Rob's Traveller Regula Fidei

[Ulsyus]

Canon: Published material on Charted Space binding for future publishers of Traveller material.

How do we gauge canonicity? What's the metric? When I say "yeah, that seems right", what is going through my brain? How do I know I'm not insane?

In an environment that requires compliance there's often a regulatory mechanism. Eg: pharmaceutical treatments require approval from a government agency that has decided on the metrics of what's safe and how that's shown.

Does canon exist as a binary measurement, or is there a scale that runs from Not to Gosh indicating canonness? If that's to be decided, it'd be by The Authority, or could be by an empowered group empaneled for employment deciding on emcanonment.

The other side of the coin is that it's all just out there, in a cloud to be drawn from by individual libertarianistic referees drawing what they need and want so as to order and define YTU.

Though, I think the latter option would make it rather difficult to continue developing supplements in the future, which is were we should strive to be with this game both literally and within it.

Canon: EXAMPLE. The MegaTraveller Referee's Companion, specifically the pages on "aliens". Is is canon? Is it binding?

Where do you fall on the two options above? If the latter, then you decide. If the former, then who makes the actual decision?

[/QUOTE]Chronology. It's a 30-year-old resource. Mongoose Traveller is the latest source on sophonts. By definition, Mongoose is canon, unless it's wrong (and that's where discernment is needed to figure out what THAT means).[/QUOTE]

Were those guys licensed to write material about Traveller for commercial purposes, or to write binding history and sophontological texts?

 

[robject]

Where do you fall on the two options above? If the latter, then you decide. If the former, then who makes the actual decision?

Things either are, or aren't, setting for publishers. They can't be both, as if setting depended on each publisher.

Who decides? At the root, it's all Marc. And he does delegate in specific instances to specific people.

I *think* the guiding principle is that most setting things available from FFE are canonical. However, it's all scattered across many documents. It's not all in one place... not even a collection of references ordered by topic... and that that is a bad thing.

In that MegaTraveller often consolidated CT material, I think it could be quite useful as a canon resource. Granted, it's a summary.

Were those guys [Mongoose] licensed to write material about Traveller for commercial purposes, or to write binding history and sophontological texts?

We did our level best, excuse me DO our level best to vet all material going through Mongoose for egregious problems. We don't make them rewrite things for the sake of being a different ruleset (e.g. "you did character generation wrong!"), but when they say Aslan eat humans, then there's a problem. So unless there's something specifically "wrong", their stuff is good.

Now whether or not it's binding...? Well tell me if the events that took place around Drinax are canonical? If so, then a publisher ought not overwrite the history there.

 

[robject]

Don's timeline was almost an index into the setting by date.

It would be nice to have a topical index which simply contained references.

 

[khadaji2002]

Don's timeline was almost an index into the setting by date.

It would be nice to have a topical index which simply contained references.

Agreed. I have dabbled in Traveller for the better part of thirty years (I found TNE first, then went back to CT and MT for ideas) and I still have some difficulties sorting out what is which as far as the 'official' timeline goes. I would love to have a resource that ties as much of the canonical information as possible into one document. My guess is that this would eat a lot of time and effort. That time and effort has to come from someone. Then you need Marc or his officially designated agent to go through the new document and approve each item. Given that many of us lack the time and/or knowledge for such a project I have a hard time believing I'll see it in my lifetime.

 

[robject]

I'm starting a new thread for that. (Why not?)

 

[aramis]

Canon: Published material on Charted Space binding for future publishers of Traveller material.

How do we gauge canonicity? What's the metric? When I say "yeah, that seems right", what is going through my brain? How do I know I'm not insane?

EXAMPLE. The MegaTraveller Referee's Companion, specifically the pages on "aliens". Is is canon? Is it binding?

Chronology. It's a 30-year-old resource. Mongoose Traveller is the latest source on sophonts. By definition, Mongoose is canon, unless it's wrong (and that's where discernment is needed to figure out what THAT means).

