Pysadi Size Change

[TamsinP]

It seems that at some point, the size code for Pysadi/Aramis (SM 3008) changed from 4 to 5. Does anyone know when this change occurred (and/or why)?

From the materials I own:
Size 4 - Supplement 3 The Spinward Marches; The Traveller Adventure; Megatraveller Imperial Encyclopedia
Size 5 - Traveller Map; Traveller Wiki; MgT2e Behind The Claw

 

[Kakistocrat]

Does anyone know when this change occurred (and/or why)?

I don’t know the answer to your question, but apart from the materials that you own, Pysadi/Aramis also has size 4 in Module 3, The Spinward Marches Campaign, and Pysadi wasn’t mentioned in the Consolidated Errata documents for Traveller and MegaTraveller.

 

[Garnfellow]

The size was changed as part of the T5 Second Survey review, which was a volunteer effort run by a small cadre of fans at the direction of Marc Miller. The goal was to review all legacy sector data for the Official Traveller Universe to create an 1105 dataset that conformed to Traveller5 world gen and also met some basic consistency standards. This data was then published on TravellerMap and was used for all licensed publications going forward. The Marches were probably the first sector reviewed, but I'm not sure about the timeline. Maybe 2005? (Unfortunately the survey team did not do a great job documenting their workflow.)

In any case, one very common change was to increase the size of small planets to accommodate their atmospheres -- the rationale was that planets smaller than size 5 simply did not have the mass to retain breathable oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere types. Since Pysadi had a Type 7 atmosphere, the size was increased from 4 to 5.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The T5 survey did not respect the legacy LBB3.81 world generation rules, substituting their own ... is the short answer.

If you would prefer to look at LBB S3 instead of a T5 Survey (that is loaded with lots of new errors), I have a solution for you.

 

[TamsinP]

Thanks! That certainly explains it.

The T5 survey did not respect the legacy LBB3.81 world generation rules, substituting their own ... is the short answer.

If you would prefer to look at LBB S3 instead of a T5 Survey (that is loaded with lots of new errors), I have a solution for you.

I seem to recall having commented on that thread.

 

[Kakistocrat]

The size was changed as part of the T5 Second Survey review, which was a volunteer effort run by a small cadre of fans at the direction of Marc Miller. The goal was to review all legacy sector data for the Official Traveller Universe to create an 1105 dataset that conformed to Traveller5 world gen and also met some basic consistency standards.

Did Traveller⁵ change the world generation rule of atmosphere = 2D − 7 + size, or add additional overrides to “if size 0 or S, then atmosphere 0”?

(Unfortunately the survey team did not do a great job documenting their workflow.)

In any case, one very common change was to increase the size of small planets to accommodate their atmospheres — the rationale was that planets smaller than size 5 simply did not have the mass to retain breathable oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere types. Since Pysadi had a Type 7 atmosphere, the size was increased from 4 to 5.

Do you recall other common changes which the survey team applied to UWPs?

 

[bookwyrm]

The size was changed as part of the T5 Second Survey review, which was a volunteer effort run by a small cadre of fans at the direction of Marc Miller. The goal was to review all legacy sector data for the Official Traveller Universe to create an 1105 dataset that conformed to Traveller5 world gen and also met some basic consistency standards. This data was then published on TravellerMap and was used for all licensed publications going forward. The Marches were probably the first sector reviewed, but I'm not sure about the timeline. Maybe 2005? (Unfortunately the survey team did not do a great job documenting their workflow.)

In any case, one very common change was to increase the size of small planets to accommodate their atmospheres -- the rationale was that planets smaller than size 5 simply did not have the mass to retain breathable oxygen-nitrogen atmosphere types. Since Pysadi had a Type 7 atmosphere, the size was increased from 4 to 5.

This would explain why many worlds in the Gateway Domain set in the Gateway to Destiny Era have Size, Atmosphere, and Hydrographics that are different from the 1105 Era. I think...

Personally, since Size is rolled first, the Atmosphere and/or Hydrographic should have been changed to match the world Size instead. It's possible that changing Size was the easier thing to do than changing the others. Since this is all said and done already, we have what we have.

 

[TamsinP]

If only they'd taken the time to review the X-Boat network routes and the Waystations. Of the latter, 32 out of 99 are not actually on a route (although 17 are within 1 parsec of an X-boat station; 7 are within 2 parsecs; 7 within 3 parsecs; the final one is 5 parsecs away from the nearest station). For one of the ones which is 3 parsecs away, the nearest X-boat station is another Waystation; for one of the 1-parsec distant ones there is another Waystation which is also 1 parsec away and on the route.

And then there is the strange case of the only X-boat route to Five Sisters subsector passing through an X-boat station located in the Sword Worlds.

