[RAN] Modelling a modern Navy in traveller

[veltyen]

The discussion about what a system would have in the way of naval defenses brought to mind a project I was working on a while ago.

I wanted to model a modern navy in traveller vessels to get a feel for how close to real world usage traveller vessels and thoughts were.

Initially I looked at the USN, but they have too many vessels, in too many configurations to be meaningfully modelled without causing massive headaches. So instead I've modelled the RAN (Australian Navy).

With just 16 vessel types (and that includes landing craft and helicopters) a much more achievable goal.

For the translation I've taken the direct ship tonnage as dTons - the numbers while completely different seem to have the right feel to me. Helo's have become utility small craft, landing craft (ship to shore) become land craft (space to ground) and so on.

One conundrum was what to do with submarines - as there doesn't seem to be an easy way to model that behaviour. The solution I'm using is to give the vessel lots of armour and call it stealth shielding. I'm not 100% happy with that translation. Another is anti-mine vessels - there certainly would be a place for them in traveller, but it would be a very different task.

Vessel Summary

Type                  	#	Tonnage	Total 	Length	Crew

COMBAT

Patrol Boat	       14	300	4200	56	29
Guided Missile Frigate	6	4100	24600	140	210
Anzac Frigate	        8	3600	28800	120	164
Submarine	        6	3350	20100	78	45

UTILITY

Landing Craft Heavy	6	300	1800	45	13
Hydro Survey Ship	2	2550	5100	72	46
Survey Launch	        4	360	1440	37	14
AntiMine	        6	720	4320	53	39

SUPPLY

Landing Platform	2	8550	17100	160	182
Supply Vessel	        1	18000	18000	158	220
Supply Vessel	        1	25000	25000	190	60
Heavy Landing Ship	1	5800	5800	130	150

ARCHAIC (not modeled)

Sail Training Vessel	1		0	44	 

SMALLCRAFT
					
Helo	               40	30	1200	12	3
LC60	                2	60	120	23	6
LC90	                6	90	540	35	10
LifeBoat	        *       10	0	12	0

Total	              106	72820	158120		1191

Number is current number in the RAN
Tonnage is converted tonnage
Length is in metres
Crew is current crew on current vessels - this does not translate terribly well.

Comments and thoughts before I start going in to more detail?

 

[far-trader]

(waits in anticipation, warms up drive to save stuff... )

Oh, ok, I do have a comment. Re the Archaic: Not Modeled - Sail Training Vessel. I wonder... might there not be some equivalent? It sounds like an interesting idea in a way if some analogy could be found or created. I'm gonna put that on my subconscious solver

 

[aramis]

There are actually rules for wet navy and wind power in MT articles in Challenge: Wood Wind Fire and Steam, and Wet Navy Parts 1 & 2.

 

[far-trader]

Yeah, but I think veltyen is talking space navy. That's the analog I was thinking would be cool anyway. A space navy equivalent to a sail training ship. Maybe something with reaction thrusters and limited burn so you have to plot your course for long coasting. Maybe using planetary mass slingshots. Maybe doing it all without a computer, just a calculator, sextant, and tables. Something like that

 

[far-trader]

On the submarine analogy I'd say lurking SDB's. With orders and patrols similar to that of submarines. Long with no surfacing, keep the enemy guessing where and how many.

 

[Antony]

Wouldn't an odd vessel like the Annic Nova make a good "Star training" vessel?

This article on the RAN may also be of interest to you;
http://www.asd-network.com/press_de...ing_Australia_In_the_Asia_Pacific_Century.htm

Antony

 

[Icosahedron]

I've used two submarine analogies. I think they're both described elsewhere on this site:

The Black Globe Submarine - de-cloaks, fires missiles, re-cloaks - hopefully without detection thanks to its huge computer.

The Jump Submarine - J1 with lots of fuel for many jumps. Huge computer aids sensors and stealth, can 'surface' into a system, do a sensor sweep and 'dive' back into Jumpspace without refuelling.

 

[veltyen]

I've used two submarine analogies. I think they're both described elsewhere on this site:

The Black Globe Submarine - de-cloaks, fires missiles, re-cloaks - hopefully without detection thanks to its huge computer.

