Pondering starship evolution

[Spinward Flow]

CARGO BOX 1
The Cargo Box, when loaded internally, is usually kept at the aft end of the upper deck aft hangar bay and can be loaded with a variety of cargo loads. It can also be easily converted for the transport of interstellar mail and/or vehicles.
47. Cargo Hold. Access to the cargo hold is either through the large pressure doors for loading/unloading or through the unpowered hatches intended for personnel access. Vertical access is possible using a grav lift platform from another Box or Pod docked above/below through the iris valves in the hull, but there is no grav lift shaft equipment blocking the center of the cargo hold so this central shaft space can be used for cargo transport. One of the more common conversions of this volume is to install a 5 ton Mail Vault for the transport of X-Mail between contracted Postal Unions. Another conversion is to install either one to three 4 ton Air/Raft vehicle berth(s) (preferred for cargo marshaling at austere locations) and/or one to two 6 ton Speeder vehicle berth(s) (preferred for high passenger transport services).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Aw ... crumbs ...

Miscounted my numbering (somehow) just before getting halfway through ... ... which then cascades into being a problem for everything else afterwards.

Guess I'm just going to have to do this image (AGAIN) and try not to mess up the numbering this time.

Still living the "dream" of Traveller Errata Must Be Memorialized ...

 

[Spinward Flow]

Sounds like a Pullman room with seating that converts to a bed, and fold down bed above.

That Pullman Room design looks rather ... compelling ... I wonder if I ought to redesign my Stateroom Boxes in such a way as to make better use of 3D space using that particular format (bed area above, sitting area below). Starts getting into "half deck" layout stuff, but should make for a compelling space efficiency alternative.



And if I'm going to be doing yet another(!) redesign of the interior spaces of the Stateroom Boxes (with Lounge and with Infirmary), I might as well "go back to basics" and see if I can shift around the Fresher space (at all) for slightly better utilization of the available space.



Which prompted me to dive back into the raw Geomorphs to see what shenanigans I might be able to get up to and realized I can do THIS by stitching some parts and pieces together out of the Misc category (not yet scaled for use in my own deck plans yet) to put into the Lounge space instead of a Holo Table with 3 chairs in the corner (which never felt all that right).

This way, if I ever want to make a room with 4 Holo Table Booths in the 4 corners of the room, I've got an appropriate source component to begin scaling tests with in order to make everything "fit" properly on the deck plan image.

Welp ... back to the drawing board Preview app.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Previous iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design:

First step in new iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design ,,,

Getting the "holo booth" to "do that" required some interesting edits to delete 1 seat from each end (to achieve the semicircle of seating on the 45º corner), but I like how it provides both better seating area to table space while also offering better walk area in the rest of the room.

If I go ahead with an "over bed/under sitting area" in the stateroom spaces, using the "ladder" icon at the bed, I might be able to expand the area spent on the fresher.

One of the factors I've been using with my Bed icons has been that I need them to be 70 pixels long (not including closet, just the bed). At 1.5m per 60 pixels, that makes the beds 70/60*1.5=1.75m long = ~68.9 inches long = 5 feet 9 inches long ... so the beds are too short.

I think I'm going to need to lengthen the Bed icons out to be 86 pixels long.
86/60*1.5=2.15m long = 84.6 inches long = 7 feet 0.6 inches long
Might make the beds 90 pixels long instead (90/60*1.5=2.25m long = 88.6 inches long = 7 feet 4.6 inches long).



And while that may sound like an "excessive" bed length (for native Solomani) ... but consider this.
CT World Generation does NOT bias planetary gravity towards a 1G mean (Size: 8), but instead towards a 0.625G mean (Size: 5) ... because 2D-2 tends to yield Size: 5 on average. And when people (humaniti included) grow up in low(er than 1G) gravity, what happens to them?

Exactly.
People who mature under lower gravity conditions will tend to wind up growing taller than the same species growing up under higher gravity conditions.

That means that in an interstellar commercial context, it might be wise to "standardize" sleeping space accommodations as being well in excess of what a humaniti sophont raised in a 1G surface gravity might "need" for sufficient legroom in a horizontal bed platform position in order to be able to comfortably accommodate passengers from lower gravity world environments who grow taller under their own native world environmental conditions.

So if I lengthen the Bed icons out to be 98 pixels long ...
98/60*1.5=2.45m long = 96.4 inches long = 8 feet 0.4 inches long



Also think I want to redo the windows as being 8 pixels wide instead of just being 6 pixels wide, to make them stand out from the bulkhead wall thickness a bit better. And while I'm doing that, rework the Privacy Screen from scratch, along with the Galley Counter, Stove and Washer/Dryer icons while I'm at it ...

