Rob's Traveller Regula Fidei

[Hyphen]

Technically, as derivative works, jointly owned by Marc and Roger.. Neither can do anything with them without the other's permission.

My understanding is a little different. Roger's position on 01/11/1996 was as follows:

"MARC MILLER HAS DGP'S PERMISSION to use background data (UWP lists, planet names, sector maps, etc.) from DGP's Traveller works in any way that he sees fit in printed Traveller 4 publications!

In addition, Marc Miller has been given a free hand to dip into DGP's Traveller archives for inspiration in developing background material for his new incarnation of the Traveller role-playing game. This way, he can keep Traveller 4 consistent with what has come before!!!

The races (the Geonee, the Brinn, etc.), the places (Vland, Shudusham, Capital), and the things (robots, equipment, etc.) which you loved from DGP's works still exist in the overall Traveller milieu. I don't believe Marc has any intention of changing this (he's DGP's number one fan!)."​

One point to note: this permission only extends to Marc.

http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/dgp_faq.htm

Wil, does this reflect your understanding, or has something changed?

 

[aramis]

I have never had a problem with that.

*** What was your intention in writing that? ***

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

We need to actually get Marc convinced that our canon view is right and Don's was problematic.

 

[aramis]

My understanding is a little different. Roger's position on 01/11/1996 was as follows:

"MARC MILLER HAS DGP'S PERMISSION to use background data (UWP lists, planet names, sector maps, etc.) from DGP's Traveller works in any way that he sees fit in printed Traveller 4 publications!

In addition, Marc Miller has been given a free hand to dip into DGP's Traveller archives for inspiration in developing background material for his new incarnation of the Traveller role-playing game. This way, he can keep Traveller 4 consistent with what has come before!!!

The races (the Geonee, the Brinn, etc.), the places (Vland, Shudusham, Capital), and the things (robots, equipment, etc.) which you loved from DGP's works still exist in the overall Traveller milieu. I don't believe Marc has any intention of changing this (he's DGP's number one fan!)."​

One point to note: this permission only extends to Marc.

http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/dgp_faq.htm

Wil, does this reflect your understanding, or has something changed?

US Copyright law explicitly makes derivative works jointly owned.

The quote you gave is the permission to continue to use the material in a limited way. But it isn't enough to actually allow reprint.
Roger needs to either give Marc permission to put it on DTRPG, or sell it at a reasonable price, because legally, he can't do ANYTHING AT ALL with it without Marc's explicit permission.

Marc is still waiting on that permission. Once he gets it, he's ready to put materials up.

 

[mike wightman]

We need to actually get Marc convinced that our canon view is right and Don's was problematic.

Have you ever considered that your canon view is not correct?
You clashed with Hans, you clash with Bill and lets face it we don't see eye to eye all the time either :devil: [joke]

You need someone in the 'inner circle' who is going to push Marc to get stuff done, be constructively critical, and actually know previous canon without looking it up on a disc. Better yet get rid of pre-conceptions and just go with the Galaxiad and previous canon be damned.
You should take this conversation thread to the admin area or PM, we proles are not worthy to see such lofty thoughts.

Rob has his head screwed on, get him to do it

 

[Hyphen]

The quote you gave is the permission to continue to use the material in a limited way. But it isn't enough to actually allow reprint.

I've just realised my reply was in totally the wrong context; it was about Marc's general use of the DGP material.

Your reply (correctly) talked about entire reprints, which is what Ulsyus was actually asking about.

Doh! Thanks for answering both of our queries. ;-)

 

[aramis]

I've just realised my reply was in totally the wrong context; it was about Marc's general use of the DGP material.

Your reply (correctly) talked about entire reprints, which is what Ulsyus was actually asking about.

Doh! Thanks for answering both of our queries. ;-)

No Problem.

I know Marc is ready to go whenever Roger gives the green light. Don had been working on winning Roger over.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Maksim, it is incumbent upon us "inner circle" types to advise Marc as best we can.

Rob, I ask you and other "inner circle" types, in all seriousness, how is your flow of canon analysis varies from Don's? Are there any things that you did not agree with Don on? Finally, how does it vary from Marc's statements concerning canon from 2016's Gamercon? I was sufficiently impressed by his view, I quoted him in my signature.