The Jump Submarine - J1 with lots of fuel for many jumps. Huge computer aids sensors and stealth, can 'surface' into a system, do a sensor sweep and 'dive' back into Jumpspace without refuelling.

Oooh. I like the second idea.

For the moment (since I've translated ocean going speed to jump distance) I'll keep the J4 submarine with 11 Armour. But I might need to think about it.

The first is out as I was looking at TL13 (before black globe level) as the highest TL.

 

[veltyen]

Wouldn't an odd vessel like the Annic Nova make a good "Star training" vessel?

This article on the RAN may also be of interest to you;
http://www.asd-network.com/press_de...ing_Australia_In_the_Asia_Pacific_Century.htm

Thanks for the reference. I did most of the modeling last year, so an update is useful. The Hobart and Canberra class ships are in the "future ship" draw for the moment, I have had a look at projected capabilities and stat'ed them up, but there was a chance they'd fall through due to changing governmental priorities.

The idea of merging the patrol, huon, leeuwin and paluma class vessels is a new one. I'd be a little worried that they were trying to put too many capabilities into one vessel. The patrol and hydrographic survey missions are very different, add the specialist kit of a mine hunter and you're asking for a vessel that does none of these tasks very well at all.

 

[Mithras]

Training vessel - a merchant ship, Type R? Designed to give cadets an experience of crewing a vessel, geling as a team, but without sacrficing a military vessel for the purpose. Good thing about a sailing ship is there's lots to do, and a big crew needed. What kind of stuff would a merchant ship have onboard to keep the cadets busy?

 

[veltyen]

ARCHAIC

Based on the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS_Young_Endeavour - a ship that apart from the diesel engines wouldn't be out of place in the late 17th Century.

"Space Endeavour"
Archaic training and PR vessel
Hull: 240 dTon Needle/Wedge
TL: 7
Type: Spaceship (not jump capable)
Computer: Model 2
Maneuver Drive: 2G
Power Plant: TL7 Fission, 12.6 EP
PP Fuel: 4 weeks
Weapons: 2 Hardpoints, triple Missile turret (30 rounds storage), triple Beam laser turret
Smallcraft: 2 lifeboats (10 dTon)
Fittings: Maintenance shop, Engineering shop, Sick Bay, Triple Laboratory, Autodocs (2)
Accommodation: 20 Staterooms
Airlocks: 2
Freshers: 6
Storage: 9.7 dTon
Cost: 165 MCr
Crew: 10 + 24 "passengers"

Considered by many to be an expensive toy the Space Endeavour is used to raise the profile of the navy and allow youths from all walks of life a chance at serving on a historically accurate reproduction of a old style SDB. The historical accuracy is waived where safety is concened, the autodocs and lifeboats are current naval standard equipment. On the other hand it does operate a radioactive fission reactor with the dangers and difficulties that that implies.

While theoretically armed, the missile array generally only holds pyrotechnic rounds and the beam lasers are locked to such a low power to be little more then a light show. It would be only under extremely desperate circumstances that the vessel would be readied for combat.

Service aboard the vessel is by lottery, there are no charges involved. The multiple equipment and working stations allow the youth onboard to experience many of the areas that they may need to be acquainted with on starships later in life.

                         Dton     MCr      Power
Needle/Wedge Hull         240    28.8
Bridge                    -17     1.2
Model/2 Computer           -2     4
2G Drive                  -12     8.4      -4.8
Fission Reactor           -25.2  75.6      12.6
Reactor Fuel              -12.6                      4 weeks
Triple Missile Turret      -1     3.35
Missile Stowage            -1.5   0.3
Triple Beam Laser Turret   -1     4.1       -3
Smallcraft Bays           -20     0.04
Staterooms (20)           -80    10
Freshers (6)               -3     0.012
Maintenance bay           -10     2
Engineering bay            -6     1
Laboratory                -24    15                  6 scientists
Sick bay                   -8     5
Autodocs(2)                -1     2
Airlocks(2)                -6     0.005              
Cargo space                -9.7

Total Cost: 165 Mcr
Remaining power: 4.8 (Agility 2)

 

[veltyen]

Training vessel - a merchant ship, Type R? Designed to give cadets an experience of crewing a vessel, geling as a team, but without sacrficing a military vessel for the purpose. Good thing about a sailing ship is there's lots to do, and a big crew needed. What kind of stuff would a merchant ship have onboard to keep the cadets busy?

