• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Replacement Trade System

tbeard1999

SOC-14 1K
EDITED: Added Skills and Optional Crew Salaries; revised the Risky Table; Revised Starship Finance Chart.

As noted before, I don't like the cargo and speculative trade systems in CT. The cargo/passenger generation system is static (i.e., it generates cargo and passenger quantities independent of ship size), which rewards smaller ships and punishes larger ship. The speculation system, with a few lucky rolls, can create massive infusions of wealth in a campaign that may destroy the type of campaign I want to run. And both systems compete with adventures.

So here's what I do.

1. Assumptions

No matter what kind of ship they have, I assume that the PC's ship can (barely) break even over the long term, paying all fuel costs, maintenance costs, life support, bank payments, etc. I assume that no salaries are paid for any crewmen. Note that they beak even on cash flow; they actually turn a decent economic profit by paying down the bank note on their ship. But like most business owners, their wealth is tied up in equipment and is not easily convertible to cash in the short term. Spending money is created by adventures...

When the bank is finally paid off, the additional maintenance costs for such an old ship (as well as shabbier condition) somewhat offsets the fact that there are no monthly payments. EDIT -- this modifier does NOT apply to rolls on the Risky Table.

2. System

a. Determine the base ROI. This is the starting value of the ship in Credits x 0.0004. Round to nearest Cr1000 for convenience. So a Free Trader (MCr37.08) has base ROI of Cr15,000.

Each month, the players roll 2d6 to determine their economic performance. If they are engaged in normal trade, use the Normal Trade Chart. Optional -- if they are engaged in risky (i.e., speculative) trade, use the Risky Trade Chart:

Code:
Normal Trade Table

2	-2
3	-2
4	-1
5	-1
6	0
7	0
8	0
9	+1
10	+1
11	+2
12	+2

Risky Trade Table (1d6) -- Optional
1	-8
2	-3
3	-1
4	+1
5	+3
6	+9

Note: Unless explicitely stated otherwise, NO modifiers apply to the Risk Trade Table.

Multiply the number by the base ROI and that's how the ship has done that month. If the ship is paid off, modify the roll by the following:

0-19 Year Old Ship: +3
20-29 Year Old Ship: +2
30-49 Year Old Ship: +1
50+ Year Old Ship: +0

b. Reduce this number by the monthly salaries of NPC starship crewmen (players are assumed to work for shares--but see optional rules below).

3. Speculation

This is assumed by the use of the risky chart. In addition, the referee may make additional economic opportunities available, but this is always provided as part of the adventure and not automatically.

4. Other Notes

To make it easy on players and referees, charters are expressed as the amount in excess of normal revenue. So while a charter might actually pay Cr100,000 for a month, it will be described as a Cr40,000 (or whatever) job. That's what the PCs net after payment of expenses (and this will also be reduced by NPC crew costs). If the ship is engaged in a charter, no roll is made for that period.

5. Loan Payoffs and Starship Equity

I also create an chart for each starship showing the loan balance and how much the ship is worth:

Code:
Starship Finance Chart

Year	Balance	FMV	Equity
1	 79.4 	99.5	 20.08 
2	 78.8 	99	 20.20 
3	 78.2 	98.5	 20.35 
4	 77.5 	98	 20.53 
5	 76.7 	97.5	 20.75 
6	 76.0 	97	 21.01 
7	 75.2 	96.5	 21.32 
8	 74.3 	96	 21.67 
9	 73.4 	95.5	 22.06 
10	 72.5 	94.5	 22.01 
11	 71.5 	93.5	 22.00 
12	 70.4 	92.5	 22.06 
13	 69.3 	91.5	 22.17 
14	 68.2 	90.5	 22.34 
15	 66.9 	89.5	 22.57 
16	 65.6 	88.5	 22.88 
17	 64.2 	87.5	 23.25 
18	 62.8 	86.5	 23.71 
19	 61.3 	85.5	 24.24 
20	 59.6 	84	 24.36 
21	 57.9 	82.5	 24.56 
22	 56.1 	81	 24.86 
23	 54.2 	79.5	 25.26 
24	 52.2 	78	 25.77 
25	 50.1 	76.5	 26.38 
26	 47.9 	75	 27.12 
27	 45.5 	73.5	 27.97 
28	 43.0 	72	 28.96 
29	 40.4 	70.5	 30.08 
30	 37.7 	68	 30.35 
31	 34.7 	65.5	 30.77 
32	 31.6 	63	 31.35 
33	 28.4 	60.5	 32.10 
34	 25.0 	58	 33.04 
35	 21.3 	55	 33.66 
36	 17.5 	52	 34.48 
37	 13.5 	49	 35.51 
38	 9.2 	46	 36.77 
39	 4.7 	43	 38.26 
40	 0.0 	40	 39.99 
50	 -   	17	 17.00 
60	 -   	12	 12.00 
70	 -   	4	 4.00

"Balance" is the percentage of the initial purchase price of the ship that is owed at the end of the year. So a ship originally worth MCr100 will have a loan payoff of MCr78.8 at the end of year 2. If the loan is paid off during a year, interpolate (or use the previous year's payoff to reflect early payoff penalties).

