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Planetary Navies and Starports

A starport on an Earthlike world should have water nearby, no question there. But some worlds won't have water freely available, so you need your classifications to account for that.

Agreed to a point. On the other hand, both methane and ammonia contain about as much Hydrogen as water, so how many of those 'non-earth' worlds just need to melt the 'snow' to obtain unrefined fuel? And what powers the life support on these non-earth worlds if they do not have a 'Hydrogen economy'?

While there are undoubatly some worlds that would not have access to 'unrefined fuel', they are GREATLY in the minority.


For one thing, why is the difference between non-starships ans starships important? Sure, from a wargamers perspective it is quite interesting to know if a world can build its own starships or not, but the HG rule about governments being able to construct starships if the TL is high enough rather makes that point moot.

For another, what is the difference between a yard that is capable of installing a jump drive and one that isn't? If a ship shows up at New Rome with a jump drive in its cargo hold and asks the yard there to swap the old one for the one in the hold, would the yard really be unable to do so? And if a customer asks them to build build him a starship, would they say, "Sorry, we can't do that because no one in the system manufactures jump drives", or would they say, "Sure, but we'll have to order the jump drive from Glisten, so the price will be Cr8000 more... tell you what, we'll eat the transport charges"?

An interesting concept that has many merits at first glance.
I'll need to give this more thought.

Also, removing boatyards from Class B starports will help explain a lot of UWPs where you have a Class B starport an not enough customers in the system to keep a boatyard running...

Hans


Personally, I think that it is a mistake to place the starport type at the beginning of planetary generation. I grow weary of rationalizing why a high-pop, industrial world has a class C starport and the POP 3 world near it has a class A. :nonono:
 
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AT,
That's a nice list, but it gives rise to it's own quibbles just like the canonical list does.

Absolutely no argument from me on this and most of what you said. The list was just my comfort zone based on which tropes (many from the Ford SPA article) I prefer to emphasize.

I'm perplexed about the many complaints regarding unrefined fuel. There seems to be a lot of assumptions at work here, few of which are supported by the original rules. [snip]

While merchant lines and other organizations may not accept these risks, Traveller originally assumed that the players wouldn't be part of such groups. In-game organizations seemingly avoid the problems associated with unrefined fuel use either by stockpiling refined fuel for their own use, just like Al Morai, or upgrading their drives. There is nothing preventing the players from doing the same and their desire to do so provides the GM with a plot hook. As I see it and as with many other things in Traveller, unrefined fuel is simply a built-in plot hook.

Under LBB 2, only 'military drives' were designed to use unrefined fuel, with no real guidelines for 'upgrading drives'. This was (IMHO) a feature of the rules and not particularly a problem.

With LBB5, the fuel purifier is quantified ... and it is dirt cheap!

The 'problem' with a prevalance of unrefined fuel is not fundamentaly a game issue (as you say, the risk is minimal - less than a pirate attack). It is, rather, a strain on the metagame fabric of credibility. If one views the Imperium as a vast and active trade network, dominated by large commercial lines with the humble Free Trader trying to squeeze out a living ('Firefly' style), then the lack of refined fuel for the big guys (when the refinery is so cheap) strains credibility.

Imagine the Free Trader as a courier travelling the Highways with a pickup truck taking small loads to all of the places that are uneconomical for the big 18 wheelers. Now imagine that the MAJORITY of Truck Stops along the Highway do not sell Diesel Fuel. Clearly the little pickup can live without diesel since non-diesel pickups are the norm. But why should most of the big rigs be forced to convert from diesel? It just seems wrong.

P.S. For various real world and in-game reasons, I'd remove starship repair from your list of Class C capabilities.
I think that repairs are an official class C capability in every version of Traveller that I am familiar with, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on why it should be removed.
 
Under LBB 2, only 'military drives' were designed to use unrefined fuel, with no real guidelines for 'upgrading drives'. This was (IMHO) a feature of the rules and not particularly a problem.

AT,

Agreed.

With LBB5, the fuel purifier is quantified ... and it is dirt cheap!

LBB:5 is part of the problem, as I'll explain below.

