Recovery for Non-Unconscious Characters in CT

[Supplement Four]

The rules as written in the core text in every edition of CT state that a minor wound is only for one characteristic reduced to zero.

No, it quite clearly says that ANY wound points applied to the character which do not reduce MORE THAN ONE physical characteristic to zero are considered MINOR WOUNDS.

If a character with 777777 stats takes damage so that he's at 677777, does that damage reduce the character to more than one physical stat at zero?

No, it doesn't. Therefore, the damage indicates a Minor Wound.



If a character with 777777 stats takes damage so that he's at 011777, does that damage reduce the character to more than one physical stat at zero?

No, it doesn't. Therefore, the damage indicates a Minor Wound.


Sigg...that's what the rule says. Why can't you see that. There is no interpretation here. The rules SAY exactly what I'm saying.

Why are we arguing about this anyway? Don posted Marc's take on the matter. What Marc intended by the rules is exactly what I've been saying*.





*With the added errata where Minor Wounds heal after combat to the half way point.



Sigg....why would you think that they'd go to all the trouble to describe Minor Wounds and Serious Wounds but not wounds that do not damage a character without reducing a single stat to zero?

There are only two types of wounds in CT. Look at page 47. It shows the two wounds. It shows how unconsciousness comes into play with regard to those two wounds. It shows the first blood rule (called Critical Hits).

Then again, on the other side of the page, there are just two wound categories, Minor Wounds and Serious Wounds.

Have you playing it by your interpretation so long that you can't accept that maybe your interpretation wasn't correct?

No, it doesn't say one way or the other. You yourself said that having characteristics reduced but none of them to zero wasn't undefined.

It does say one way or the other. I describes it quite clearly, I think.

 

[Carlobrand]

Any minute now I'm gonna figure out how to make a Venn diagram appear here.

 

[rancke]

It does say one way or the other. I describes it quite clearly, I think.

You describe it quite clearly. The original Book 1 doesn't. Nowhere does it explicitly mention no stats reduced to zero. Nowhere that I can find, anyway.

Not that it matters.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

You describe it quite clearly. The original Book 1 doesn't. Nowhere does it explicitly mention no stats reduced to zero. Nowhere that I can find, anyway.

Wouldn't you say that the sentence, "ANY wound points applied to the character which do not reduce MORE THAN ONE physical characteristic to zero are considered MINOR WOUNDS," includes both damage that reduces physicals without a zeroed stat and damage the includes a zeroed stat?

Both conditions do not reduce more than one physical characteristic, yes?

 

[Enoki]

Any minute now I'm gonna figure out how to make a Venn diagram appear here.

Are you looking for something like this in a "Grand unification theory?"

 

[Carlobrand]

For the record, do we all understand that we are hotly debating the definition of a word - "minor" - that does not in fact appear in that context in CT Book 1? It was an addition in The Traveller Book, and it appears to have done more to create controversy than to clarify.

Book 1 does not directly address the issue of healing of the character who manages to take a wound without a stat going to zero. One is left to infer that he heals the same way the 1-stat-0 character heals, or to make up a house rule:

"Wound points are applied to the target's (defending character's) strength, dexterity, and endurance on a temporary basis. ..."

"When any one characteristic is reduced to zero by wounds, the character is rendered unconscious. When two have been reduced to zero, the character has been seriously wounded. When all three have been reduced to zero, the character is dead. Once a characteristic has been reduced to zero, further points may not be applied to it; they must be applied to other (non-zero) characteristics.

"Unconscious characters (with at least one characteristic reduced to zero) recover consciousness after ten minutes (40 combat rounds) with all characteristics temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength and the wounded level. For example, a character with a strength of 8 who is wounded to a strength of 4 (and rendered unconscious through the zeroing of another characteristic) becomes strength 6 when he regains consciousness, and remains so until recovered. Round fractions against the character. A return to full strength for the character requires medical attention (a medical kit and an individual with at least medical-1 skill), or three days of rest."

The Traveller Book repeats that verbatim but adds the line, "The individual is considered to have sustained minor wounds," in that final paragraph, after the first sentence. It does not define what a person who was wounded but did not go to zero is considered to have, but it then adds a table (page 47) where the hotly debated phrase appears. And, yes, if you drew a Venn diagram of that hotly debated phrase, the person with the wound who did not go to 0 would indeed appear in the "minor wound" circle. It was supposed to have clarified the issue. Clearly, that effort left something to be desired.

Are you looking for something like this in a "Grand unification theory?"

THAT'S IT!!!

 

[mike wightman]

No, it quite clearly says that ANY wound points applied to the character which do not reduce MORE THAN ONE physical characteristic to zero are considered MINOR WOUNDS.

