CT Only: Ref's and Players and GUNS!
- Thread starter Supplement Four
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Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
In Texas, we just passed Open Carry last year. But, I haven't seen one person openly carrying a weapon--anywhere.
Licensed concealed carry, though? There's a lot of us--some people are surprised because you never know who is armed.
What does it take to get weapon permits when visiting a high law level planet?
Does player nobility have any impact?
Does local nobility have any impact?
What if the PC nobles are expected to have a weapon, in this case, a cutlass and/or daggers?
What if the other weapons are tranq or stun?
Trying out the mythic game master emulator, the local Baron's was there to ask the PCs to visit at the time (scene altered positively) and the question was "Can we get weapons permits for self-defense?", probability unlikely and the answer came up exceptional yes.
For what it's worth the LL is 8. PCs have gauss pistols or stunners, 1 cutlass, 2 longswords and 3 daggers. The long blades came with Knighthoods.
Does player nobility have any impact?
Does local nobility have any impact?
What if the PC nobles are expected to have a weapon, in this case, a cutlass and/or daggers?
What if the other weapons are tranq or stun?
Trying out the mythic game master emulator, the local Baron's was there to ask the PCs to visit at the time (scene altered positively) and the question was "Can we get weapons permits for self-defense?", probability unlikely and the answer came up exceptional yes.
For what it's worth the LL is 8. PCs have gauss pistols or stunners, 1 cutlass, 2 longswords and 3 daggers. The long blades came with Knighthoods.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
That's one direction you can go with SOC and LL- the higher the SOC the less LL applies to you, and vice versa.
Which, if you went to the logical conclusion, would make for real trouble with mixed SOC player parties.
"Of course milord can carry that laser pistol, but surely your lordship understands these riff raff servants of yours cannot carry shotguns".
And just what do you think my experience is? While we're discussing preconceptions. You're 0 for 1 on assumptions so far.
Let's cut to the chase: I made the point that, although worlds vary, most people don't go armed most of the time.
You objected that there are exceptions. Apparently, my statement was too dogmatic.
As I said at the start, "worlds vary." I'm struggling to see where you actually disagree with my point.
Supplement Four said:
Based on licensing rates, 5 - 10%; Kleck has 11% based on survey data, although that data is now over 20 years old.
So, this is not "most of the people" by any means. Although I would concede that, PCs being the kinds of people who would be more likely to go armed, where the concealed option is available I would assume they would take advantage.
On the open carry point, as you observe, what the law allows and what people conventionally do are two separate things. Doing things that are unusual, albeit legal, is a good way to attract attention -- which in the usual context of a Traveller game, is something PCs prefer to avoid.
Context matters, which of course is a point I made right at the start: "worlds vary."
Conventionally, I assume that getting permits on a high law-level planet may not be as hard as one might think. PCs will not ordinarily be able to get any permit that a local can't; this would be very difficult, because outsiders are conventionally seen as less reliable than locals. To get a permit that a local can, on the other hand, will usually be a simple matter of demonstrating that you meet the conditions required of a local.
Spartan159 said:
In my view, contrary to some White-Hat-Imperium stuff that infects the canon, nobles are not actually subject to local law. They adhere to it by convention, for diplomatic reasons, but they enjoy immunity (just as diplomats do in our world). Again, convention (nobles pay lip service to local law for diplomatic reasons) rather than rules (nobles are subject to the law).
So: nobles can very easily carry ceremonial weapons and concealed weapons, but could not obviously and openly flout local law.
This convention of lip service to local law is powerful, because the diplomatic responsibility is tied to the Imperial culture of honour and noblesse oblige. Those weapons carried by the noble and his bodyguards are only going to be used if no other options exist, because it looks bad when you come for a visit and kill the locals.
Also, note that nobles, like the local powers that be, may have armed bodyguards because of their position. When you are the law, you get a different set of rules.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
They may need bonds to insure that the weapons are only used in legally defined self defence.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Unless you live in Wasilla, Alaska, any time after 1948. Then, any blade over 2" is a weapon, no matter the use you have for it... and any blade over 12" may not be carried on one's person. Mind you, you can carry a firearm openly on your person, but not a machete, a 13" chef's knife nor fillet knife...
Real world prohibitions often have someone's name attached, or an arrest with "You can't charge him with that, as it's not actually prohibited". And those that don't...
That's a definition in local law, which actually reinforces my point: it is necessary for Wasilla to define in law the point at which a knife becomes a weapon precisely because a knife is not inherently a weapon. But this particular rabbit hole leads nowhere.