 

[Spinward Flow]

Previous iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design:

Here's how the next iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design turned out after a lot of testing and resizing ...

Sounds like a Pullman room with seating that converts to a bed, and fold down bed above.

Used this inspiration for the stateroom spaces, although the bed above is angled 90º to the couches below in my deck plan (you can see the edge of the couches and central table between them peeking out from under the bed above). On the side opposite from the ladder up to the bunk, there is a 1.5m deep closet space behind the couch on that side. There is also another (tall) closet on the wall by the entrance into the stateroom (now an iris valve instead of a pressure door).

The idea is that the staterooms have a "loft" sleeping area above and a sitting space below under the sleeping area to sit down and relax in. For crew and/or passengers that find the ladder difficult to navigate, the gravity settings can be controlled individually inside staterooms (usually by voice command) to enable microgravity conditions that can make use of the ladder stair unnecessary, an option that some experienced spacers tend to prefer in order to achieve more restful sleep cycles.

I decided to redo the windows (to make the icons 8 pixels wide instead of only 6 pixels) and retained the privacy screens (as "radiation shielding" curtains that can be retracted).

The overall dimensions are larger (floor area and volume) than the space available in a Pullman room (as exemplified by @kilemall in the image cited above), so there's a bit more space to work with, but the stateroom volume itself is still pretty cramped (2.5x2 deck squares per stateroom+fresher).

Used new raw copy and rescale of the sink and toilet in the freshers, so they look a lot less needlessly pixelated.

What makes those "pokey little rooms" bearable for longer voyages is the Common Lounge/Galley/Laundromat space, which has a holo table booth (projector in the ceiling) that can seat 3-4 humaniti sophonts comfortably. Another retractable privacy screen separates the lounge space from the galley/laundromat space, which can be pulled around the corner behind one end of the holo booth when access to the galley and laundry services and amenities is desired. The Library program in the starship's main computer contains a large number of trideo entertainment offerings that can be enjoyed by crews and passengers alike to help pass the time while awaiting breakout from jump space and/or maneuvering to destinations in normal space. Holo table booths can also be "linked" between Stateroom Boxes when needed to make announcements and/or deliver briefings to more people than can be easily accommodated within a single Stateroom Box.



I made enough changes with this version of the Stateroom Box that I'm basically going to need to make additional changes (to match) the variant with the Infirmary and Autodoc (for which the bed needs to be bigger too).

I also made a subtle change to the DCON A/Ls that I really ought to proliferate over to the Laboratory Boxes as well (which is almost trivial and won't require much effort to implement). Once I've gotten all of those updates taken care of, I'll be able to create a NEW deck plan image for the 328 ton SIE Clipper with the updated Boxes and then start over (from scratch) on numbering everything again for an Interior Details write up specifying the contents of every single compartment aboard the starship design (ala LBB A1 The Kinunir).

 

[Spinward Flow]

Previous iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design:

Here's how the next iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design turned out after a lot of testing and resizing ... now with better Infirmary (meaning 8m long Autodoc)!

 

[Spinward Flow]

Current iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design (left) compared to the previous iteration of Stateroom Box deck plan design (right):

And here's what the space under the "bunk bed loft" looks like with the bed+ladder removed (so you can see through to what is obscured):

So what you get is a pair of couches (not chairs, couches!) facing each other across a slim table that can be used as a comfortable workspace or to hold private meetings in ("won't you walk into my parlor"). Behind one of the couches is a second (low height) storage closet for luggage and miscellaneous gear. A full height (floor to ceiling) closet is located beside the iris valve entrance into the stateroom for wardrobe hanging of garments and storage of "long" items in an upright (as opposed to horizontal) position.

By making the stateroom spaces "work in 3D" by using the "bunk loft" over a sitting area and extra closet like this, each stateroom makes better use of the available volume in each individual stateroom. Still a bit claustrophobic with the way everything needs to be crammed into every usable liter of volume, but overall it winds up being a less wasteful/more efficient use of the available deck squares and limited displacement volume.

It's also DEFINITELY superior to the prior iteration, so I'm decided that the naval architect involved with the project will be updating blueprints and plans before putting the design into production.

 

[kilemall]

One point you may be missing is that the couch area is convertible to a bed as well. Those Pullman rooms bedded 2.

The modern Amtrak versions, three additional form factors to consider….

Big difference, train travel across the US for just a few days involves station stops for fresh/smoke breaks and typically observation/dining cars. A full week and all you get are mini galleys? Civilians likely won’t do well.