Maybe. I also wanted to keep the historical aspect, hence the low TL. The keeping the cadets busy is why I filled the ship with distractions - Engineering bays, smallcraft maintenance bays, sick bays, laboratories. Real things that require real work to keep them tended and maintained.

 

[Starviking]

Vessel Summary

COMBAT

Guided Missile Frigate	6	4100	24600	140	210
Anzac Frigate	        8	3600	28800	120	164

Number is current number in the RAN

As a naval buff I'll have to ask - does this reflect the maximum number of Adelade Class Frigates (6) rather than their current number (4)?

 

[veltyen]

As a naval buff I'll have to ask - does this reflect the maximum number of Adelade Class Frigates (6) rather than their current number (4)?

There is a significant level of fuzziness involved. When I started this there may have been 5 still in service.

 

[veltyen]

SMALLCRAFT

Lifeboat

OK, so this one is a space dinghy, designed to replace zodiacs, lifeboats, boarding vessels and so on. Performance and armament are non-existent, as it is purely for transferring people and cargo ship-to-ship, ship-to-station and ship-to-ground at a pinch.

As such the design specifications tend towards the "minimum". That is minimum size, storage space, cost.

Type 11 Lifeboat
Minimal smallcraft
Hull: 10 dTon needle/wedge
TL: 11
Type: Smallcraft
Computer: Model/1
Maneuver Drive: 1G
Power Plant: TL11 Fusion. 0.1 EP
Power Plant Fuel: 6 weeks
Fittings: 8 smallcraft couches
Cargo: 4.5 dTon
Crew: 0 (remotely operated - can be controlled from onboard with difficulty)
Note: No bridge
Cost: 3.3 MCr

The cheapest ship that you could cross a system in, though you would never want to.

As noted above the vessel is normally remotely piloted from its parent ship, though there are emergency controls and an option of interfacing a laptop for direct control (if you really must - both of these options would be at significant penalties).

That said the avionics, communications and sensor equipment are as good as can be for a vessel of this size, and if you need to have the hardwired autopilot in charge the craft is relatively unlikely to crash, more likely it will refuse to go where you ask it too.

8 people can comfortably be aboard, though with a complete lack of other facilities long journeys aren't really a great idea. At a pinch you could cram as many as 40 people aboard though most would need to be suited up to not overly tax the minimal life support.

Mission tasks include transference of personnel and cargo. Secondary mission criteria is as a lifeboat in case of a critical failure of its parent vessel.

                          dTon    MCr     Power
Needle/Wedge Hull         10       1.2
Computer Model/1          -1       2
1G Drive                  -0.2     0.3   -0.1
Power Plant               -0.15    0.45   0.1
PP Fuel                   -0.15   
Couch (8)                 -4       0.2
Cargo                     -4.5

Total Cost: 3.3 MCr (Discounted from 4.15)
Remaining Power: 0 (Agility 0)

 

[BlackBat242]

Training vessel - a merchant ship, Type R? Designed to give cadets an experience of crewing a vessel, geling as a team, but without sacrficing a military vessel for the purpose. Good thing about a sailing ship is there's lots to do, and a big crew needed. What kind of stuff would a merchant ship have onboard to keep the cadets busy?

Outfit it with duplicate bridge, gunnery stations, and engine control rooms, all slaved to an additional bank of computers that allow them to mirror the real control positions, and deal individually with simulated situations based on individual responses.

Modify the engines/pp so that critical emergencies can be simulated that require real physical actions to correct... but without actually endangering the ship.

 

[Whipsnade]

Veltyen,

A great thread and a great idea.

May I suggest that you examine the mission of the system navy you're designing? A system navy belonging to a frontier world close to the Imperial border is going to differ substantially from that of a world in the Core Sector. Even if both worlds have the same population, government, tech level, and budget, each navy will operate in a different environment thus making each very different from the other.

Among other things, the frontier world will a have a greater need for interstellar patrolling and force projection.

