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Pulling a knife in the bar

Icosahedron

SOC-14 1K
Here's a typical Traveller problem:

According to LBB1,
"Brawling is a general skill for hand to hand fighting. It includes the use of hands, clubs, and bottles as weapons."
(p16).

and,
"Pistols may be used as clubs when brawling. Bottles may be used as clubs (once, then they become dagger minus 1)."
(p37).

Now, the question arises, what if you have a character with Brawling 2 and no dagger skill?

On the face of it, if he uses a dagger in a fight he gets a skill modifier of -5, but if he uses a broken bottle as a makeshift dagger in a fight, he gets a skill bonus of +2!

Is it reasonable to suggest that a person would be seven points more dangerous with a makeshift dagger than he would be with the real thing??

Is it reasonable to suggest that Brawling skill incorporates Dagger skill, but Dagger skill does not incorporate Brawling??

How do you resolve this situation? I doubt if it's just a CT anomaly, though I haven't checked other versions.
 
I would resolve it as:

Round 1 Brawling w/ Bottle = +2
Round 2 Brawling with Dagger-1 = -6

Alternatively, Pulls a Dagger, untrained = -5

Or

PC = Dagger-0 Skill = -1 with Broken Bottle, +0 With Dagger.

If you are going by RAW, slightly House-ruled.

The problem really is that "Brawling" is an overall 'Roadhouse Bar Fight' style, and "Dagger" is (or seems to be) a specific technique / Skill. Yet the system doesn't account for the difference, other than to have the two names.
 
I always read that "Dagger -1" as applying to the weapon stats not the skill. So it would be one less to hit per armour type and range, and -1 damage. A broken bottle is a really poor dagger. Does that work any better for the problem?
 
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So a bar fight breaks out

PC one, with no weapon skills pulls a knife (Dagger) with Dagger-0 and has a +0 to hit for armour (no one is wearing any) and -1 for range (starting at short) for a total to hit of -1. The damage will be 2D.

PC two, also with no weapon skills has no knife, he breaks a bottle (Dagger -1) with Brawling-0 and has a -1 to hit for armour (of none again), and -2 for range (also starting at short) for a total to hit of -3. The damage will be 2D-1.

Skills being equal the Dagger is always better than the Broken Bottle.
 
Now, the question arises, what if you have a character with Brawling 2 and no dagger skill?

What Far Trader said. You'd use dagger with broken bottle damage. GM's choice on that.

On the face of it, if he uses a dagger in a fight he gets a skill modifier of -5, but if he uses a broken bottle as a makeshift dagger in a fight, he gets a skill bonus of +2!

Not quite. Since nobody has pointed this out yet, I will.

The -5 skill modifier is only for weapons that the character does not have a Skill-0 in. If your character is one of the six basic character classes (Navy, Army, Marines, Scout, Merchant, Other), then that character has Skill-0 with every weapon listed in Book 1.

So, the character would have Dagger-0, even if its not on the character's sheet.

If you use Sup 4 careers, you have to read. For example, the Doctor career does not get the Skill-0 in all the weapons in Book 1, and thus would suffer the -5 penalty.
 
Bear with me, I'm still puzzling:

I would resolve it as:

Round 1 Brawling w/ Bottle = +2
Round 2 Brawling with Dagger-1 = -6

So you're saying that this guy neatly knocks off the base of his bottle on the edge of the bar, transforming it from a ten inch club to an eight inch dagger, and all of a sudden he loses his ability to hit anything with it?
 
Bear with me, I'm still puzzling:

What Far Trader said. You'd use dagger with broken bottle damage. GM's choice on that.

Yes, I read the -1 as applying to damage, but it doesn't much matter either way if you have a large variation between the Brawling skill and the Dagger skill.


If your character is one of the six basic character classes (Navy, Army, Marines, Scout, Merchant, Other), then that character has Skill-0 with every weapon listed in Book 1.

So, the character would have Dagger-0, even if its not on the character's sheet.