Of course, most of the problems with the X-boat routes goes back to the fact that they weren't originally X-boat routes but were trade routes designed randomly using tables in LBB3(77) which only considered the starport classes.

If a re-mapping were to be done, the obvious scheme would be something like this:
1. map J4 routes from Capital to all the sector capitals
2. map J4 routes from sector capitals to adjacent sectors' capitals
3. map J4 routes from sector capitals to subsector capitals in their sector
4. map J4 routes from subsector capitals to adjacent subsectors' capitals
5. map J4 routes from subsector capitals to Important (Ix 4+) worlds (or high Pop, high TL, Naval/Scout base, etc)

And then do separate maps for trade routes.

 

[Garnfellow]

Did Traveller⁵ change the world generation rule of atmosphere = 2D − 7 + size, or add additional overrides to “if size 0 or S, then atmosphere 0”?


Do you recall other common changes which the survey team applied to UWPs?

Don McKinney's "Atmo Hack" went like this: If Atm 1/A/B/C, Size 3+; if Atm 2/3, Size 4+, and if Atm 4-9, Size 5+.

This rule isn't actually in T5 but was been applied consistently to TravellerMap data.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Don McKinney's "Atmo Hack" went like this: If Atm 1/A/B/C, Size 3+; if Atm 2/3, Size 4+, and if Atm 4-9, Size 5+.

That would explain ... A LOT ... of the things I had to fix when I was (re-)mapping the Spinward Marches.

 

[Krikkitone]

This would explain why many worlds in the Gateway Domain set in the Gateway to Destiny Era have Size, Atmosphere, and Hydrographics that are different from the 1105 Era. I think...

Personally, since Size is rolled first, the Atmosphere and/or Hydrographic should have been changed to match the world Size instead. It's possible that changing Size was the easier thing to do than changing the others. Since this is all said and done already, we have what we have.

Yeah I was making my own mapping system and basically added
size 4-, divide by 6 round off (so size 4 gets atm 2, but size 3 doesn’t)
size 2-, atm 0

 

[tzunder]

I view this as all story grist to the mill. Especially an X-Boat route through Sword Worlder territory, there's a story there.

 

[Krikkitone]

This would explain why many worlds in the Gateway Domain set in the Gateway to Destiny Era have Size, Atmosphere, and Hydrographics that are different from the 1105 Era. I think...

Personally, since Size is rolled first, the Atmosphere and/or Hydrographic should have been changed to match the world Size instead. It's possible that changing Size was the easier thing to do than changing the others. Since this is all said and done already, we have what we have.

I can see why size was easier. Atm and Hyd affect more trade codes (and how people experience the world) than Size, so changing size doesn’t really change the story of the world as much as changing the atm/hyd

 

[TamsinP]

I've just remembered another bit on the X-boat network that could do with fixing - there are two sections in Verge subsector of Glimmerdrift Reaches and Adar subsector of Hinterworlds which do not connect to the rest of the X-boat network. It's possible there are other examples of this - I noticed these when I was looking up the Waystations.

Damn! Now I'm going to have to look through Traveller Map to see if there are any others...

 

[TamsinP]

I can see why size was easier. Atm and Hyd affect more trade codes (and how people experience the world) than Size, so changing size doesn’t really change the story of the world as much as changing the atm/hyd

Moving from size 4 to size 5 removes a +1DM for TL; Moving from size 0 or 1 to 3 or 4 drops the TL DM from +2 to +1.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I view this as all story grist to the mill. Especially an X-Boat route through Sword Worlder territory, there's a story there.

The "story" there (such as it is) can be best explained by a mistake made along the way to the publication of LBB S3 ... which then got canonized (because it's harder to correct printed paper that's been published and is in circulation than it is to correct data that goes into rendering a web page).

The XBoat route should have connected through nearby Wardn/Lunion (which has a Scout Base in the system), 2 parsecs away from Biter/Sword Worlds but still within 4 parsecs of Calabolg/Sword Worlds. The problem however, was that the original printing style format used in LBB S3 would not have made it clear that the XBoat route was "skipping past" the uninhabited Bronze/Sword Worlds star system. Simply due to the way the lines got drawn on the map, it would have looked like Bronze/Sword Worlds was part of the XBoat network, which was quite obviously wrong.

So somebody along the links in the chain must have taken it upon themselves to "fix the problem" with the Caladbolg <> Wardn step in the chain by switching it to Caladbolg <> Biter as the only available alternative ... in the hopes that no one would notice the switch (or if they did, it would be too late to do anything about it).

Just one of the limitations of the print paper black & white presentation format of the era, which thankfully we don't have to deal with (in quite the same way) when working in a digital space on color screens in more modern times.

 

[Krikkitone]

Moving from size 4 to size 5 removes a +1DM for TL; Moving from size 0 or 1 to 3 or 4 drops the TL DM from +2 to +1.