There in lies the problem - it doesn't clearly state. The wording is open to interpretation and isn't matched by the text in the actual combat rules.

No more than one means less than two, if it clearly stated that a minor wound is the description used for any wound that reduces no characteristics to zero we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If a character with 777777 stats takes damage so that he's at 677777, does that damage reduce the character to more than one physical stat at zero?

No, it doesn't. Therefore, the damage indicates a Minor Wound.

By your reading of the sidebar and your interpretation of it yes.

But by application of the rules text and by other interpretations of it - no.

If a character with 777777 stats takes damage so that he's at 011777, does that damage reduce the character to more than one physical stat at zero?

No, it doesn't. Therefore, the damage indicates a Minor Wound.

Correct, no problem with this bit.

Sigg...that's what the rule says. Why can't you see that. There is no interpretation here. The rules SAY exactly what I'm saying.

Because the text doesn't support the side bar and vice versa. And the side bar is open to interpretation.

Why are we arguing about this anyway? Don posted Marc's take on the matter. What Marc intended by the rules is exactly what I've been saying*.

Oh the daft typing is that your interpretation is pretty similar to how I've down it for years too - except I call the less than one stat either a light wound or a superficial wound - a couple of staples, some antiseptic and antibiotics, a bit of pair relief and you are good to go, or rest for a few hours...

*With the added errata where Minor Wounds heal after combat to the half way point.

That doesn't really need errata - that's the way it has always been done. the question is how long it takes someone who has had no stats reduced to zero to then fully recover.

Sigg....why would you think that they'd go to all the trouble to describe Minor Wounds and Serious Wounds but not wounds that do not damage a character without reducing a single stat to zero?

Because the superficial wounds were intended to be temporary and fully recovered after a bit of rest and treatment?
The minor wound state could hamper a character for several days.

There are only two types of wounds in CT. Look at page 47. It shows the two wounds. It shows how unconsciousness comes into play with regard to those two wounds. It shows the first blood rule (called Critical Hits).

And it is the poor wording of this summary that has lead to this discussion.

Then again, on the other side of the page, there are just two wound categories, Minor Wounds and Serious Wounds.

Yup, and to be classed as in the minor wound category at least one stat has to have been reduced to zero, that's what it says in the combat text in every edition.

Have you playing it by your interpretation so long that you can't accept that maybe your interpretation wasn't correct?

Right back at you

However as a footnote, I was playing and reffing CT for a few years before TTB was published. With a few years of no sidebar on page 47 to confuse things then dealing with superficial damage is something that requires a house rule. And yes, I can see how the sidebar can be interpreted the way you say but its fun to discuss stuff like this.

 

[Supplement Four]

No more than one means less than two, if it clearly stated that a minor wound is the description used for any wound that reduces no characteristics to zero we wouldn't be having this discussion.

It says that. ANY damage (that means a minimum of one point) that doesn't reduce more than one physical characteristic to zero.

That means you can have damage with no physical at zero and damage with one physical at zero.

But by application of the rules text and by other interpretations of it - no.

Please quote the rules in the text that you say damage with no stats at zero is not a Minor Wound.

Because the text doesn't support the side bar and vice versa.

Again...what doesn't support? Quote what you are referring to, or give me a page number, because I don't see where the text does't support the rules on page 47.

That doesn't really need errata - that's the way it has always been done.

After combat, you're saying that it's always been done that damage where no stat has gone to zero is raised to the half way point after combat?

That's not how it's always been done, and nothing in the Traveller Book says to do that (it only says to do it when a character is knocked unconscious).

... the question is how long it takes someone who has had no stats reduced to zero to then fully recover.

It says that. Minor Wound recovery. 3 days of rest, or 30 minutes and attention by a Medic-1 with a medkit.

Because the superficial wounds were intended to be temporary and fully recovered after a bit of rest and treatment?
The minor wound state could hamper a character for several days.

Technically, there are no "Superficial Wounds" in Classic Trav. There's Just Minor Wounds and Serious Wounds.

I wonder if you are confusing the old Medical Treatment article from JTAS. IIRC, that article does include Superficial Wounds and is more along the lines of what you are thinking.

 

[DonM]

Wow, but my brain... my brain!!! All those "go to" statements break my brain.

I know, but it was the only way to resolve ALL of the many e-mails Marc's received on the issue over the years.

Apparently this is a big item. That I keep accidentally leaving out of the errata.

Ok, last chance to fix something...

 

[mike wightman]

So something really positive came from the discussion

 

[Supplement Four]

Minor Wounds and the Text in Book 1 and the Traveller Book



The text in Book 1 and the Traveller Book does speak to wounds where no stat is at zero, albeit in a backhanded, confusing way.