If you use Sup 4 careers, you have to read. For example, the Doctor career does not get the Skill-0 in all the weapons in Book 1, and thus would suffer the -5 penalty.

Ok, that papers over the cracks for most PCs, provided the brawling skill is not too high, but it really just sidesteps the issue, and it arises again if the PC has Brawling-5, for example.

With a broken bottle, the Brawling-2 doctor (or Brawling-5 Marine, if you prefer) can poke out both his opponents eyes and cut a 'Z' on the guy's forehead, but if he picks up a real dagger he can't hit a barn door with it. That just doesn't seem logical to me.
 
With a broken bottle, the Brawling-2 doctor (or Brawling-5 Marine, if you prefer) can poke out both his opponents eyes and cut a 'Z' on the guy's forehead, but if he picks up a real dagger he can't hit a barn door with it. That just doesn't seem logical to me.

Nor does it seem logical to me, either.

The problem is addressed, though, in CT. It's just not addressed directly. There isn't a section in CT that says, "If you have X skill, then the GM should give you a break when using a like skill."

But, what CT does do, with regard to this issue, is address it with later rules and skills in later supplements. We see this with more and varied use of some skills outside of Book 1. (Combat Rifleman comes to mind.)

For example...

In Book 1, a character can have AutoPistol-1, and this implies no skill at all with a revolver.

Then, Book 4 comes along and introduces the Pistol skill. This skill allows the same skill level to be applied to both autopistols and revolvers.

After that, Book 5 takes it a step further with its introduction of the Handgun skill (a different skill than either the Pistol skill or the single weapons skills from Book 1) that allows the same skill level to be applied to autopistols, revolvers, and body pistols.

The Pistol skill from Book 4 still exists--you'd use the Handgun skill if you wanted to include body pistols.

Now, remember what is written in Book 1, on pg. 23 and on page 34 of Book 0. Also remember the excellent example that LKW writes on page 3 of JTAS-2.

Take all of those sources, together, and what you basically get is an implied statement, addressed to the Game Master, to "use common sense, dummy!"

That's exactly what is happening in Book 4 and Book 5. The authors of those books looked at the type of character they were addressing, and then they looked at the separate weapon skills in Book 1. And, then they said, "Hey, this needs to be fixed. An Army soldier, trained with an automatic pistol, should be just as good a shot with a revolver as he is with the autopistol." Boom, the Pistol skill was invented. When Book 5 was being written, they felt that body pistols would likely be common equipment in this Emperor's fuedal Navy, and...boom...the Handgun skill was invented (named Handgun to keep it separate from the Pistol skill).

Given all of this, it is certainly implied in CT that you, as GM, should make a call on this and not stick to the Book 1 rules if its time for common sense to prevail.

The CT rules are quick and dirty and cover most situations appropriately. But, when it comes to the situation you describe, put on your common sense hat and make a common sense call.







My "common sense" hat has led me to make this call in the past: Whenever a weapon is akin to another, and the character would likely be skilled with it, then he can use any "like" weapon at one level lower than his current skill level.

Thus, if a character has AutoPistol-3, then he can fire a body pistol or a revolver at Skill-2. If a character has Rifle-2, then he can fire his autorifle as if he had Skill-1.

My thinking on this is that the character is most skilled in his specialty--the weapon he is comfortable with. But, he should be somewhat skilled (one level lower) with like weapons. The Rifle-2 guy above could fire a shotgun as if he had the Shotgun-1 skill.

Makes sense to me.







Also, don't forget the section on Zero level skills on pg. 23 of Book 1. It basically says: If a character has a good reason for having a skill, then give it to him at Skill-0.

If a Belter character doesn't have Vacc Suit on his character sheet, for example, then the player can probably make a pretty good case why the Belter should be at least familiar with vacc suits. Give the dude Vacc Suit-0.

Use CT as your rule of thumb. A character who has spent a term in the Army is automatically granted Skill-0 with EVERY weapon listed in Book 1. OTOH, a character who spent his terms in the Doctor career does not get that benefit. The doctors spent all their time studying medicine, I guess, because he will suffer a -5 DM with weapons with which he's not skilled.