And changing Atm from 4-9 to 3- adds a +1TL DM and changing Atm 2-9 to 1- to makes a -4 Hyd DM.

Any change they made to the Size or Atm would affect multiple things, (and they should have made it a rule in the T5 world generation if they wanted it)…and checked for the TL and other interactions
I’d suggest for sizes 4- (in HZ at least)
4: Atm=1D/2
3: Atm=1D/4
2-:0

 

[inexorabletash]

I've just remembered another bit on the X-boat network that could do with fixing - there are two sections in Verge subsector of Glimmerdrift Reaches and Adar subsector of Hinterworlds which do not connect to the rest of the X-boat network. It's possible there are other examples of this - I noticed these when I was looking up the Waystations.

Damn! Now I'm going to have to look through Traveller Map to see if there are any others...

The reason for this is that Delphi subsector P has non-Imperial allegiances in the classic Atlas. So whoever designed the routes for Delphi (JTAS Online, I think?) skipped that subsector.

For T5SS we corrected the allegiances.

The "metadata" (borders, routes, etc) isn't considered part of the official T5SS data. Suggested route fixes for Delphi etc are welcome (ideally as pull requests)

 

[TamsinP]

The reason for this is that Delphi subsector P has non-Imperial allegiances in the classic Atlas. So whoever designed the routes for Delphi (JTAS Online, I think?) skipped that subsector.

For T5SS we corrected the allegiances.

The "metadata" (borders, routes, etc) isn't considered part of the official T5SS data. Suggested route fixes for Delphi etc are welcome (ideally as pull requests)

Interestingly, you don't seem to have corrected the allegiances of three Non-Aligned (Eisner, Corineus, Elke) and two Client States (Iini, Fortescue) in subsector O (Zuma). Was there a reason for not doing so?

I'd be happy to suggest some route fixes, but I'm not sure what you mean by a "pull request". My suggested route amendments would depend on whether those five worlds are corrected (actually, only Eisner would affect my suggestions).

If Eisner is changed to Imperial, my suggestion would be:

Lastir/Zuma (Delphi 2139); Eisner/Zuma (Delphi 2336); Coning/Breda (Delphi 2336); Breda/Breda (Delphi 3035); Mesinam/Verge (Glimmerdrift Reaches 0133); Paradise/Verge (Glimmerdrift Reaches 0131) and/or Sha/Verge (Glimmerdrift Reaches 0432). I'd add a spur from Coning to Frigidair/Breda (Delphi 2833).

If Eisner remains NaHu, my suggested route would be:

Lastir/Zuma (Delphi 2139); Cabra/Zuma (Delphi 2438); Rogis/Breda (Delphi 2839); Dami/Breda (Delphi 3138); Breda/Breda (Delphi 3035); Mesinam/Verge (Gimmerdrift Reaches 0133); Paradise/Verge (Glimmerdrift Reaches 0131) and/or Sha/Verge (Glimmerdrift Reaches 0432). Add a spur from Breda to Frigidair/Breda (Delphi 2833).

Second route to add:

Lastir/Zuma (Delphi 2139); Cabra/Zuma (Delphi 2438); Rogis/Breda (Delphi 2839); Siaj/Rusco (Old Expanses 3102)



I'd also be interested in the background to the two-leg X-boat route [Adar/Adar (Hinterworlds 0401; Imperial); Kaggits/Adar (Hinterworlds 0201; Ral Ranta); Venad/Adar (Hinterworlds 0404; Imperial)]. It would make more sense to delete that and replace it with the following route:

Engle/Rusco (Old Expanses 3204); Venad/Adar (Hinterworlds 0404); Shanka/Vege (Glimmerdift Reaches 0840); Ilaria/Verge (Glimmerdrift Reaches 0837).

 

[Kakistocrat]

Personally, since Size is rolled first, the Atmosphere and/or Hydrographic should have been changed to match the world Size instead.

“Correcting the later-rolled digit” is also the approach that I’d taken when finding UWP generation errors in the Spinward Marches and Solomani Rim data, as modified by the Consolidated Errata, and which weren’t explicitly exempted in the descriptive text of the source material (e.g. a few high population worlds in the Solomani Rim with a government digit of 2). Since I didn’t start from the TravellerMap data, I hadn’t encountered the “Atmo Hack” changes.

The Atmo Hack seems to have been more a case of establishing size minima based on the atmosphere — something like Cepheus Engine’s technology level minima based on the atmosphere, hydrographics, and/or population, but with the Atmo Hack minima being ex post iactu, since size is rolled before atmosphere.

I agree with Krikkitone that changing a world’s size would tend to have less effect on a world’s storyline than changing its atmosphere, but as both he and TamsinP noted, the knock-on effects of changing a world’s size to die modifiers for other digits should also have been applied.