Power plant failure in jump space?

[salochin999]

<Shrug> depends very much on your conception of jump I suppose.

I'm rather focused on where all that fuel goes....

My latest version of handwavium is the ship needs a physical bubble of hydrogen to slip into J space so the P=J thing is mainly for the creation of the bubble (and a tiny amount used by the J drive to maintain the J bubble during jump). So after creation the PP isn't used except for life support etc.

#

based on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Anomalies_and_discrepancies

Extra massive hydrogen clouds:
The spectral lines of the Lyman-alpha forest suggest that hydrogen clouds are more clumped together at certain scales than expected and, like dark flow, may indicate that gravity falls off slower than inverse-squared at certain distance scales.[31]

Power:
Proposed extra dimensions could explain why the gravity force is so weak

so hand waving that there's something special about clouds of hydrogen manipulated the right way by the J drive which allows ships to slip into 5D space.

(not saying this is plausible, just saying I don't think it can be 100% disproved yet )

#

So I'd agree with freezing / life support being the main problem and if that is survived somehow then the ship pops out unable to fire up the M drive and you have to tow the ship with the ship's boat.

That could make for a fun space encounter - IN battleship asking for a tow into port

#

I use a similar handwavium for the M drive fuel i.e. it takes P tons of fuel to create a mini 5D bubble in the ship which allows the ship to *fall* in any direction it likes and once the bubble is created it only takes a trickle to maintain so 10P fuel is effectively 10 goes at creating the M bubble.

So under normal operation a ship leaving to jump would fire up the M drive once (first go) till jump point, switch off (as imtu you can't have M and J bubbles at the same time) and then switch the M bubble on again after the jump (second go) to port.

So 10P of fuel is like the amount considered safe rather than the amount used. If a ship only fires up the M drive twice on a trip then it will only use 2P.

Also if a ship has an M drive capable of producing nG then it can create bubbles of lower G that require less fuel.

So a 2G scout would use 2dtons of fuel to fire up the M drive to a 2G bubble or only 1 dton to create a 1G bubble.

A type T patrol ship with max 4G could use 4 dtons to create a 4G M bubble or just use 2 dtons and stick to 2G.

#

 

[Star Gazer]

From T5.09 p339:
"If its drives are destroyed, it still exits Jump Space at the end of the Jump time period (rather than immediately). If the Jump Field is breached, much of the matter is destroyed by Jump Space. What matter that remains exits Jump Space at the end of the time period."

Later on, on p340:
"If the Jump Drive fails at any time after Jump has begun, time in Jump is altered and the Jump Drive receives Mishap damage (in addition to, and separate from, any damage that caused the failure). Jump Drive failure can occur at any time during the Jump. Despite any time already spent in Jump, calculate the new total time in Jump. If it is greater than the time already elapsed, Jump ends immediately; otherwise, Jump continues until the total dictated time has elapsed."

It doesn't look like the Power Plant is involved at all in the Jump Process.

So, your best case scenario is that you have a life-support emergency on your hands. Better get in low berths. They have battery backups with lifetimes measured in months.

 

[aramis]

From T5.09 p339:
"If its drives are destroyed, it still exits Jump Space at the end of the Jump time period (rather than immediately). If the Jump Field is breached, much of the matter is destroyed by Jump Space. What matter that remains exits Jump Space at the end of the time period."

Later on, on p340:
"If the Jump Drive fails at any time after Jump has begun, time in Jump is altered and the Jump Drive receives Mishap damage (in addition to, and separate from, any damage that caused the failure). Jump Drive failure can occur at any time during the Jump. Despite any time already spent in Jump, calculate the new total time in Jump. If it is greater than the time already elapsed, Jump ends immediately; otherwise, Jump continues until the total dictated time has elapsed."

It doesn't look like the Power Plant is involved at all in the Jump Process.

So, your best case scenario is that you have a life-support emergency on your hands. Better get in low berths. They have battery backups with lifetimes measured in months.

That's pretty conclusive evidence that the JDrive is functioning throughout the jump, too.

 

[Wol]

Excellent thanks for the T5.09 ref.

Hmm, I infer that unless jump drives run without energy, then they need power. If power fails, jump drive fails, and ship arrives at destination in accordance with the above and the jump drive takes (additional) damage.

Great fun.

Regards.

 

[jcrocker]

I think in most versions, the jump drive is its own power plant. The "power plant" runs everything else, but the jump drive powers itself through jump.

I haven't had a go at the T5 ship design rules, but the MT ones I'm familiar with require allocations for both power plant fuel and jump fuel (which can come from the same tank).

So in theory a ship could take a hit to the power plant just before jump, but as long as the jump drive was intact, the ship would arrive at its destination. If anyone would be alive or not is another matter.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Hmm, I infer that unless jump drives run without energy, then they need power. If power fails, jump drive fails, and ship arrives at destination in accordance with the above and the jump drive takes (additional) damage.

Well, mixing it up with a bit of 'real world'. Have the jump field like a LC circuit. Remember Jump coils? Hook them up to the jump capacitors and you have a self powered resonater circuit.