Having listened to recording the panel he spoke at, it seems he has the view that once something is introduced and "approved" by him, going forward he is reluctant to remove it. As I said over the years, it seemed to me like improv theater. Once something is introduced by the actor, the other actors have pretend it is there too.

 

[Garnfellow]

I wrote somewhere that Marc Miller is like the Walt Whitman of gaming. His approach to canon is expansive, permissive, and all-encompassing. It's one of the great, great strengths of Traveller.

Marc understands that the OTU is enormous, contradictory, and complicated . . . just like our own universe. He might personally dislike the Virus, but he finds it a worthwhile challenge to incorporate into canon.

I get VERY concerned when I read people advocating for tossing entire Traveller lines because they personally disagree with a couple of books within that line or some books contradict earlier canon.

Every single edition of Traveller has produced canon that has been intentionally (and unintentionally) invalidated or overwritten. Every single author who has written anything substantial for the setting has had material overwritten. Marc himself has decanonized portions of his own work. If a better idea comes along, Traveller has always been willing to incorporate it.

Face it: Marc's vision of the OTU is bigger and better than yours. It's bigger and better than mine. He's not a George Lucas who needs to be "saved" from himself. Don might not have personally agreed, but he understood and supported Marc's expansive approach to canon.

When I read Agents of the Imperium the OTU seemed far shaggier and more interesting than it often appears in game books. More and weirder aliens were integrated into the Imperium than I would have guessed. Everyday technology with significant cultural implications was more pervasive than I would have guessed.

I sometimes think that if GURPS Traveller had produced a book that contained the threeps or wafer tech it would have been pilloried here for violating canon, simply because it showed us something in the OTU that we simply hadn't seen before. "Wah, it's like the Mos Eisley cantina!" "Wah, they're trying to cram trendy cyberpunk in my Traveller!" Heck, people still grouse about the "Pulververse" aliens when in fact any of them would have worked just fine in AotI.

Canon isn't, and shouldn't be, limited to just the stuff I like or the way I have always handled things in my own games -- as invested as I am in my own little idiosyncratic readings. If I determined canon, there would be no Rebellion, no Virus. There wouldn't be Grandfather, K'kree (seriously), and maybe not Vargr. And that would be a HUGE mistake.

The best regula fidei for Traveller is and has always been "canon is whatever Marc says it is." And fortunately for all of us, Marc's vision tends to be far bigger and more interesting than our own.

We should all try to be more like Marc when thinking of canon.

 

[Condottiere]

Every time design rules change, ships and vehicles change in order to optimize their performance.

Unless the tail wags the dog, and design rules are reverse engineered to create specific outcomes.

 

[Major B]

The best regula fidei for Traveller is and has always been "canon is whatever Marc says it is." And fortunately for all of us, Marc's vision tends to be far bigger and more interesting than our own.

We should all try to be more like Marc when thinking of canon.

Thanks Garnfellow. I think that was very well stated.

Mike

 

[robject]

I think the solution is that someone wins the lottery, then buys the DGP rights for a few tens of thousands of dollars. They would then have to re-establish a licence with Marc to republish the material.

Working on that. Win the lottery. That's also my retirement plan, by the way.

Sans more information, I had always assumed that Don was negotiating with Roger towards the latter option. I have no idea how far the negotiations had proceeded.

I seem to recall they were on speaking terms, but that wasn't negotiation.

 

[aramis]

Rob, I ask you and other "inner circle" types, in all seriousness, how is your flow of canon analysis varies from Don's? Are there any things that you did not agree with Don on? Finally, how does it vary from Marc's statements concerning canon from 2016's Gamercon? I was sufficiently impressed by his view, I quoted him in my signature.

Having listened to recording the panel he spoke at, it seems he has the view that once something is introduced and "approved" by him, going forward he is reluctant to remove it. As I said over the years, it seemed to me like improv theater. Once something is introduced by the actor, the other actors have pretend it is there too.

Mine: What Marc says is canon is canon. Unless there's good reason, older sources trump newer; Sources Marc worked on trump sources he didn't, and those trump non-authoritative sources.

Don's: what Marc says is canon is canon. When in conflict, always pick the newest source. GT is canon until the year of the assassination.