High steward skill is big.

Another thought- you can design staterooms for either socializing, or privacy.

The biggest typical tradeoff would be personal fresher vs shared. Assuming you go the latter, you definitely want at least two different destinations built in. Of course the more staterooms the more social/facility possible. Probably a key one to consider is a dining and/or sitting facility only accessible by High Passage.

One design trick to consider- you might have some full fresher staterooms and some roomette/shared fresher. Then you can have a demand for the full freshers and a policy of High Passage can bump any Mid or lower out of them.

 

[Condottiere]

In zero gee, you can sleep on the wall or ceiling.

 

[TamsinP]

Couldn't the luggage/miscellaneous crap storage be under the seats of the sofas? That would make things a little less cramped.

 

[Spinward Flow]

One point you may be missing is that the couch area is convertible to a bed as well. Those Pullman rooms bedded 2.

True.
However, trains do not have the same life support constraints as starships do (go figure, eh?).

I figure that the table between the couches can be stowed and the couches "merged" to form a second bunk if necessary, but for closed loop regenerative biome life support reasons the staterooms are rated as being single occupancy. That way double occupancy is still possible but not preferred (or the default).

High steward skill is big.

Skill point for skill point, Stewards draw better pay than Medical crew (in CT).

Another thought- you can design staterooms for either socializing, or privacy.

True.
Given the constraints of the form factor (12 tons for 3 staterooms), the individual staterooms themselves are primarily concerned with privacy, but with socializing being optional in the staterooms proper. The Lounge area is more purposefully intended as a communal common area designed for socializing rather than privacy.

In zero gee, you can sleep on the wall or ceiling.

Yes, you can ... but not everyone will necessarily want to.
Additionally, if the starship has a higher gravity world as its destination, acclimating crew+passengers to the gravity level at the destination could take up to 1 week so as to minimize the opportunity for accidents when transitioning into a local world's gravity environment.

Couldn't the luggage/miscellaneous crap storage be under the seats of the sofas? That would make things a little less cramped.

There probably is some limited cubby space under the sofas. The closets are there to augment the volume of stowage/storage space available to the occupant of the stateroom. Also, consider that a vacc suit for each stateroom is going to need to be stored somewhere accessible ...

 

[coliver988]

re: vacc suit. Thought they used the rescue balls instead of the vacc suit for passengers. You just pop inside of one (somehow) and should be less chance of an issue. I feel that those things could fit into a shoebox pre-inflation.

 

[Spinward Flow]

re: vacc suit. Thought they used the rescue balls instead of the vacc suit for passengers. You just pop inside of one (somehow) and should be less chance of an issue. I feel that those things could fit into a shoebox pre-inflation.

My assumption has always been that rescue balls are intended for EVA evacuations, so they're basically "lifeboatsballs" that can be used to escape an otherwise "doomed" craft.

Travellerwiki link: Rescue Ball

As per the citations listed in the wiki article, the earliest appearance of a rescue ball was in JTAS #05, p30-31 in an article written by Loren Wiseman titled "Ship's Locker" in that issue. For the convenience of everyone reading this topic who doesn't have access to that specific issue of JTAS, here is what was written in 1980 on the topic of rescue balls.

RESCUE BALL
This item is standard on all Imperial military vessels and on most private ships as well. When folded, the rescue ball is a cylinder about 5 cm in diameter and about 10 cm long. When deployed, it forms a sphere slightly over one meter in diameter which contains air sufficient to last one person for from one to two hours. In the event of explosive decompression or other loss of air, rescue balls allow individuals not in the possession of vacc suits or those without time to don vacc suits to survive long enough for aid to reach them. The user pulls a lanyard, climbs inside and seals the zip closure. The ball is made of a metal-coated plastic film for ease of location by radar and contains a small bottle of compressed air, a small first aid kit, and a transparent window through which the occupant may observe conditions outside the ball. Rescue balls provide some protection from stellar radiation and from corrosive and insidious atmospheres for a five to seven hours.
5 kg. TL 7 Cr 150

What we can glean from this description is that rescue balls are basically "unpowered lifeboats" for a single occupant who will need to assume a fetal position inside the ball (1m diameter isn't a whole lot of leg room!). They're also a "last resort" option that can sustain a person for 1-2 hours (which is not a whole lot of time) for a "shelter in place" alternative to permit rescuers a longer time horizon to intervene.