The capacitors discharge into the coils, generating the jump field. The jump coils then discharge, which recharges the capacitor. The capacitor then discharges and recharges the coils....etc. Of course a bit of energy would be lost each cycle, but considering that a crap load of power was pushed into the capacitors at jump initiation it should be enough.

If it doesn't require 'topping up' in flight then the power plant isn't necessary. Destroy the resonator circuit (the jump drive) and apart from turning anything nearby into charcoal (that energy has to go somewhere) and bad things happen. As for why jump is completed even with a broken drive - when the jump field collapses, it charges the remaining jump coils just enough, which charges the capacitor, etc. So you have enough field to finish the trip, even though it wont be nice as the jump field boundary gets closer to the hull each cycle like a deflating balloon.

Add a bit of handwavium and you can say that is why the field 'fluctuates'. It's not a constant jump field but a series of rapid pulses as the coils charge/discharge.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

I think in most versions, the jump drive is its own power plant. The "power plant" runs everything else, but the jump drive powers itself through jump.

But if the power plant must match the jump drive that implies the power plant actually powers the jump drive.

If the Jump Field is breached, much of the matter is destroyed by Jump Space. What matter that remains exits Jump Space at the end of the time period

As long as the Field is maintained, the ship makes the journey. What can breach the Field? Even if the jump drive itself is slagged, the Field apparently can be maintained. Is this the jumpgrid in the hull that maintains the Field, running off the residual energy that powered the initial entry into Jump-Space?

 

[kilemall]

My latest version of handwavium is the ship needs a physical bubble of hydrogen to slip into J space so the P=J thing is mainly for the creation of the bubble (and a tiny amount used by the J drive to maintain the J bubble during jump). So after creation the PP isn't used except for life support etc.

#

based on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity#Anomalies_and_discrepancies



so hand waving that there's something special about clouds of hydrogen manipulated the right way by the J drive which allows ships to slip into 5D space.

(not saying this is plausible, just saying I don't think it can be 100% disproved yet )

#

So I'd agree with freezing / life support being the main problem and if that is survived somehow then the ship pops out unable to fire up the M drive and you have to tow the ship with the ship's boat.

That could make for a fun space encounter - IN battleship asking for a tow into port

#

I use a similar handwavium for the M drive fuel i.e. it takes P tons of fuel to create a mini 5D bubble in the ship which allows the ship to *fall* in any direction it likes and once the bubble is created it only takes a trickle to maintain so 10P fuel is effectively 10 goes at creating the M bubble.

So under normal operation a ship leaving to jump would fire up the M drive once (first go) till jump point, switch off (as imtu you can't have M and J bubbles at the same time) and then switch the M bubble on again after the jump (second go) to port.

So 10P of fuel is like the amount considered safe rather than the amount used. If a ship only fires up the M drive twice on a trip then it will only use 2P.

Also if a ship has an M drive capable of producing nG then it can create bubbles of lower G that require less fuel.

So a 2G scout would use 2dtons of fuel to fire up the M drive to a 2G bubble or only 1 dton to create a 1G bubble.

A type T patrol ship with max 4G could use 4 dtons to create a 4G M bubble or just use 2 dtons and stick to 2G.

#

Internally consistent at least.

I've got reaction needs and sensor/weapon interactions become problematic with maneuver fields so I'm staying away from all that.

My jumps are radically different from anyone else's so no point in arguing it, just doesn't make sense to me that a jump is effectively running on batteries for field/bubble/cloud/wormhole/whatever maintenance.

 

[BlackBat242]

But if the power plant must match the jump drive that implies the power plant actually powers the jump drive.

Or that the PP acts as the starter for the JD, so that the PP must be able to provide enough energy to the JD to activate it at full capacity.

As long as the Field is maintained, the ship makes the journey. What can breach the Field? Even if the jump drive itself is slagged, the Field apparently can be maintained. Is this the jumpgrid in the hull that maintains the Field, running off the residual energy that powered the initial entry into Jump-Space?

I think so - apparently once the grid is charged it slowly decays at a set rate, without any need for further energy inputs.

This gives answers to several things:

1. The massive initial fuel use for the JD is to not only create the transition to the hyperspace energy state needed, but to also charge the grid enough to maintain the grid's energy level for the week at the required level for the jump speed required.
No need for hydrogen cooling, surrounding the ship with a gas cloud, etc.

2. The variation on jump duration is because different grids, installed in different hulls, and with differing states of wear/efficiency (even when the same grid model is in the same hull model, both from the same manufacturer) discharge their energy at slightly different rates.

3. As the grid actually starts with more energy than is needed and drops down over the week, some of the grid is unnecessary if the PP can actually trickle-feed energy to the grid in an emergency to maintain the minimum necessary level. This is why light damage to a ship's hull won't automatically degrade its jump capability - only if enough of the grid is damaged (rolling specific JD degradation) will it not work properly.

