina, Lanth, and trailing Sword Worlds subsectors, should all have damaged port listings in SMC. GT:Starports does this with Louzy and I think SMC should have done it with many more ports.

I agree, up to a point. SMC should have downrated a carefully selected number of starports (And mentioned why and that it was only a temporary condition). But Louzy was Class D before the war, so Starports put itself squarely between two chairs. It should either have left Louzy's starport rating alone and explained why it wasn't any better or done a full retcon and said that Louzy's starport used to be Class IV before the war, was bombed down to Class II for a while, and has been brought back up to Class IV by now, ten years after the war!

What's wrong with Class C ports being routine?

Nothing. That the definition of a C classification, that's all. 'C: Routine quality installation'. As in ordinary, of common quality, rank, or ability.

Considering the relatively low investment needed to set up a fuel purification plant and the profits you can make[*], I was questioning the likelihood that a starport without purified fuel would really be regarded as the common quality.


[*] I once calculated that you could process unrefined fuel for Cr5 per dT. Even if you do pay the full Cr100/T for unrefined fuel, you earn Cr395/T, which is not hay. One free trader per month can earn you Cr100,000 per year (Mind you, the profit would probably be less in "reality". I also calculated that Cr350/T was the breakpoint where it became cheaper for a ship to carry its own fuel purifier plant and buy unrefined fuel). Anyway, to pass up profits of that kind, you need strong motivation, such as all-pervasive religious dictatorships. Pervasive enough to intrude beyond the extrality fence! What's wrong with THAT picture?

And what's really wrong with unrefined fuel? Statistically speaking, if you have the engineers you're supposed to have and if you've kept up with your maintenance, you've got a one in 36 chance of having a drive failure or misjump solely because of unrefined fuel. If the GM rules you have a military or paramilitary craft or drives, you'll never have a drive failure or misjump due solely to unrefined fuel. If your vessel has a purifier, and most post-HG2 designs do, you'll never have a drive failure or misjump solely due to unrefined fuel either.

It's not whether the PC's ship buys unrefined fuel or not. All it takes is enough regular traffic that does buy refined fuel. Since any regularly sheduled liner or freighter that does use unrefined fuel without a military grade jump drive can expect one misjump per year on the average, I feel safe in assuming it wouldn't be SOP.

If you really fret about unrefined fuel availability, you can simply more narrowly interpret the fuel aspects of the various port ratings. A port can only be said to provide fuel when it does so at the set Imperial price of 500Cr per ton for refined and 100Cr per ton for unrefined. If a port provides refined fuel at 600Cr, 550Cr, or 501Cr per ton, it can't meet the prerequisites for the Class B rating and so remains with a C rating.

Maybe it looses it's rating if it sells for Cr350/T?

Seeing as the IISS/SPA have all of six different codes with which to rate every starport in Chartered Space, I have no problem with those ratings being broad or fuzzy around the edges.

Me neither. I just think the edges are in the wrong places.

I also think the six ratings neatly step up through varying levels of complexity.

You can see each of a starport's four areas of competence - landing, fuel, repairs, and construction - dealt with in a progressive manner:

Class X - No formally designated landing area, no fuel, no repairs, no construction.
Class E - Formally designated landing area, no fuel, no repairs, no construction.
Class D - Formally designated landing area, unrefined fuel, no repairs, no construction.
Class C - Formally designated landing area, unrefined fuel, repairs, no construction.
Class B - Formally designated landing area, refined fuel, repairs, limited construction.
Class A - Formally designated landing area, refined fuel, repairs, full construction.

As you can see, each rating indicates a change in at least one of the four areas of competency. That's both a well thought out and nicely concise system to describe a greatly detailed topic, something that is a hallmark of GDW's design of the game.

Interesting. That's not what I see when I consider the formal differences in starport ratings. What I see is:

Difference between Class A and Class B: Being able to install a jump drive in the ships the shipyard builds.

Difference between Class B and Class C: Being able to build ships or not. Being able to perform annual maintenance or not. Being able to perform major repairs or not. Being able to supply refine fuel or not.

Difference between Class C and Class D: Being able to perform minor repairs or not.

Difference between Class D and Class E: Being able to provide unrefined fuel or not.

So who are these ratings for, anyway? To 99.9999% of the population, the difference between Class A and B is completely moot. The only people who'd be interested are prospective shipowners, and I really think they'd study more than a starport rating before deciding where to place their order.