This example, incidentally, illustrates just how blunt an instrument the law level guidelines are when it comes to what weapons are and are not permitted by law level. Wasilla bans all blades, yet allows open carry (and presumably, in line with state law, concealed carry of "body pistols" sans permit). What LL is that?
Several rules lawyers are now shouting that this "Wasilla" you have invented cannot exist.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
That's a definition in local law, which actually reinforces my point: it is necessary for Wasilla to define in law the point at which a knife becomes a weapon precisely because a knife is not inherently a weapon. But this particular rabbit hole leads nowhere.
This example, incidentally, illustrates just how blunt an instrument the law level guidelines are when it comes to what weapons are and are not permitted by law level. Wasilla bans all blades, yet allows open carry (and presumably, in line with state law, concealed carry of "body pistols" sans permit). What LL is that?
Several rules lawyers are now shouting that this "Wasilla" you have invented cannot exist.
Another distinction that can be made is limiting body armor by LL- in most versions it doesn't, I think the MgT1E Agents book did suggest limits.
For CT BD should probably limit pretty early, maybe 2-3, CA somewhere around 5. Reflec could arguably be treated at either the same level BD or CA is illegal.
Here is a fun idea for those who like their worlds wild and surprising- use LL as the basic throw that X is illegal.
Players want to do X? You don't KNOW that it's illegal for that planet. Roll below LL, it's illegal, or conversely, roll at or above and it's legal.
Perhaps have modifiers for commonly regulated acts like robbery or murder or rebellion or mass murder, higher mods for more heinous crimes.
Use a similar mod system for the weapons- for CT weapons, maybe their die damage as DM (so a typical 3D weapon might be treated with a -3 DM- example LL 5 with a 3D, roll 8+ for it to be legal, 7- illegal).
Or use the broad categories of weapons in the canon LL.
By the time you get to LL A, most EVERYTHING one can do is illegal.
This could yield odd legal regimes where laser rifles and murder are legal but broadswords or jaywalking carries stiff penalties.
Troublesome to roll out for every world, but could yield fun and some strange situations for special adventures and unusual planets.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I don't think ballistic cloth armour should be illegal, and with more advanced fibres that are more resistance, thinner and flexible, hard to control.
Rigid armour should be restricted.
Reflec would be like chainmail, useful for professions where a lot of cutting is involved, such as slaughterhouses.
Rigid armour should be restricted.
Reflec would be like chainmail, useful for professions where a lot of cutting is involved, such as slaughterhouses.
I interpret law level to mean two things:
- To what extend does the state interfere with the affairs of its people?
- To what extent does the state place a monopoly on violence?
(The second clearly applies to this thread.)
So a throw against LL is a reasonable way to determine what's banned and what isn't, for those things that aren't already considered.
Re armour, you can bet cloth armour would be prohibited under oppressive regimes.
So, you've never seen the ST:TOS episode "A Piece of the Action"?
The idea of a knife not being weapon is foreign. I don't think anyone considers a firearm on a desk a paperweight.
Of course, Back In The Day, in the back of old SoF magazines, they used to sell "Brass Knuckle Paperweights". You know, "for decorative purposes only".
Or the plastic/composite knives. "Lightweight, won't corrode, easy to clean!"
Agreed. That closely follows the spirit, if not the exact black letter, of LLB:3's definition of Law Level and the examples of it's use; i.e. roll LL to see how often you "interact" with the police.
Initially, Law Level and Government code were play focused guides. Both indicated how the players interacted with and perceived the systems in question.
Both codes, however, quickly metastasized into model focused labels which attempted to describe complex systems in one number. I'll point to the expansions for both in MT's World Builders Handbook as an example of this.
And yet, in many places, civilian body armor is in fact outlawed while ownership of weapons isn't.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
That, I believe, has more to do with law enforcement being able to shoot you.
In Traveller terms, standard military smallarms are likely gauss based, or at a stretch, an advanced combat rifle, and though I don't recall having seen it mentioned, an advanced burst fire/semi automatic pistol.
Likely, also issued to the local law enforcement agencies.
So anything below that, the public should have access to.
Depending on the given law level.
In Traveller terms, standard military smallarms are likely gauss based, or at a stretch, an advanced combat rifle, and though I don't recall having seen it mentioned, an advanced burst fire/semi automatic pistol.
Likely, also issued to the local law enforcement agencies.
So anything below that, the public should have access to.
Depending on the given law level.
It's the English common law, so no, it's not an unusual idea.
Note that CT was essentially Vietnam-Era US for survival/Officer-promotion/Retention, and Cr1=US$1, so it's likely that the law levels are similarly US based. And US common law has been all over the place on the weaponness of any knife, and generally, has held that a knife is a weapon that has utility uses, not a tool that has weapon uses...