"FMV" is a percentage multiplied by the starting value of the ship to determing the fair market value of the ship. This assumes normal wear and tear, with everything in servicable condition. Referees may reduce this to reflect extremes. So the MCr100 ship above is worth MCr98.

"Equity" is the theoretical value of the ship and is calculated by subtracting Balance from FMV. This is the theoretical profit you could sell a ship for. However, brokers or wholesalers will reduce this somewhat. A used starship dealer will only give you 78%+2d6% of FMV, from which you'll have to subtract the Balance to determine profit. A Broker will take 50% of the profit on a sale, but can usually find a buyer for full FMV in 2d6-1 months.

My Commonwealth campaign uses different assumptions for starship costs, but the values above have been normalized for Classic Traveller.

EDIT: Here's a spreadsheet that you can use to generate a custom Starship Finance Chart. Thread link.

7. Optional Crew Salary System. The roll assumes the full payment of all required crew salaries. If PCs fill these roles, they get the salary that month. However -- this system partially defeats my goal of requiring adventures to be the primary source of spare cash for adventurers. In this case, a PC will get Cr1,000 to 6,000 per month.

8.Rainmaking. (optional). The 2d6 system is simply too sensitive to give a standard "+1 per skill level" to the roll. However, there is a way to make skills matter. The system assumes that PCs spend their time doing jobs required to run the ship. However one or more PCs can spend a month applying their talents to improving business. This is called "Rainmaking".

Any PC that does this cannot perform a normal starship job. So his job must be paid for (in the standard system, a replacement must be hired and paid that month; in the Optional Crew Salaries system, the PC won't earn the salary for his job).

So, Biff Redstone, who is normally the Pilot, will have to be replaced if he spends a month Rainmaking. His replacement will require Cr6,000 that month, per LBB2.

The PC makes a Rainmaking roll (2d6; 8+; DM +1 per level of applicable skill). If he succeeds, the ship gets a +1 to the roll on the "normal" table trade table.

If he rolls a natural "12" the ship makes 2xROI, but has established a new relationship that wil increase the next (1d6) monthly rolls by +1.

If he rolls a natural "2" the ship loses 2xROI and modify the next (1d6) monthly rolls by -1 (he enraged a key customer).

In most cases, the following skills should be applicable -- broker, trader, and carousing.

Depending on the setting, admin (in a tightly regulated economy) or bribery (in a corrupt economy) might be useful.

Depending on the referee's conception of Jack of All Trades, it might be useful (at -1 perhaps).

I think that a Steward could affect passenger satisfaction, but I don't think that the net effect is enough to warrant a +1 on the Rainmaker roll. Depends on the referee's conception of the campaign I suppose.

Any number of PCs can make this roll, but the total benefit available to the party is +1. However, any PC that rolls can't do a starship job as above. All rainmaking attempts for the month must be declared before any rolls are made.

FYI -- statistically, this means that a successful rainmaker will earn his Free Trader Cr7,000 per month. However, his starship job will need to be replaced. It's a much better idea to let the Gunner (Cr1000 per month) do it than the Pilot (Cr6000 per month). Rainmakers will be more profitable on larger ships.

To limit its applicability, require that Rainmakers have an applicable skill.

Rainmakers can always use their ship skills during an adventure.

Rainmaking is not available for the "risky" table.
 
Last edited:
My Replacement Trade Concept

Good point, Ty -- larger ships do get punished, and this feels like a flaw, even though I do tend to think traffic is rather low.

It does seem reasonable that the system could be extended to handle the freighters from The Traveller Adventure.

Here's my thoughts for managing freight (I haven't thought about speculation):

Major: 100s of tons, no subdividing allowed.
Minor: 10s of tons, subdivision allowed.
Incidental: 1s of tons, subdivision allowed.

Minor lots are more or less a combination of CT major and minor lots.
 
A generally nice idea.
More 'results oriented' and less 'fussy detail' oriented.

What about skills?
Is this intended for 'adventuring parties' more than a 'merchnat prince' type of character?