The article entry contains no mention or hint that rescue balls are "aerobrake rated" for atmospheric entry at orbital velocities, so I'm presuming that these things are an "orbital space only" type of item, however if they're deployed on a planetary surface they can withstand Atmosphere: B-C for 5-7 hours before failing (which is longer than the previously specified 1-2 hours of compressed air supply, in case anyone is paying attention).

Travellerwiki link: Vacc Suit



The way that I would prefer to approach this is that each stateroom has 1 rescue ball and 1 vacc suit allocated to it as standard emergency equipment.

To draw an imperfect analogy to (wet) nautical survival gear, the vacc suit is akin to a wet suit or dry suit that divers wear into the water ... and the rescue ball is more like a life jacket. Wet/dry suits are naturally buoyant absent carrying additional dense weights (to achieve negative or neutral buoyancy), making it easy to "float" in water. Life jackets are positive buoyancy wearable items to prevent wearers from sinking (which tends to lead to drowning).

Point being that a vacc suit is better and a rescue ball is useful to have as a backup in emergency situations. Both vacc suits and rescue balls are "single occupant only" (although I suppose that 2 people who are VERY FRIENDLY might be able to fit into a single rescue ball ) in normal usage, so it makes a lot of sense to issue "1 of each" to every single occupancy stateroom as standard safety equipment. Crew will probably use their vacc suits more often than any passengers will need to.

Fun part is trying to imagine the Steward's Safety Briefing for passengers on what to do in an emergency.

 

[coliver988]

could be both. just the ball takes a lot less space is is probably cheaper and easier to use. is is simply an emergency thing just like the life jacket. Figured as you want costs as cheap as possible to maximize profit, you'd go with the cheapest option. though whether or not any of this is even required is a more YTU thing. a vacc suit is Cr10K or so, not sure what the rescue ball is though going with a lot cheaper and fits most people 2m and under I figure.

and I'd feel like a hamster in space in one of those probably...

 

[Spinward Flow]

just the ball takes a lot less space is is probably cheaper and easier to use. is is simply an emergency thing just like the life jacket. Figured as you want costs as cheap as possible to maximize profit, you'd go with the cheapest option.

True ... but ...
Rescue balls are a disposable one use item.
Vacc Suits are reusable (and have a longer endurance during each use).

As a matter of pure economics, Vacc Suit=Cr10,000 and Rescue Ball=Cr150.
So as a matter of pure Cr shaving, 66x Rescue Ball is "cheaper" than 1x Vacc Suit.

However, if you're thinking in terms of a 40 year time frame for a starship hull, so long as you're using those Vacc Suits 2x per year, the reusable Vacc Suits (Cr10,000) are going to be cheaper to invest in than 80x Rescue Balls (Cr12,000) over the same time horizon for the same survival purpose.

Ideally speaking, you have the Vacc Suits with the Rescue Balls as backup ... and wind up not needing to use any of the Rescue Balls while you own the starship (you can have zero or two!).

 

[kilemall]

I figure the ship comes with vacc suits as part of the stateroom cost. IMTU big deal to have safety equipment with yearly inspection/certification that comes with maintenance, between accidents, stealing or selling off suits to pay bills, could be a problem.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I figure the ship comes with vacc suits as part of the stateroom cost.

Another thing to consider is that with a vacc suit you can be mobile and still "do stuff" in a vacuum.
With a rescue ball ... all you can do is curl up into a fetal position and wait to be let out.

For anyone familiar with the Action Economy™ of a d20 based game system (that I shall refrain from naming) ... that's the difference between being able to take actions (standard, movement, bonus, etc.) and NOT being able to take actions (because you're stuck in a rescue ball in a fetal position). That literally can be the difference between helpful and helpless when it comes to participating in an emergency situation (which includes ship to ship combat, during which depressurizing the hull is a wise pre-combat preventative action step when sounding General Quarters/Red Alert).

 

[coliver988]

Another thing to consider is that with a vacc suit you can be mobile and still "do stuff" in a vacuum.
With a rescue ball ... all you can do is curl up into a fetal position and wait to be let out.

For anyone familiar with the Action Economy™ of a d20 based game system (that I shall refrain from naming) ... that's the difference between being able to take actions (standard, movement, bonus, etc.) and NOT being able to take actions (because you're stuck in a rescue ball in a fetal position). That literally can be the difference between helpful and helpless when it comes to participating in an emergency situation (which includes ship to ship combat, during which depressurizing the hull is a wise pre-combat preventative action step when sounding General Quarters/Red Alert).

true. but while the PCs would have vacc suits I assume, the NPC passengers probably cannot even get into then in an emergency. But I was going for the background fluff of what the staterooms may or may not have. And realistically most ships would probably go for the cheapest option that meets whatever requirements. And pretty sure the Classic Traveller universe did not have safety standards for passenger liners. Nor insurance for the multi-million credit purchases of starships. All that is added to YTU for the most part.