The text on page 36 of TTB (page 34 of Book 1) describes how to handle characters who have been revived from unconsciousness after one stat has been reduced to zero.

These characters have wounded physical stats but have no stat at zero.

TTB describes these characters as having a Minor Wound. Book 1 doesn't, but healing is the same: 30 minutes and attention by a character with Medic-1 skill and access to a medkit.

It's not a big leap of logic or common sense to treat characters who have been damaged but never have a stat a zero the same way (and, in fact, this is exactly what TTB does).

 

[Supplement Four]

Ok, last chance to fix something...

As I said when I tested it, it looks good to me. Let 'er rip.

 

[mike wightman]

I'll post the full quote again:

Unconscious characters (with at least one characteristic
reduced to zero) recover consciousness after ten minutes
(40 combat rounds) with all three physical characteristics
temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength
and the wounded level. The individual is considered to have
sustained minor wounds. For example, a character with a
strength of 8 who is wounded to a strength of 4 (and
rendered unconscious through the zeroing of another
characteristic) becomes strength 6 when he regains consciousness,
and remains so until recovered. Round fractions
against the character. A return to full strength for the
character requires medical attention (a medical kit and an
individual with at least medical-I skill) or three days of
rest.

The bold bits are the important phrases.

The sidebar on page 47:

Any wound points applied to a
character which do not reduce more
than one physical characteristic to zero
are considered minor wounds. The
character is treated as having the reduced
characteristics until medical care
or recovery has taken place.

The key phrase here is:

which do not reduce more
than one physical characteristic to zero
are considered minor wounds

Now you interpret that as meaning none or one characteristic reduced to zero, which the text in the books does not mention (by the way I think this is a perfectly reasonable interpretation). The text in the book only mentions a minor wound being suffered if one characteristic is reduced to zero. Find me a quote to prove otherwise and I'll concede the point

 

[aramis]

I'll post the full quote again:

The bold bits are the important phrases.

The sidebar on page 47:


The key phrase here is:

Now you interpret that as meaning none or one characteristic reduced to zero, which the text in the books does not mention (by the way I think this is a perfectly reasonable interpretation). The text in the book only mentions a minor wound being suffered if one characteristic is reduced to zero. Find me a quote to prove otherwise and I'll concede the point

Unconscious characters (with at least one characteristic
reduced to zero) recover consciousness after ten minutes
(40 combat rounds) with all three physical characteristics
temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength
and the wounded level. The individual is considered to have
sustained minor wounds. For example, a character with a
strength of 8 who is wounded to a strength of 4 (and
rendered unconscious through the zeroing of another
characteristic) becomes strength 6 when he regains consciousness,
and remains so until recovered. Round fractions
against the character. A return to full strength for the
character requires medical attention (a medical kit and an
individual with at least medical-I skill) or three days of
rest.​

The bold here in sentence 1 of the paragraph implies strongly that it ONLY applies to unconscious characters - and you're conscious until one is zeroed.

 

[Supplement Four]

The text in the book only mentions a minor wound being suffered if one characteristic is reduced to zero.

Actually, it says after a character recovers unconsciousness, when no stat is at zero, the character is considered to have a Minor Wound.

Quote, page 36: Unconscious characters (with at least one characteristic reduced to zero) recover consciousness after ten minutes (40 combat rounds) with all three physical characteristics temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength and the wound level. The individual is considered to have sustained minor wounds.

When a character recovers from unconsciousness, he has wounded stats, but he has no characteristic at zero. And in this state--wounded with no stat at zero--that the character is considered to have a Minor Wound.

I made this very same point above.

Find me a quote to prove otherwise and I'll concede the point

OK. See the quote above, and pay attention to the part that says, "...with all three physical characteristics temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength and the wound level. The individual is considered to have sustained minor wounds."

And, this is, of course, also supported on page 47 with the Wound definitions, and the quote that says, "Any wound points applied to a character which do not reduce more than one physical characteristic to zero are considered minor wounds."

 

[aramis]

Let's see...
Page TTB 35-36, Bk1-81 34, Bk1-77PDF 31, ST(B1) 21:

When any one characteristic is reduced to zero by
wounds, the character is rendered unconscious. When two
have been reduced to zero, the character has been seriously
wounded. When all three have been reduced to zero, the
character is dead. Once a characteristic has been reduced to
zero, further points may not be applied to it; they must be
applied to other (non-zero) characteristics.

Unconscious characters (with at least one characteristic
reduced to zero) recover consciousness after ten minutes
(40 combat rounds) with all three physical characteristics
temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength
and the wounded level. The individual is considered to have
sustained minor wounds. For example, a character with a
strength of 8 who is wounded to a strength of 4 (and
rendered unconscious through the zeroing of another
characteristic) becomes strength 6 when he regains consciousness,
and remains so until recovered. Round fractions
against the character. A return to full strength for the
character requires medical attention (a medical kit and an
individual with at least medical-I skill) or three days of
rest.