For example Joe has Admin-2, Trader-3 and Broker-1, and is always shaking the trees looking to make a deal.
Phil has lots of combat skills and Admin-0 so he can work 'security' and fill in as a 'cargo officer' in a pinch.
How would this system affect them differently?

PS. No FTL Comms I assume. :)
[It was just a Joke! ;)]
 
1. Assumptions

No matter what kind of ship they have, I assume that the PC's ship can (barely) break even over the long term, paying all fuel costs, maintenance costs, life support, bank payments, etc. I assume that no salaries are paid for any crewmen.
I'm sorry, but if this assumption is true, I don't see any motivation for my character to not just get off the ship at the next stop and get a job that pays.

If they own the ship, sell it or at least sell their share in it.
 
A generally nice idea.
More 'results oriented' and less 'fussy detail' oriented.

What about skills?
Is this intended for 'adventuring parties' more than a 'merchnat prince' type of character?

I'd use Trader/Broker as a DM to the roll. Maybe use Trader for "Risky" and Broker for "Normal", or the other way around.
 
I'm sorry, but if this assumption is true, I don't see any motivation for my character to not just get off the ship at the next stop and get a job that pays.

If they own the ship, sell it or at least sell their share in it.

That's what the 'Adventures' are for.
All Ty's System assumes is that the ship is a plot device to move the party between adventures rather than a money machine that eliminates the need for adventures (or an anchor that guarantees that no adventure can ever earn enough to pay the bills).
 
That's what the 'Adventures' are for.
All Ty's System assumes is that the ship is a plot device to move the party between adventures rather than a money machine that eliminates the need for adventures (or an anchor that guarantees that no adventure can ever earn enough to pay the bills).
I can understand the purpose and something like this might work without the assumption regarding crew, long term, not making anything. To me, this is hard to roll play. I believe it doesn't even take into consideration how much trading the ship does. Some months you make 1 delivery, some ,months it could be 2, or maybe they went off adventuring for 3 weeks and never sold any cargo this month, hey, still roll for economic performance. This is a RPG. I can't see a character saying, 'no worries, I'll gladly join your ships crew even though I'll make no profit or pay because I know its just a plot device'. I'd do away with the details completely if they are not needed and just do something like, right off the top of my head

- Even player characters get a salary. This may get paid out monthly or at the end of the year. This can give a character a good reason to be on the ship, they are getting payed.
- For each offloading of cargo and passengers, profit and loss (after all expenses including salaries) are determined behind the scenes by the GM so that crew can have additional spending money or a reason to take a side job. When there is no agenda, use a calculation like (2d6 -5 + broker DM) x 10 x ship tonnage = profit or loss. You can tweak this to whatever you think works.
Suggestions:
- Replace 10 with world population to represent a higher demand for product based on population
- Replace ship tonnage with ship cargo space. Possibly add in something for the amount of passenger space.

NOTE: What, how can the bills get paid if there is a loss? For simplicity, losses are simply monies owed. They can be paid by ships funds or IOUs/credit that must be covered by the next profit.

EDIT: I deleted information I had posted about setting the number of offloadings of cargo and passengers needed per year to pay the mortgage and the ability for hard working traders to just do trade after trade nonstop to exceed this amount and make a profit and also what happens when you don't meet the # needed. I realized I was missing lots of calculations and as I added them, it just seamed too cumbersome unless you have an accountant as one of your players! The GM could just take these concepts and set amounts that suit their purposes.

EDIT #2: Got an idea for a simpler method for what I deleted but I don't plan on working on it and posting the results unless there are a few people interested.
 
Last edited:
That's what the 'Adventures' are for.
All Ty's System assumes is that the ship is a plot device to move the party between adventures rather than a money machine that eliminates the need for adventures (or an anchor that guarantees that no adventure can ever earn enough to pay the bills).

So make the ship an old rustbucket that drains away the cash as fast as the players can make it. When the players get a huge payoff for a freight cargo bounce the check. There are any number of interesting ways to drain away player cash for the creative Referee.
 
So make the ship an old rustbucket that drains away the cash as fast as the players can make it. When the players get a huge payoff for a freight cargo bounce the check. There are any number of interesting ways to drain away player cash for the creative Referee.
This is an approach my players would never accept. Their view of a good set-
ting is a "sandbox" where the events occur because of the inner logic of the
setting and the activities of characters, player and nonplayer, and never be-
cause the GM wants to arbitrarily introduce a deus (or satan) ex machina.
Therefore any trade system for our campaign would have to be balanced in
itself, without the need to introduce more or less plausible events to correct
its result.

