Q regarding cargo fees

[moout_diablo]

I have a question about the fees for cargo and jump distances.

Without being too specific (I don't want to violate the TOS by accident) is bulk cargo Cr X with no limit on distance, or is a per jump cost? P,H,and S all have either per jump or per parsec costs but the text for bulk states there is no limit on distance (and says nothing about number of jumps) travelled for this class of cargo.

I'm guessing the text was meant to specify the fee is per jump but I wanted to be sure. Otherwise, this cargo is almost not worth carrying if it goes more than a single jump in distance.

Thanks!

 

[far-trader]

Yep, top of the section on Bulk Cargos, with the exception of Priority cargo all bulk cargo is per jump. So the same cargo going 1 parsec or 3 parsecs in a single jump will ship at the same Cr1000/ton. The best way to think of it is as a rate/time since all jumps regardless of distance take the same time.

It is implied that bulk cargo, again excepting priority cargo, only travels one jump (whatever the distance) and each new port of call has different cargo lots. So there is no specific cargo going 3 parses by 3 seperate jump 1 ships.

Clear as mud right

btw, regarding TOS and copyright you're fine quoting a few lines, up to about half a page, as I understand it.

 

[far-trader]

Oh yes, the reason to consider accepting bulk cargo that will require more than one jump to deliver is that it is better to get paid something than nothing if your hold isn't filled.

 

[Anthony]

That assumes that, for some bizarre reason, you are going somewhere more than one jump away without already having a reason to go there, such as a cargo.

 

[far-trader]

True enough Anthony. And really, given the amounts of most mid pop bulk cargo most PC ships will be full. I seem to recall only ever having speculative cargo in the hold for more than one jump. And that only because the best market was more than one jump away or the first intended market turned out to be cold.

Actually I prefer my own long held methodology of applying the trade tables. In my TU the trader declares their intended destination before they can begin attracting/seeking passengers and cargo. Until you announce where you are going next nobody will hire hold space or book passage. And further, I spread the result of the rolls out over the full week in port (rolling 1d6 for the day after the arrival/announcement day for each cargo lot and passenger to present to the ship for loading). Leave early and you may not get some last minute travellers and shippers but with some luck you might fill up before the full week is up and get ahead of schedule.

It does limit the usefulness of the T20 Priority cargo for Jump 1 ships, but then they can make money at the standard cargo rates anyway. I have long wondered just how to handle Priority cargo. Would there even be Priority cargo going 1 parsec? It's pretty much a moot point. But just how far does a Priority cargo lot have to go in that 2 weeks? Is it the range of the ship? Then why does it need/allow 2 weeks? Do we roll? 1d6 +1 parsecs? For each lot? ??? I just don't know what the intent was and am surprised no one has asked yet. So since I am kind of asking let's make it official, how do you all read and handle Priority cargo?

 

[moout_diablo]

Thanks.

I'm still reading the rulebook at the moment so the question of jumping more than once with cargo hasn't come up. I wanted to sort out this (and probably many more) question before running a campaign. Hopefully I'll have one ready about the time my D20F camaign comes to a good stopping point.

 

[Commander Drax]

Guys take a look at my take on this -

http://the-children-of-earth.org/traveller/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=29

As after all the freight and passage rules as found in nearly all versions of traveller have been often (and rightly) criticised. This is just my attempt to put things right.

 

[moout_diablo]

Wow, that's a pretty good idea. It makes perfect sense to pay a premium to a shipper that goes longer and faster to any particular destination.

 

[Valarian]

Looks similar to what I've been playing with for my ATU - although I haven't gone in to anywhere near that sort of detail as yet.

Basically - charge per parsec rather than per jump. If a ship can get it there quicker then they can charge a premium.

Shipping Rate = (Standard Charge * distance in parsecs) * jump rating of vessel

e.g.
A 1dt package needs to be delivered to a destination 3 parsecs away. Assuming standard charge 100Cr/dt per parsec. If a jump-3 vessel is used, it gets there in a week and costs 900Cr. If a jump-1 vessel is used the same package costs 300Cr to transport, but doesn't arrive for three weeks.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Now all I have ever done is Shipping charge x number of parsecs in this jump. (Passenger tickets work the same way. So a Sub liner making a jump of 2 parsecs would charge KCr2 for 1 ton of cargo and Kcr20 for a High Passage. The same ship making a 3 parsec jump would charge KCr3 for 1 ton of cargo and KCr30 for a high passage. If a ship is designed as a merchant ship and uses this rule then if they travel approximately 80% full and if they travel making a jump every other week, at near their jump capacity, then they can make their expenses.

What is the purpose of multiplying the jump rating of the vessel? If they are only going 2 parsecs then wouldn't a Sub-Liner be the same as a Far Trader, as far as the cargo and the passengers are concerned? It will take a week to get there, regardless.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by MtD:
Wow, that's a pretty good idea. It makes perfect sense to pay a premium to a shipper that goes longer and faster to any particular destination.