A good way to begin getting a handle on your system navy's mission is to look at the stated mission(s) of the Australian Navy and how it meets them. The Australian navy is also a very good model because, as your system navy co-exists and works with the Imperial Navy, the Australian navy co-exists and works with the US Navy.

I'm looking forward very much to seeing what you come up with.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Icosahedron]

SMALLCRAFT

Lifeboat

OK, so this one is a space dinghy, designed to replace zodiacs, lifeboats, boarding vessels and so on. Performance and armament are non-existent, as it is purely for transferring people and cargo ship-to-ship, ship-to-station and ship-to-ground at a pinch.

As such the design specifications tend towards the "minimum". That is minimum size, storage space, cost.

Type 11 Lifeboat
Minimal smallcraft
Hull: 10 dTon needle/wedge
TL: 11
Type: Smallcraft
Computer: Model/1
Maneuver Drive: 1G
Power Plant: TL11 Fusion. 0.1 EP
Power Plant Fuel: 6 weeks
Fittings: 8 smallcraft couches
Cargo: 4.5 dTon
Crew: 0 (remotely operated - can be controlled from onboard with difficulty)
Note: No bridge
Cost: 3.3 MCr

The cheapest ship that you could cross a system in, though you would never want to.

You may be interested in my lifeboat (LBB5). It contains 5 ELBs, 4 for passengers and one for the pilot. It can be used as a shore boat, carrying a complement of 5 conscious personnel, or as a lifeboat, carrying 16 frozen passengers and one conscious pilot who can freeze himself to await long term rescue if necessary. The 1dT cargo bay holds a 'Crusoe Container', an impact-protected cache of survival equipment.

Just a thought - with a maximum of 36 hours in a couch, and 1G on tap, your craft won't cross a typical starsystem in one go, though you might be able to planet-hop.

 

[veltyen]

You may be interested in my lifeboat (LBB5). It contains 5 ELBs, 4 for passengers and one for the pilot. It can be used as a shore boat, carrying a complement of 5 conscious personnel, or as a lifeboat, carrying 16 frozen passengers and one conscious pilot who can freeze himself to await long term rescue if necessary. The 1dT cargo bay holds a 'Crusoe Container', an impact-protected cache of survival equipment.

The problem with this being that the primary mission is transfer rather then being a dedicated lifeboat (I couldn't think of a better name for the craft I have to admit) so the low berths and permanently installed survival equipment would be detrimental to its task.

If it wasn't obvious I'm designing using T20 - its what I have to hand, though please if you have something similar designed under other systems please feel free to add to the discussion.

Just a thought - with a maximum of 36 hours in a couch, and 1G on tap, your craft won't cross a typical starsystem in one go, though you might be able to planet-hop.

Hence why you wouldn't want too. Buckets and catheters only go so far.

 

[veltyen]

Veltyen,

A great thread and a great idea.

Thanks.

May I suggest that you examine the mission of the system navy you're designing? A system navy belonging to a frontier world close to the Imperial border is going to differ substantially from that of a world in the Core Sector. Even if both worlds have the same population, government, tech level, and budget, each navy will operate in a different environment thus making each very different from the other.

I was trying to keep the "mission profile" from each class of vessel, translated heavily obviously, but not thinking specifically of any particular location/system/political situation.

A good way to begin getting a handle on your system navy's mission is to look at the stated mission(s) of the Australian Navy and how it meets them. The Australian navy is also a very good model because, as your system navy co-exists and works with the Imperial Navy, the Australian navy co-exists and works with the US Navy.

Yes and no. It may surprise you from a US perspective, but Australia is a big fish (in a tiny tiny little pond) with many of our neighbours living in terror of an abrupt and absolute invasion and takeover.

At the moment the mission profile of the RAN tends more towards humanitarian aid, disaster recovery and policing support, though there is a frigate off doing coastal work in the gulf.

I'm looking forward very much to seeing what you come up with.

Well the next set are more of the same, for the moment I was going to go from smallest to largest - the Anzac,Adelaide,Collins let alone the (cruiser sized) supply vessels may take some time to write up.

Next on the list is the Helicopter analog - a 30 dTon Defensive Utility Craft.