4. All of this energy (see #1) is liberated from the hydrogen at once, which is likely less-efficient than doing it over a longer period of time, but doing it this way makes for a safer JD - as there is no need for the JD to operate for the whole week, thus much less chance of a critical system failure during jump.

 

[salochin999]

Internally consistent at least.

I've got reaction needs and sensor/weapon interactions become problematic with maneuver fields so I'm staying away from all that.

My jumps are radically different from anyone else's so no point in arguing it, just doesn't make sense to me that a jump is effectively running on batteries for field/bubble/cloud/wormhole/whatever maintenance.

Fair enough. To a large extent these ideas are a kind of willing self-deception so what works and what doesn't is very personal

plus in my case i specifically want it consistent with psionics (teleport) and cthulhu (yog-sothoth = tesseract).

#

But if the power plant must match the jump drive that implies the power plant actually powers the jump drive.

I treat it as a kind of starter motor / ignition thing.

 

[Condottiere]

I've never really figured out why you need that amount of hydrogen, but the jump drive needs a massive amount of energy.

1. The power plant is optimized to massively overclock for a short window, to produce the amount of energy needed to open up a portal to hyperspace.

2. While the energy is sufficient, it still can't be created fast enough to punch through dimensions, so it gets transferred to the capacitors in the jump drive as it's being created.

3. The capacitors can only hold the energy for a short period, but it's sufficient time to accumulate the energy and to release it all at once.

 

[Wol]

Or that the PP acts as the starter for the JD, so that the PP must be able to provide enough energy to the JD to activate it at full capacity.



I think so - apparently once the grid is charged it slowly decays at a set rate, without any need for further energy inputs.

This gives answers to several things:

...
3. As the grid actually starts with more energy than is needed and drops down over the week, some of the grid is unnecessary if the PP can actually trickle-feed energy to the grid in an emergency to maintain the minimum necessary level. This is why light damage to a ship's hull won't automatically degrade its jump capability - only if enough of the grid is damaged (rolling specific JD degradation) will it not work properly.

Though not all ships have jump grids. Per 5.09 they may have one or more central field generators... The hull is not involved.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

Though not all ships have jump grids. Per 5.09 they may have one or more central field generators... The hull is not involved.

So does the field itself hold that residual energy? Or, to put it another way, IS the residual energy, so that it doesn't care if there is a jump drive machine of one sort or another. The field itself decays over the week, dropping you where ever your jump drive initially decided to put you (hopefully where you told it).

I can see that. The field can be produced, manipulated by one type of device or another (grid or generator), but the field is like a soap bubble - it doesn't depend on the ring or breath/wind that initially produced it. But if you pop the field...

 

[BlackBat242]

Yes, a good way to put it.

I tend to speak from a CT viewpoint, because that is the only rule-set I have or have used, so I have no idea what is in any other rule-set unless I read something on CotI about it.

 

[Wol]

"Soap bubble". I quite like that too. Heck in the absence of any real guidance from MM, then I guess either way is fine though in one's own TU.

Regards and thanks all for the input. Much lateral thinking and food for thought.

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm, on the power used to initiate jump versus fuel versus sustained jump question, just reread the Black Globe section which the whole set of capacitor rules was written to support.

A little paragraph at the end of the rules states that if you have enough power in your capacitors from being charged by EP capture from your BGG and enough fuel, you can immediately jump.

That suggests several things.

The power to charge those capacitors and initiate jump must come from the normal power plant and not an integrated short term high output plant in the j-drive, otherwise a BGG-capacitor discharge event should require less fuel for jump.

The correlation is all fuel is used for jump-related activities, whether that is a bubble, discontinuity/alcuberrie field formation, etc.

That doesn't eliminate a high-output plant in the j-drive, perhaps the capacitors are in part 'starting' one up, just that it's not charging the capacitors.

The rule also would seem to bolster the Annic Nova mechanism- perhaps a retcon, perhaps AN prompted the whole BGG/capacitor ruleset?

Also of course doesn't settle the 'power during jump' question either.

 

[Selandia]

I always played it: if the PP goes down, life support goes down.

Accordingly, you must be able to come out of jump in the advent of a PP failure if J-space exit is beyond a few hours away

To "turn off the buble" the J-drive must be designed to have some form of control over said bubble. Otherwise, the jump process would simply "catapult the buble" to where you hope to go.

May be the bubble does not need the J-Drive once the bubble is created and shot away, but I play that TI safety reg require a way to "hurry out" of J-space. I play it that it could be a concious gesture or an automated one in the advent that "certain death if continuation in J-space" conditions are registered. No PP = No LS would qualify.

have fun

Selandia

 

[aramis]

Cannically, it's 1d6 days from PP failure to LS failure. (TTB 51).

 

[Condottiere]

If you made provisions, you can probably switchover to batteries.

The real issues would be if it's considered a misjump, and/or if you drop out of hyperspace immediately.

 

[Wol]

As you say, other may apply. Since TTB all manner of backup services are possible/likely/assumed. In the absence of any MGT "two weeks at most" rather than 1-6 days.

Regards