Difference between B and C, now... lot's of people would be interested in that, and in just which of the many criteria caused the difference.


Hans

 

[atpollard]

Hans,
I completely agree with you on "what should be" with respect to unrefined and refined fuel. Unrefined fuel requires a natural water body or a windmill powered water well - how hard is that to provide even at TL 1! A class E starport should have unrefined fuel (IMHO and IMTU).

Refined fuel requires a power plant and a fuel purifier. It is hard to imagine a starport without a power plant (or connection to the planetary power grid) - even the class E starport landing beacon needs some power. Purifiers cost a mere 40,000 credits at TL 8 (TL of introduction), making it hard to explain why any reasonable starport could not afford one. Heck, the 'ubiqitous air/raft' costs a lot more than that!

I also calculated that Cr350/T was the breakpoint where it became cheaper for a ship to carry its own fuel purifier plant and buy unrefined fuel).

I love that kind of analysis, but wouldn't the 'breakpoint' vary with the size of the ship, TL and Jump range?
I'd love to see your calculations if you wanted to split off a new topic.

So who are these ratings for, anyway? To 99.9999% of the population, the difference between Class A and B is completely moot. The only people who'd be interested are prospective shipowners, and I really think they'd study more than a starport rating before deciding where to place their order.

Difference between B and C, now... lot's of people would be interested in that, and in just which of the many criteria caused the difference.

Hans

**IMTU ALERT**
I like this progression for minimum facilities:

Class X = stay away
Class E = add beacon and landing area (no personel)
________add unrefined fuel if planet has water (Hyd 1+).
class D = add facilities (control tower, warehouse and unrefined fuel*)
class C = add Small Craft construction, Starship repair and Refined fuel
class B = add Non-starship construction
class A = add Starship construction.

* For class D, I would add Refined fuel if the TL was 8+.

 

[dean]

Hans,
**IMTU ALERT**
I like this progression for minimum facilities:

Class X = stay away
Class E = add beacon and landing area (no personel)
________add unrefined fuel if planet has water (Hyd 1+).
class D = add facilities (control tower, warehouse and unrefined fuel*)
class C = add Small Craft construction, Starship repair and Refined fuel
class B = add Non-starship construction
class A = add Starship construction.

* For class D, I would add Refined fuel if the TL was 8+.

I think this is perfect.

 

[rancke]

I completely agree with you on "what should be" with respect to unrefined and refined fuel. Unrefined fuel requires a natural water body or a windmill powered water well - how hard is that to provide even at TL 1! A class E starport should have unrefined fuel (IMHO and IMTU).

A starport on an Earthlike world should have water nearby, no question there. But some worlds won't have water freely available, so you need your classifications to account for that.

**IMTU ALERT**
I like this progression for minimum facilities:

Class X = stay away
Class E = add beacon and landing area (no personel)
________add unrefined fuel if planet has water (Hyd 1+).
class D = add facilities (control tower, warehouse and unrefined fuel*)
class C = add Small Craft construction, Starship repair and Refined fuel
class B = add Non-starship construction
class A = add Starship construction.

* For class D, I would add Refined fuel if the TL was 8+.

I'd suggest this instead:

Class X = stay away
Class E = Minimum beacon and landing area.
class D = Minimum manned facilities (control tower, warehouse and unrefined fuel
class C = Minimum reasonable repair and refined fuel
class B = Minimum Annual maintenance and major repairs
class A = Shipyard present.

For one thing, why is the difference between non-starships ans starships important? Sure, from a wargamers perspective it is quite interesting to know if a world can build its own starships or not, but the HG rule about governments being able to construct starships if the TL is high enough rather makes that point moot.

For another, what is the difference between a yard that is capable of installing a jump drive and one that isn't? If a ship shows up at New Rome with a jump drive in its cargo hold and asks the yard there to swap the old one for the one in the hold, would the yard really be unable to do so? And if a customer asks them to build build him a starship, would they say, "Sorry, we can't do that because no one in the system manufactures jump drives", or would they say, "Sure, but we'll have to order the jump drive from Glisten, so the price will be Cr8000 more... tell you what, we'll eat the transport charges"?

Also, removing boatyards from Class B starports will help explain a lot of UWPs where you have a Class B starport an not enough customers in the system to keep a boatyard running...