Although I have yet to review Drax' work in detail (but look forward to doing so!), I follow a similar method. I had to work out something like this given that I wanted my PCs to have a fast (high manouver) ship with some armour and some pretty decent weapons and a stealth package. Sort of a Millenium Falcon model of shipping, if you will.

The only way to justify the economics of such a ship even marginally (if we ignore smuggling, which probably factors in...) is if there is a benefit to having A) a fast M-drive to make the in-system travel far quicker (4G vs 1G - and that's pronounced in some systems, if you use jump limits for the primary that sometimes extend well beyond habitable zones!) and far safer (a heavily armed ship crewed by decorated military veterans who are bondable looks appealing to send cargo that has to move fast and be gaurded). So having some sorts of premiums for faster delivery (not just jump drive either... I packed I think J-3 and M-4 into the hull along with a monster stealth system and massive sensors) and a gaurantee of delivery even vs. threats seems like a way to make this interesting adventure capable ship also somewhat viable economically.

So it lets them have a ship that might (with a very skilled set of gunners and pilots) be able to match an SDB and can probably match a patrol cruiser or corsair and can outrun smaller threats or use stealth to hide from bigger ones... and that makes for a good game. :0)

 

[Valarian]

Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
What is the purpose of multiplying the jump rating of the vessel? If they are only going 2 parsecs then wouldn't a Sub-Liner be the same as a Far Trader, as far as the cargo and the passengers are concerned? It will take a week to get there, regardless.

It has to do with the way I use jump drives. For an explanation see this thread

Basically, a ship doesn't have to stay in jumpspace for a week. The jump rating is how fast a ship can travel in jumpspace. The rating is the number of parsecs a ship can travel in a week. A ship travelling 1 parsec with a jump-1 drive would take a week to get to it's destination. The same distance can be travelled in 3.5 days by a jump-2 vessel, or in 2 days 8 hours by a jump-3 vessel.

I haven't had time to work out the ins and outs of the economics, but the model should work as in real life we have fast courier services and freight shipping.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Valarian:
Looks similar to what I've been playing with for my ATU - although I haven't gone in to anywhere near that sort of detail as yet.

I did go to some trouble to work out details. I designed a set of 600T ships (using QSDS1.5), each with one sort of accomodation (i.e. one ship designed solely for high passengers, one designed solely for mid passengers, one ship with nothing but cargo space, etc for each of the six jump distances. I then worked out the annual operating costs of each ship and divided it by the number of passengers or tons of cargo shipped in a year (assuming an average utilization of 90%). The results were quite interesting. For long-distance transport jump-3 turned out to be the cheapest, with jump-2 and jump-4 a bit more expensive, then jump-1, jump-5, and jump-6. (Obviously this is assuming the route doesn't force the ship to jump short at any point -- for a distance of 16 parsecs jump-4 could well be cheaper than jump-3).

Note that these figures changes a bit if you use the ridiculous power plant consumption rates from the CT rules. In that case jump-2 is slightly cheaper than jump-3, with jump-1 more expensive than jump-3.

One of these days I plan to do a set of GT ships and see what prices that works out at, but so far I haven't been able to muster the energy to get started.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Valarian:
Basically, a ship doesn't have to stay in jumpspace for a week. The jump rating is how fast a ship can travel in jumpspace. The rating is the number of parsecs a ship can travel in a week. A ship travelling 1 parsec with a jump-1 drive would take a week to get to it's destination. The same distance can be travelled in 3.5 days by a jump-2 vessel, or in 2 days 8 hours by a jump-3 vessel.

Ah, a heretic! That is one of the fundamental tenets of Orthodox Traveller you're messing with there!


Hans

(No offense intended).

 

[moout_diablo]

BTL,

My original question had to do with the cost for bulk cargo being per jump or flat fee but I must admit the discussion has been much better than my question.

I think a slight premium for a faster ship (2 parsecs in 1 week, vs two for a jump 1 ship) makes perfect sense. I pay more right now if I choose Fedex express instead of UPS Ground. Of course, this would only make sense in the non bulk cargos since the bulk tends not to be in a big hurry anyway.

Interesting thread in any case.

 

[Valarian]

Ah ... my heresy spreads

Does this mean I get the Heretic label? Or is this reserved for even greater deviances from Orthodoxy?

I guess I'm playing Unorthodox Traveller then. The jump rules have come from my take on jumpspace, which is very much of the Babylon 5 flavour.

 

[Anthony]

In practice, the cost of freight transport, per jump, should resemble (operating cost of well-designed transport)/(cargo capacity of well-designed transport); note that a faster transport uses fewer jumps. Using most traveller rulesets, that works out to a roughly flat cost per parsec for J1-3 (typically the cheapest long distance ships are either J2 or J3), and then increasing cost per parsec for J4 and above.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Anthony:
In practice, the cost of freight transport, per jump, should resemble (operating cost of well-designed transport)/(cargo capacity of well-designed transport); note that a faster transport uses fewer jumps. Using most traveller rulesets, that works out to a roughly flat cost per parsec for J1-3 (typically the cheapest long distance ships are either J2 or J3), and then increasing cost per parsec for J4 and above.