Unconscious characters with two characteristics reduced
to zero are considered seriously wounded and recover
consciousness after three hours. Their characteristics
remain at the wounded level (or 1, whichever is higher).
Recovery is dependent on medical attention (a medical
facility and an individual with medical3 skill; recuperation
to full strength without medical attention is not possible).​

No mention of situation for none reduced to zero.

TTB 47 and ST(B2) 7, however, reads:

Minor Wounds
Any wound points applied to a
character which do not reduce more
than one physical characteristic to zero
are considered minor wounds. The
character is treated as having the reduced
characteristics until medical care
or recovery has taken place.​

Note the disconnect between TTB 35 and TTB 47? I do. Note that the TTB 47 summary isn't in Bk 1 (either edition).

I suspect that S4 is correct in his interpretation, as the summary page in TTB and ST (written later; TTB is the '82 edition of CT) is a clarification.

I know that my Ref back in HS (lacking TTB) treated none at zero as superficial. Recover to halfway at 10 minutes, then the rest after medical treatment or a night's sleep.

 

[mike wightman]

I agree with his interpretation too.

My point all along though has been that it is an interpretation of a vague side bar not backed up by the text in any edition.

Common sense is that S4 is interpreting the intent correctly - pretty much as we all diid back in the day - and it is now borne out by the errata (only 34 years in the making )

 

[aramis]

I agree with his interpretation too.

My point all along though has been that it is an interpretation of a vague side bar not backed up by the text in any edition.

Common sense is that S4 is interpreting the intent correctly - pretty much as we all diid back in the day - and it is now borne out by the errata (only 34 years in the making )

It's NOT a "sidebar" - it's part of a rules summary page. that's a HUGE difference. Sidebar is, at least in the context you're using, an extremely strongly implied dismissive.

It's not a sidebar at all. The page it appears on is a rules summary page. Most TTB users are going to look first at the summary pages, not the body text. Likewise, most Starter Traveller players.

Especially those of us who grew up using chapter summaries and cliff-notes, not the internet and searchable PDFs.

 

[Supplement Four]

Let's see...
Page TTB 35-36, Bk1-81 34, Bk1-77PDF 31, ST(B1) 21:

When any one characteristic is reduced to zero by
wounds, the character is rendered unconscious. When two
have been reduced to zero, the character has been seriously
wounded. When all three have been reduced to zero, the
character is dead. Once a characteristic has been reduced to
zero, further points may not be applied to it; they must be
applied to other (non-zero) characteristics.

Unconscious characters (with at least one characteristic
reduced to zero) recover consciousness after ten minutes
(40 combat rounds) with all three physical characteristics
temporarily placed at a value half way between full strength
and the wounded level. The individual is considered to have
sustained minor wounds. For example, a character with a
strength of 8 who is wounded to a strength of 4 (and
rendered unconscious through the zeroing of another
characteristic) becomes strength 6 when he regains consciousness,
and remains so until recovered. Round fractions
against the character. A return to full strength for the
character requires medical attention (a medical kit and an
individual with at least medical-I skill) or three days of
rest.

Unconscious characters with two characteristics reduced
to zero are considered seriously wounded and recover
consciousness after three hours. Their characteristics
remain at the wounded level (or 1, whichever is higher).
Recovery is dependent on medical attention (a medical
facility and an individual with medical3 skill; recuperation
to full strength without medical attention is not possible).​

No mention of situation for none reduced to zero.

What happens when a character that is reduced to unconsciousness is revived? He no longer has a physical stat at zero, right?

Isn't that a situation where none of the physical stats are at zero?

Isn't that mentioned above?

I made bold the text in your quote.

 

[Supplement Four]

I know that my Ref back in HS (lacking TTB) treated none at zero as superficial. Recover to halfway at 10 minutes, then the rest after medical treatment or a night's sleep.

The first time that I saw CT wounds take on a third category where no physical stat at zero was in a wound class all by itself was with Terry McInnes and Marc Desmond's variant rules published in JTAS #11. This was published in 1981.

Is it possible that your Ref used those variant rules described in the article, Medical Treatment in Traveller?

In that article, wounds are classified in three categories--

Light Wounds are those that do not take any physical stat to zero.

Moderate Wounds are those that take one physical stat to zero.

Severe Wounds are those that take two physical stats to zero.





Unconsciousness is mandatory with Moderate and Severe wounds in those alternate rules. Moderate wounds reduce a character to unconsciousness for 10 minutes due to shock. Severe wounds mandate unconsciousness due to severe shock and coma from blood loss.