The 'problem' with a prevalance of unrefined fuel is not fundamentaly a game issue (as you say, the risk is minimal - less than a pirate attack). It is, rather, a strain on the metagame fabric of credibility. If one views the Imperium as a vast and active trade network, dominated by large commercial lines with the humble Free Trader trying to squeeze out a living ('Firefly' style), then the lack of refined fuel for the big guys (when the refinery is so cheap) strains credibility.

It all depends on just what "imperium" of "Imperium" you're viewing. You see, CT is schizoid on a fundamental level and LBB:5 is the "facial tick" that announces this.

Before LBB:5 a "small" setting assumed, small ships, small trade volume, small government(s), and the rules were written accordingly. Our description of a Class C port and unrefined fuel rules date from that "small" period. Then LBB:5 comes along, "big" is now the assumption, and the old stuff was never retconned.

We have a big ship, big trade volume, big government(s) setting now with small ships, small trade volume, small government(s) port descriptions and fuel rules. You're "No Diesel At Truck Stops?" analogy for the Third Imperium is excellent but the rules were written for something entirely different. (This is yet another reason why I laugh aloud when people claim that Traveller was originally setting free.)

In the setting of the First Three LBBs, the lack of refined fuel at Class C ports isn't a strain on the fabric of credulity because there isn't that much trade passing through Class C ports and the trade that does will be primarily handled by shipping assets that have their own private refined fuel available.

That last part is important. Starport codes only refer to those facilities and services that are available to everyone. We know that the military and lines like Al Morai provide for their own services where none are otherwise available and we know that corporations even have their own private ports. In the "small", First Three LBB Traveller setting, that was enough. It was only after LBB:5 inflated the setting that Class C ports and unrefined fuel became a problem.

I think that repairs are an official class C capability in every version of Traveller that I am familiar with, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on why it should be removed.

My error. I conflated Hans' addition to annual maintenance capabilities to Class C ports with your post and objected accordingly.

A large part of my career has involved following relatively technologically sophisticated equipment to it's new home in what should kindly be called the "less developed" portions of our world. Let's just say that this experience has given me a unique appreciation for the awesome differences between being able to own something and being able to operate something. I view techniques, skills, and culture as far more important than tools and parts and thus are loathe to allow the maintenance of items such as jump drives to be on a wide scale.


Regards,
Bill
 
Bill,

I have to agree with you on the loathe to let anyone fix it mentality. After converting a couple old destroyers to Powerplants then "training" an operation and maintance crew in its new home I became a bit jaded over various cultures mechaincal ineptitude. (Don't get me wrong they have their skills and their own technology that gets the job done but you do not give natives a steam engine and expect them to actaully fix it .) Teaching them how to make windmills (out of local materails) and how to produce electricity with car alternaters from the windmills and maintain it was much easier ...(Items they are familiar with ) ..and works for much longer ..

Mike
 
I have to agree with you on the loathe to let anyone fix it mentality. After converting a couple old destroyers to Powerplants then "training" an operation and maintance crew in its new home I became a bit jaded over various cultures mechaincal ineptitude.


Mike,

I was peripherally involved with an old USN FF being "sold" to Turkey in the early 90s. As the vessel was modified in various way for her future Turkish service, the engineering crew went through a lengthy training period on her P-style boilers and engine room machinery. I was directly involved in directing the overhaul, repair, and testing of the boiler safety valves plus other safety aspect of the other mechanical systems. When all the "eyes" were dotted and "tees" crossed, the Turks set off across the Atlantic from Charleston...

... only to be towed back in a few days later.

All in all, I visited the same frigate three times in the Charleston yards before, presumably, the frigate made it to her new home. I say presumably because we were no longer called to visit the ship and fix the valves.

As you point out, it's more a matter of familiarity or comfort than anything else. The crew in question certainly wasn't stupid.


Regards,
Bill
 
My error. I conflated Hans' addition to annual maintenance capabilities to Class C ports with your post and objected accordingly.
I didn't add annual maintenance to Class C ports. I added refined fuel to Class C and removed boat-building from Class B, partly to reduce the leap from Class C to Class B. "Reasonable repair facilities" were always part of Class C capability.