As for the trade system proposed by Tbeard1999, it looks quite good to me,
but for our purposes it would be a bit too remote from the setting, because
the players expect brokers to have names and cargoes to be described, and
both to fit in well with the background.
However, I might well try to use the system in any campaign that is less tra-
de oriented than ours.
 
This sort of system would work pretty well in my campaign since I usually provide the players with some sort of ship by way of a patron to get them into the adventure track instead of making endless cargo runs and bookkeeping the adventure. Sort of a silent partnership arrangement that means the patron expects a return but often the return is information, new markets found, etc., that all lead to real adventures. The players have a modest expense account but it somehow is never quite enough to do more than cover the fuel bills.

So having a generic system that is better tuned towards streamlining the revenue stream without having to constantly handwave the details to make it work is a good thing.
 
I'm in the crowd that rejects it out of hand due to assumption #1.

I appreciate the methodology of GTFT (tho' I strongly quibble with both the execution and the specific values)... Big ships should be filling by having warehousing and agents on the ground to ensure they have a full load ready and waiting...

Individual worlds should have a trade flow based upon their relatioships to their neighbors, and the ships should be limited in total to some relationship of that flow; a 1000 Ton or 3000 Ton cargo scow should NOT be able to fill unless on a prepared and staffed route.
 
So make the ship an old rustbucket that drains away the cash as fast as the players can make it. When the players get a huge payoff for a freight cargo bounce the check. There are any number of interesting ways to drain away player cash for the creative Referee.

And if a Referee did those to me just to drain excess cash I had accumulated, it would piss me off. That's along the same lines as 'Grudge Monsters' in D&D...

The system that is at first presented fails due to a couple points.

A) It does not take into account in any way player skill levels.

B) The average should be a small profit, at the very minimum being able to pay crew salaries.

It just feels like railroading into whatever thing the GM wants the players to do rather than things deriving naturally from what the players want to do.
 
Aye Skyth, Jason's technique is too easy. You have to give the players the illusion that there is a way they can avoid losing all their beautiful cash.

Hmm, no one I play with will never fall for this one again but you can probably use the "treasure map" dodge. A few million credits to participate in a consortium looting some ancient ruins (abandoned military supply depot, sub light long-liner etc), of course the players can halve that (to whatever amount of money you want to drain from them) if they provide the ship and labour/guards. Spend a night of gaming exploring the ruins and even let them have their pick of the artifacts recovered. Whatever artifacts they pick most are completely useless (an ancient hairdryer) and one or two are marginally useful (a weapon marginally better than a stock one or a minor force shield which negates 2 hits in personal combat per week is good, a food machine is better). If you are in a generous mood you can give them something better but nothing which will greatly unballance the game. So you can use the doge again make sure you let them know (rolling dice to make it convincing) that one of the artifacts they didn't pick was something really good.

The trick is to convince the players they have a chance to win big. Sure it takes a whole play session to do it right, but at least they aren't spending hours rolling trade dice.



I have no problems with the system, it looks like it would do the job - provide a quick way to keep the players adventuring instead of rolling trade dice. Me, I like the flavor of the original system including it's favoritism towards small ships. If zooming around the galaxy rolling trade dice and amassing fortunes keeps the players happy and interested then it makes for easy campaigns, when they get tired of that then they can have adventures. Small ships I like, it is much better in my experience if the players main characters are the majority of the crew. Having NPCs or alt characters just to fill the crew slots on ships makes the ships feel less a part of the campaign.
 
I'm in the crowd that rejects it out of hand due to assumption #1.

I appreciate the methodology of GTFT (tho' I strongly quibble with both the execution and the specific values)... Big ships should be filling by having warehousing and agents on the ground to ensure they have a full load ready and waiting...

Individual worlds should have a trade flow based upon their relatioships to their neighbors, and the ships should be limited in total to some relationship of that flow; a 1000 Ton or 3000 Ton cargo scow should NOT be able to fill unless on a prepared and staffed route.

I (generally) fall into this category as well.
 
Last edited:
I'm in the crowd that rejects it out of hand due to assumption #1.

You did catch that assumption #1 is simply a general long-term factor reflected by the average roll in the later tables.

If the party gets a windfall (like salvaging a pirate's ship during an adventure) and pays off their ship in 10 years, then Step 2 would add +3 and generate higher monthly net profits for the crew to divide.

Even with bank payments and assumption 1, the crew will still get paid some months (above average roll), break even some months (average roll) and hide from creditors some months (below average roll).