Just all depends on how you want to run your game. if you don't vet your passengers, they could always use them to sneak around the outside of the ship when transiting to the jump point. Unless you have the intruder software and all that. Again - it all depends on how you run your games. I've had players take their suits to do such a thing for ships that were not p to date on their intrusion software.

 

[Spinward Flow]

but while the PCs would have vacc suits I assume, the NPC passengers probably cannot even get into then in an emergency.

Steward: "And for those of you who didn't pay attention to the safety briefing ... good luck ..."

But I was going for the background fluff of what the staterooms may or may not have.

Granted.
However, I'm operating from the (in universe) assumption that there is no "narrative plot armor" around the PCs. In a lot of important respects, there is no meaningful distinction between the PCs and the NPCs in terms of who gets what.

In the Third Imperium, your Social Status could make a difference with respect to who gets a vacc suit and who gets a rescue ball (snerk), but it wouldn't be a PC vs NPC distinction.

And realistically most ships would probably go for the cheapest option that meets whatever requirements.

True and logical.
However ...

Would it be unreasonable to assume that one of the perks of staterooms that CAN be used to provide high passenger services is that a vacc suit AND a rescue ball come as standard equipment with the stateroom accommodations?

The distinction I want to make here is that if it's possible for a stateroom to be used for high passengers, then there would be some regulation that (the use of) a vacc suit must be provided with the stateroom accommodations. The distinction being that a stateroom which does NOT have the capacity for high passage ticket use (because of insufficient Steward crew, most likely) would have a rescue ball only and no vacc suit assigned to the stateroom's inventory. Furthermore, this is not something that changes based on the tickets being purchased ... so if a there aren't enough high passengers to fill the manifest so you sell middle passage tickets instead, the vacc suit assigned to those occupied staterooms is not "removed" until a high passenger buys a ticket (or at least, it shouldn't be, but individual operators may skirt the regulations at their own risk).

And pretty sure the Classic Traveller universe did not have safety standards for passenger liners.

Well ... not at the LBB2 or LBB5 starship construction rules level of granularity.
Sometimes you'll get some hints or snippets in the fluff text write up of Interior Details for deck plans, but for the most part these kinds of concerns are mostly background details that are commonly ignored by both Players and Referees.

I'M the one going "above and beyond" to think about these "daily life aboard" factors which the naval architect spreadsheet of costs and displacements essentially glosses over in favor of more important (and expensive) bits and pieces that relate to performance in a combat situation. So I'm the one indulging in unnecessary levels of detail here (because it's fun, let's be honest).

Nor insurance for the multi-million credit purchases of starships.

The closest we get to that is the interest that needs to be paid on bank loans for starships.
I figure the reason for that is because no one want to play Traveller the Bookkeeping as a gaming experience.
Feels too much like Pencils & Paper Pushers.

Credit to Aaron Williams for being WAY TOO ON POINT from the very beginning of Full Frontal Nerdity.

if you don't vet your passengers, they could always use them to sneak around the outside of the ship when transiting to the jump point.

Quite true.

Unless you have the intruder software and all that. Again - it all depends on how you run your games. I've had players take their suits to do such a thing for ships that were not p to date on their intrusion software.

Security is one of those "better to have and not need than to need and not have" kinds of resources.

 

[Spinward Flow]

That took a bit longer (and more effort to get right) than I would have preferred ...



Went ahead and used the alternate imagery for the loft beds in the Stateroom Boxes, and put the upper deck hangar bay contents directly above the main deck hangar bay contents, so as to make it easier to see both the loft beds above and the sitting couches below (under the loft bed area) in a way that is easier to understand. The Interior Details write up text will make clear that both features (loft bed, ladder and seating area under) are found in staterooms in Stateroom Boxes, but the "over under" depiction on the deck plan is done for clarity of the arrangement of compartment features in 3D space.

Total number of compartments to be detailed increased from (previously) 143 to (now) 147.

• 1-8: Upper Deck (hangar bays, access, life support equipment)
• 9-16: Light Fighter
• 17-55: Upper Deck Boxes (stateroom, laboratory, stateroom, cargo boxes)
• 56-93: Main Deck Boxes (stateroom, laboratory, stateroom, environment boxes)
• 94-147: Main Deck (avionics, bridge, computer, fuel purification, access, life support equipment, engineering bays, hangar bay)