If anything, I might divide repair into three levels, 'minor' at class C, 'medium' at Class B, and 'major' at Class A. However, while I can think of an easy way to define major repairs (do you need to open up the hull to fix it? Then it's major), I can't think of a similar easy deistinction between minor and medium. Besides, IIRC, the rules only distinguishes between minor (costs 10% to fix) and major (costs 25% to fix).


Hans
 
It all depends on just what "imperium" of "Imperium" you're viewing. You see, CT is schizoid on a fundamental level and LBB:5 is the "facial tick" that announces this.
Part of this discussion (and most other discussions I have ;)) is what to do about the OTU in the light of 30 years worth of development. To me, there's no question that the Imperium I'm discussing is the one that's been 'growing up' for 30 years, not the one LBB1-3 started out with.

Sadly, if you'll allow me to extend the metaphor a bit, a lot of people seem to think that the kid was so cute 30 years ago, they refuse to let it grow up.


Hans
 
Hans,

Mea culpa. Blame it all on a misfiring neuron. Somehow or another I repairs and annual maintenance, along with who said what, all snarled together in what passes for my mind.

Again, sorry. :(

I want to continue limiting annual maintenance to Class A and Class B ports. I want that period of inspection, testing, repair, and certification to mean something. I want a meta-game reason to drag the players back to civilization, or something that approaches it, every so often because I don't want them skulking about in the boonies for year after year.


Regards,
Bill
 
Sadly, if you'll allow me to extend the metaphor a bit, a lot of people seem to think that the kid was so cute 30 years ago, they refuse to let it grow up.


Hans,

That's a neat metaphor.

My point is that all the descriptions and rules swirling around refined fuel, unrefined fuel, and starport capabilities were designed and written with that cute kid in mind. Then, when LBB:5 took that kid through puberty, no one bothered to re-write the kiddie stuff. Our rules and descriptions regarding refined fuel, unrefined fuel, and starport capabilities remained the same while the kid did not.

Using AT's metaphor, it made sense when trade volumes were low not to have diesel at every filling station. However, when trade volumes were inflated post-LBB:5, diesel needs to be available in more places.


Regards,
Bill
 
IMTU:

X - No marked landing site. This doesn't mean that no site exists, but you need to find it, survey it and test it yourself. No fuel or facilities are provided, but you can always find and/or set up your own.

E - Landing site surveyed and marked with a beacon. Site is unmanned. No fuel or facilities are provided. There may be a scrap ship acting as an unmanned 'mountain rescue hut' to aid your short term survival if you're lucky. Water for fuel may be available on-world, but not necessarily close to the designated landing site, and there is no provision for extracting it or transporting it. You need to dip, scoop and extract your own fuel, and watch out for the fish, weeds and algae...

D - Designated landing site with a small manned facility. Billy-Bob's Garage/Diner will maybe have a few hull-patches and other emergency supplies, and provide you with on-site extracted fuel with the local flora and fauna filtered out of it (hopefully). He doesn't provide refined fuel because even if he provided it, his customers would (sensibly) put it through their own purifiers anyway just to be sure, and haggle his price down accordingly, so why go to the trouble and have all the quality control jobsworths on his back all the time? Ships without purifiers don't call here anyways...

C - A starport proper. No longer a family business, this is an enterprising community with engineering facilities and fuel storage available. Facilities are insufficient for a complete overhaul, rebuild or construction. Most ships fuelling here have their own purifiers and it is seldom worth the extra tankage, quality control and paperwork to provide refined fuel.
Some class C ports may provide it on demand, or if on a well-traversed route may stock it, but supply of refined fuel cannot be guaranteed.

B- A good quality installation guaranteeing provision of refined fuel and having the facilities to dry-dock, overhaul, refit and build starship hulls and drives. It is unlikely that there will be the local know-how to install and certify a jump-drive, even if the parts were available. [Handwave warning] Jump drives are notoriously difficult to build and install, even though they are relatively straightforward to repair and maintain.

A - An excellent facility capable of providing every service to commercial starships.
 
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