[Personally, I have concerns about the lack of skill modifiers, buy it might just be a rule that is unsuited to a Merchant Prince type of campaign.]
 
Aye Skyth, Jason's technique is too easy. You have to give the players the illusion that there is a way they can avoid losing all their beautiful cash.
Hey, with players that trust your judgement it works just fine.
 
A generally nice idea.
More 'results oriented' and less 'fussy detail' oriented.

What about skills?
Is this intended for 'adventuring parties' more than a 'merchnat prince' type of character?

For example Joe has Admin-2, Trader-3 and Broker-1, and is always shaking the trees looking to make a deal.
Phil has lots of combat skills and Admin-0 so he can work 'security' and fill in as a 'cargo officer' in a pinch.
How would this system affect them differently?

PS. No FTL Comms I assume. :)
[It was just a Joke! ;)]

The system, since it uses 2d6, is highly sensitive to modifiers.

Adding a +1 to the roll will mean that the ship will average ~4.66 x base ROI in a year. So our free trader (ROI Cr15K) will make ~Cr70,000 profit. Adding a +2 to the roll will result in ~9.33xROI per year profit. So our free trader will make Cr140,000 profit in a year.

So you can't go crazy with the modifiers.

Note that the risky table is even more sensitive -- a +1 modifier will produce an average of 12XROI per year profit. So I'd ban all modifiers on the risky table.

Using the normal risk table with no modifiers, a typical ship will break even in a year. That means that any spending money that the PCs want will have to come from adventuring -- a Good Thing in my book.

However, they have actually increased their wealth -- a year of payments have been made and the equity in their ship increases a little. But this equity is very hard to tap. They have to sell their ship (or get a bank to make a loan, which is very, very hard since the new bank is behind the old bank).
 
I'm sorry, but if this assumption is true, I don't see any motivation for my character to not just get off the ship at the next stop and get a job that pays.

If they own the ship, sell it or at least sell their share in it.

You're missing a key point -- the players ARE increasing their wealth. They are building equity in their starship (though due to simplifications in depreciation, there may be years where this doesn't happen). But like many business owners, they are cash poor. If they want spending money, they'll need to take adventuring jobs.

For instance, a crew operating a Mcr100 Ship in Year 34 of its life will break even statistically on the chart.

However, at the start of the year, they owe MCr25 on a ship with a fair market value of MCr41. They have a net worth of MCr16. At the end of the year, they owe MCr21.3 and it's worth MCr38. Their net worth has increased to MCr16.7. So although they broke even on cash flow, they made an economic profit of Cr700,000. Not bad. But since that value is illiquid, they still have to take occasional adventures to get spare cash.

I'd add that the FMV numbers for the starship are easy to tinker with to give the right mix for a particular campaign. The numbers I used are the *minimum* a starship would need to be worth for a sane lender to finance it. So there's plenty of room for increase in FMV.

EDIT: I revised the numbers so that equity would increase consistently each year. So owners of the ship above would increase their equity from MCr33.04 to MCr33.66 -- an economic profit of Cr620,000.

And given that most versions of Traveller make it possible for PCs to muster out with multi-million credit starships, your complaint about PCs selling their ships is equally applicable to CT. (For instance, under any rational scenario, a merchant who musters out with a Free Trader while owing 40 payments has about 20% x MCr37 equity in the ship. If he sold the ship, he'd have ~MCr7.4 in the bank. With only 5% investment return, he'd make Cr370K per year -- enough to buy High Passages every 2 weeks and still have plenty of cash to play with. And don't get me started on the Corsair...
 
Last edited:
That's what the 'Adventures' are for.
All Ty's System assumes is that the ship is a plot device to move the party between adventures rather than a money machine that eliminates the need for adventures (or an anchor that guarantees that no adventure can ever earn enough to pay the bills).

Exactly. The existing Traveller trade system is not only seriously flawed logically, but (far worse) it incentivizes boring trade table rolls in lieu of adventuring.
 
So make the ship an old rustbucket that drains away the cash as fast as the players can make it. When the players get a huge payoff for a freight cargo bounce the check. There are any number of interesting ways to drain away player cash for the creative Referee.

Yeah, and I really resent having to do that. As do my players.

If you actually read the system I posted, you'll see that on average, the crew breaks even each year. And depending on the value of their ship, they may well increase their net worth.

But the key distinction is that they must *adventure* to make serious cash. Running the ship keeps them alive, pays the bills and provides a modest retirement nest egg (sell the ship; run it more profitably once the bank is paid off in 40 years).

But *adventures*, rather than painfully tedious table rolling, produces the money.

Sorry, I won't apologize for that.
 
Back
Top