But, no matter what the book says, follow the CT advice and use common sense. If a Doctor ends up with AutoPistol-3, then he's probably not going to be -5 DM to hit with a revolver (I'd use my rule above and consider him as having Revolver-2 skill).

It's your game and your call.




With a broken bottle, the Brawling-2 doctor (or Brawling-5 Marine, if you prefer) can poke out both his opponents eyes and cut a 'Z' on the guy's forehead, but if he picks up a real dagger he can't hit a barn door with it. That just doesn't seem logical to me.

So, in your game, you might want to consider that Brawling skill includes the Dagger skill. Characters can have either skill. A character may have Dagger and not have Brawling.
If it were me, I'd do something cool with it and say that Brawling skill includes Dagger up to Skill-2. After that, the actual Dagger skill is needed for Skill 3+.

That's how CT is mean to be played! With custom, funky, homegrown rules like that.

I truly believe it!

Maybe you'll want to invent a new skill that includes both Brawling and Dagger. Name it something different (as was done with Handgun and Pistol).

Also, remember the effects of the skills. A character that is effective Dagger-2 because of his Brawling-3 skill, per my rule above, isn't a skillful dagger weilder. He's a clunky bar fighter. He wouldn't be worth a heck if you asked him to show you some finesse with the Dagger. He probably couldn't throw it correctly either.

The character with the Dagger-2 skill, on the other hand, still have the same chance to hit, but maybe throwing the Dagger is not done with a penalty as it would have to be with the Brawling skill.

Again, it your universe. Your players are just living in it.
 
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Yep, that's pretty much what I figured. I usually allow familiarity with 'like' weapons, but it is interesting to see that there are differences of opinion on the topic.

I'm not trying to beat down other opinions, BTW, I'm just querying points of view in order to raise discussion, see whether my view is a commonly held one or an anomaly, and find out how others justify different viewpoints.

Cheers.
 
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Gets you arrested.

Presuming you're still in the bar when the cops show up of course...
 
"Pulling a knife in a bar ..."

In every campaign I've played, pulling a knife in a bar...


gets you shot...


multiple times...


by many people.
 
"Pulling a knife in a bar ..."

In every campaign I've played, pulling a knife in a bar...


gets you shot...


multiple times...


by many people.

I thought the same thing while reading the thread, but I figured each person's game world is different. :rofl:

Daniel
 
IMTU, it varies.

On Regina, it gets you arrested.

On Wypoc, it gets you asked to leave, and then beaten to a pulp by local cops if you don't.
 
Knife fights.

Gotta go with Jame on this one, you get the Metros and if ya give them sh*t, then they call SWAT, and on up the chain, though if you get to ImpDrpMarFor then you have perhaps a bit of Timmy problem.

On the other hand in real life peeps like PSUs and SWAT types get trained in a skill called Close Quarters Battle, which in CT would be a blend of Dagger, Brawling and Body Pistol skills. It teaches the student how to deal with threats with about <3 meters with/versus the above weapons. It also teaches how to deal with multiple oppenents and suprise.

As such, thinking about it now I'd make it available only to Military, Cops and Imperial Service Agents.
 
On the other hand in real life peeps like PSUs and SWAT types get trained in a skill called Close Quarters Battle, which in CT would be a blend of Dagger, Brawling and Body Pistol skills. It teaches the student how to deal with threats with about <3 meters with/versus the above weapons. It also teaches how to deal with multiple oppenents and suprise.

Sounds like the basis for a new skill: AutoPistol, Pistol, Handgun...and now, Close Quarters Battle.
 
Sounds like the basis for a new skill: AutoPistol, Pistol, Handgun...and now, Close Quarters Battle.

Sounds like he's done it... *another skill* covering the same, or similar ground. Arrest that man! :) Time to retire a few skills that recapitulate eachother...

IIRC CQB is really about team work, entry, movement and fields of fire etc. You better know how to use your weapon (basic weapons skills) before you get into it. Rather like tactics for close in combat.
 
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