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Class X = stay away
Class E = add beacon and landing area (no personel)
________add unrefined fuel if planet has water (Hyd 1+).
class D = add facilities (control tower, warehouse and unrefined fuel*)
class C = add Small Craft construction, Starship repair and Refined fuel
class B = add Non-starship construction
class A = add Starship construction.

* For class D, I would add Refined fuel if the TL was 8+.

AT,

That's a nice list, but it gives rise to it's own quibbles just like the canonical list does. Along the edges, your list can be just as arbitrary. Look at Small Craft construction from example.

So, Class C ports can build spacecraft under 100dTons and Class B ports can build spacecraft over 100dtons. What's the real difference between a 99dTon shuttle and a 100dTon jump-less seeker then? Why should a pop code 6 Class B port be able to build and sell a 400dTon Dragon-class SDB while a pop 9 Class C port can only build and sell a 50dTon fighter?

Edges are edges, no matter what defines them, and they'll always create quibbles.

I'm perplexed about the many complaints regarding unrefined fuel. There seems to be a lot of assumptions at work here, few of which are supported by the original rules.

The use of unrefined fuel is not some immediate death sentence. Only commercial craft need to worry and only when the GM decides they don't have "military" or "paramilitary" drives. Commercial craft also have a 1 in 36 chance per week of a drive failure when using it. What's more, as page 6 of LBB:2 clearly states, a jump drive failure can happen in two ways, one of which doesn't involve jumping at all. You roll for drive failures weekly and you roll for misjumps when jumping. Unrefined fuel can cause either a failed jump or a misjump.

The risks associated with unrefined fuel are completely in line with all the other in-game risks presented in Traveller. CT (in)famously has death in chargen and the Low Berth Lottery. A 1 in 36 chance of drive failures through unrefined fuel use in certain drive types just another example.

While merchant lines and other organizations may not accept these risks, Traveller originally assumed that the players wouldn't be part of such groups. In-game organizations seemingly avoid the problems associated with unrefined fuel use either by stockpiling refined fuel for their own use, just like Al Morai, or upgrading their drives. There is nothing preventing the players from doing the same and their desire to do so provides the GM with a plot hook. As I see it and as with many other things in Traveller, unrefined fuel is simply a built-in plot hook.

With regards to water as unrefined fuel, LBB:2 mentions it after gas giants and in it's own sentence. That sentence too only mentions oceans, although I'm not suggesting that only ocean water can used. What I am suggesting is that water isn't used as "raw" as we would like to assume, that a Class C port's fuel farm isn't always just a sign post to the nearest swamp.

The point I'm trying to make is that fuel, like any other starport service, is an opportunity for the GM to customize their personal TU. The descriptions we have of port services are deliberately vague and minimalist. A port should be more than a look up on a treasure table.


Regards,
Bill

P.S. For various real world and in-game reasons, I'd remove starship repair from your list of Class C capabilities.

 

[far-trader]

Generally agree with much of what everyone is saying. Minor quibbling...

...Unrefined fuel requires a natural water body or a windmill powered water well - how hard is that to provide even at TL 1! A class E starport should have unrefined fuel (IMHO and IMTU).

Somebody has to grease the pump gears And dig the well. And... all too much work and expense for a Class E that might see a ship once a year. If there's a body of water why bother with the convenience of storing it for ships, make them do their own dipping (and mind the Kraken ).

I've always pictured Class E as nobody looks after the place, at all (in situ). Just an automated beacon with a solar panel that the IISS dropped (sometimes literally) and some poor IISS (probably DD) Scout drops by once every few months or years to see if it's still working. They don't even land if they get the signal from 100d.

 

[rancke]

I've always pictured Class E as nobody looks after the place, at all (in situ). Just an automated beacon with a solar panel that the IISS dropped (sometimes literally) and some poor IISS (probably DD) Scout drops by once every few months or years to see if it's still working. They don't even land if they get the signal from 100d.

This is a description of a Class E starport on Danelag, a world in Reaver's Deep, from "Hellion's Hoard", one of my adventures:

"The starport is a large concrete-covered field located about two kilometers outside the city, with one small cinder-block hut containing the beacon. A small, neat wooden shack like a bus shelter stands next to it. Inside are a few wooden benches and a telephone mounted on the wall. A sign reads: "Please call the port captain upon arrival" in a dozen different languages."​

Hans

 

[aramis]

More than one E-Port IMTU is a large cleared field, with a grounded Type S as the port "facilities" at one edge of the field.