 

[robject]

I've gotta start with this:

Every time design rules change, ships and vehicles change in order to optimize their performance.

Unless the tail wags the dog, and design rules are reverse engineered to create specific outcomes.

Frankly, most of us from time to time get confused as to which part is the dog and which part is the tail.

You need someone in the 'inner circle' who is going to
1 * push Marc to get stuff done,
2 * be constructively critical, and
3 * actually know previous canon without looking it up on a disc.
4 * Better yet get rid of pre-conceptions and just go with the Galaxiad and previous canon be damned.
5 * You should take this conversation thread to the admin area or PM, we proles are not worthy to see such lofty thoughts.

Rob has his head screwed on, get him to do it

Thanks for your kind words. Let me add to that:

(1) can't be done
(2) ABSOLUTELY MUST BE DONE and MARC LIKES THIS A LOT
(3) that's not me
(4) won't quite happen for the reasons mentioned by Nathan in the next quote.
(5) I like hearing your opinions, even when I don't like them

Having listened to recording the panel he spoke at, it seems he has the view that once something is introduced and "approved" by him, going forward he is reluctant to remove it. As I said over the years, it seemed to me like improv theater. Once something is introduced by the actor, the other actors have pretend it is there too.

Rob, I ask you and other "inner circle" types, in all seriousness, how is your flow of canon analysis varies from Don's? Are there any things that you did not agree with Don on? Finally, how does it vary from Marc's statements concerning canon from 2016's Gamercon? I was sufficiently impressed by his view, I quoted him in my signature.

OH heck yeah, there are things Don and I completely lock(ed) horns on.

I think Jim Kundert is the most diplomatic man I know, who keeps his opinions in check while contributing to discussions and adding clarity and depth to concepts in an organic way. The rest of us seem like squabbling children in comparison.

I try to subsume my opinions and try to use Marc's thoughts out of the box, but I can't always do that. While I dislike some things, I can't criticize them until I understand them. That's when Marc is receptive. It's Chesterton's Fence, sort of.

 

[aramis]

It's worth noting that NONE of the inner circle have the kind of encyclopaedic knowledge of Mike's point 3 - there's simply too much.

The CD's Don, Myself, Robject, and others in Marc's canon discussions reference include:

CT
JTAS
MT
TNE
T4
T20
Apocrypha 1, 2, 3
T5
GT
GTJTAS

Right there, you're talking 300+ files.

Plus MGT sources.
Plus my own DGP stuff.

I wind up searching sources I never used in play, because I only ever got them last year as a winter holiday gift from Marc on thumb drive.

My FLGSes never really stocked Paranoia Press, for example.

 

[robject]

It's worth noting that NONE of the inner circle have the kind of encyclopaedic knowledge of Mike's point 3 - there's simply too much.

Yup. And TNE (for example) I'm barely familiar with aside from Survival Margin and FFS1. Searching THAT for canon-potential material is very difficult for me. But others know that material inside and out. Who would you trust more?

You might add Marc to that list as well. I bet he doesn't know where everything is.

As for the Inner Circle... it's fuzzy like canon. Who's in? Who's out? Marc has a list, but the borders seem fuzzy to me. Actually the list has varied over the last decade. The term, therefore, is hard to pin down, even though Marc defined the concept.

Kind of like canon.

Hmmmmm.

 

[aramis]

Yup. And TNE (for example) I'm barely familiar with aside from Survival Margin and FFS1. Searching THAT for canon-potential material is very difficult for me. But others know that material inside and out. Who would you trust more?

You might add Marc to that list as well. I bet he doesn't know where everything is.

As for the Inner Circle... it's fuzzy like canon. Who's in? Who's out? Marc has a list, but the borders seem fuzzy to me. Actually the list has varied over the last decade. The term, therefore, is hard to pin down, even though Marc defined the concept.

Kind of like canon.

Hmmmmm.

They only way I knew I was on it is I was sent emails saying I was in in...

 

[pendragonman]

They only way I knew I was on it is I was sent emails saying I was in in...

Illuminati?

 

[aramis]

Illuminati?

Travelluminati

 

[pendragonman]

Travelluminati

Nice. :rofl:

 

[Reban]

Travelluminati

FFE's next limited edition t-shirt