Hmmm. That definition of operating cost has to include both mortgage payments and some sort of fund for future replacement (depreciation costs). It also has to include some form of profit margin.

By your argument, it should cost more to move my cargo two parsecs (jumps) on a J-1 ship vs. a J-2 ship which can do it in one jump. Only markets won't work like that - the price will fall to J-2 prices (as long as J-2 ships can be had) and the J-1 ship will have to operate at a loss.

So to know what the cost is to going rate between A and B is, you'd have to know distance apart, average cost of a well designed ship (including maintenance, depreciation, mortgage, and salaries and profit), cargo capacity of this prototypical ship, and the commonality of particular ships that could make the jump in one go and the relative scarcity of ships to cargo (if we have few ships and much cargo, then prices rise, or vice versa if ships are profligate and people drop their charges to get business). Plus of course any random factors for political or other forms of interference in the rational economic evaluation you are discussing. And the valuation likely wouldn't be static - political factors would change, supply of cargo and shipping capacity might very well vary, etc.

Sounds a bit complicated for day to day use. Fun for a simulationist or someone using a computer program to track this stuff.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by MtD:
BTL,

My original question had to do with the cost for bulk cargo being per jump or flat fee but I must admit the discussion has been much better than my question.

I think a slight premium for a faster ship (2 parsecs in 1 week, vs two for a jump 1 ship) makes perfect sense. I pay more right now if I choose Fedex express instead of UPS Ground. Of course, this would only make sense in the non bulk cargos since the bulk tends not to be in a big hurry anyway.

Interesting thread in any case.

If you simply change it to per parsec, instead of adding a premium you will see that a Far Trader is already making twice as much money per week for that same ton of cargo as a Free Trader. Changing it to per parsec instead of per jump maintaining the standard jump rules, means that the profit margins stay roughly the same regardless of the Jump capacity of the ship as long as the ship stays near its jump capacity and can now make its mortgage payments. (Which under the traditional rules no freighter in CT or T20 can make its mortgage payments, much less the rest of its expenses, if it has a jump drive greater than 1 and it is hauling bulk freight and carrying passengers.

Making that adjustment the Far Trader and Subsidized Liner can now both make a profit. (They are now inherently profitable.) Since they are, under those rules, inherently profitable, then a bank can issue a mortgage with a reasonable expectation that they will actually be paid.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Hmmm. That definition of operating cost has to include both mortgage payments and some sort of fund for future replacement (depreciation costs). It also has to include some form of profit margin.

Yes, but in practice all will tend to be proportional to ship cost, so you can just take (ship cost/cargo capacity) * some constant as the cost to move 1 dton of cargo 1 parsec. Within the Imperium, that constant will probably wind up between 0.002 and 0.004, depending on your assumptions about fill rates and jump frequency.

By your argument, it should cost more to move my cargo two parsecs (jumps) on a J-1 ship vs. a J-2 ship which can do it in one jump.

About 20% more (ship cost/cargo capacity for a J1 ship is considerably lower than for a J2). What this means in practice is that J1 ships don't carry cargo more than 1 parsec and the whole concept of the J1 main is somewhat nonsensical.

Only markets won't work like that - the price will fall to J-2 prices (as long as J-2 ships can be had) and the J-1 ship will have to operate at a loss.

Right. That cost assumes that shippers can operate at a profit. If they cannot operate at a profit, they simply cease serving that route.

Sounds a bit complicated for day to day use. Fun for a simulationist or someone using a computer program to track this stuff.

It's actually surprisingly easy. Ship costs at 1,000+ dtons are nearly linear, so you can just design 1 kT freighters to get a fair cost estimate. Building at TL 13, using HGS (TL 14 makes no difference; TL 15 would be cheaper. Unless you tweak the design costs, expect TL 15 merchant ships to drive all other shippers out of business)
J1: 270 MCr, 772 dtons cargo. Cost to move 1 dton 1 pc: 700-1400 credits
J2: 370 MCr, 632 dtons cargo. Cost to move 1 dton 2 pc: 1200-2300 credits (600-1200 credits/pc)
J3: 480 MCr, 487 dtons cargo. Cost to move 1 dton 3 pc: 2000-4000 credits (650-1300 credits/pc)
J4: 591 MCr, 346 dtons cargo. Cost to move 1 dton 4 pc: 3400-6900 credits (850-1700 credits/pc)
J5 (TL 14): 706 MCr, 205 dtons cargo. Cost to move 1 dton 5 pc: 6900-14,000 credits (1400-2800 credits/pc)

Note that this implies that CR 1,000 per parsec is a reasonable approximation for J1 to J3 shipping, which covers most PC ships.