The most simple method is to say "Mongoose is only canon when it matches other editions" because no due dilligence seems to have been taken by anyone at Mongoose since about 2008... Excepting Don. Who would occasionally complain about how totally unconcerned with canon the entire company was. (which, I suspect, may be part of the reason that Gareth jumped ship over to Cubicle 7... where canon for their IPs is actually considered valuable. He's now working on supplements for The One Ring, and they are great about canon.)

Part of the problem with Traveller's canon is that a lot of material was written for later editions that ignored, unintentionall overwrote, or intentionally countered prior material, or even more often, established new details incompatible with the common shared views of the fanbase prior.

GT has a universe that looks nothing at all like the OTU as described in the CT materials. 100KTd megafreighters making multi-jump runs; a tiny world getting 1KTd a day of traffic simply because it's right next door to Regina.

Plus, Marc's own words on the TML were that GT was to be "Non authoritative"... which is a near-synonym for non-canonical. (It has connotations of being able to use canon but not set canon.) It's later been drafted into canon, but I'll note the M1900 draft seems to ignore the hell out of it (and thankfully so). GN:Nobles adds a half-dozen new titles which are neither needed, nor used anywhere else in canon prior, but some of which are (much to the confusment of many) included in T5. I can see Banerette (Hereditary knight) and Baronette (archdually created baron), but ONLY in the 3I.

If we're looking at "What is Canon"... we need to look at pruning the excessive details of GURPS and the wacky BS that found its way into MGT. And the easiest metric is, "Ignore them both entirely"...

We also need to purge the 3I-isms if T5 is to be M1900 based (which is implied in the M1900 and Players Drafts in my Dropbox - from Marc, at that.) Which means Baronet vs Baron, Viscount vs Marquis, etc need to go the way of the Dodo. Marine Tradition for Cutlass probably should, too. (Note that the USMC "NCO Cutlass" is actually NOT a cutlass, but a shamsheer/shamshir...)

 

[robject]

Plus, Marc's own words on the TML were that GT was to be "Non authoritative"... which is a near-synonym for non-canonical. [...]

If we're looking at "What is Canon"... we need to look at pruning the excessive details of GURPS and the wacky BS that found its way into MGT. And the easiest metric is, "Ignore them both entirely"...

Non-canon is exactly non-authoritative in my book. Not binding on publishers. That's the only definition that makes sense to me.

 

[Ulsyus]

Who decides? At the root, it's all Marc. And he does delegate in specific instances to specific people.

That's neat and straightforward, thanks.

...but when they say Aslan eat humans, then there's a problem. So unless there's something specifically "wrong", their stuff is good.

I did wonder about that. That sort of behaviour would get a race pretty wary of a neighbour and be the sort of thing that could look at uniting states. It's reminiscent of the Azuriach in another game, and all they did was unite their foes.

Non-canon is exactly non-authoritative in my book. Not binding on publishers. That's the only definition that makes sense to me.

Thanks for the clarification, and the idea of pulling it all together is a good one. That's a job for the Wiki isn't it, or is it going to be in another medium?

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

The most simple method is to say "Mongoose is only canon when it matches other editions" because no due dilligence seems to have been taken by anyone at Mongoose since about 2008... Excepting Don. Who would occasionally complain about how totally unconcerned with canon the entire company was. (which, I suspect, may be part of the reason that Gareth jumped ship over to Cubicle 7... where canon for their IPs is actually considered valuable. He's now working on supplements for The One Ring, and they are great about canon.)

Part of the problem with Traveller's canon is that a lot of material was written for later editions that ignored, unintentionall overwrote, or intentionally countered prior material, or even more often, established new details incompatible with the common shared views of the fanbase prior.

GT has a universe that looks nothing at all like the OTU as described in the CT materials. 100KTd megafreighters making multi-jump runs; a tiny world getting 1KTd a day of traffic simply because it's right next door to Regina.

Plus, Marc's own words on the TML were that GT was to be "Non authoritative"... which is a near-synonym for non-canonical. (It has connotations of being able to use canon but not set canon.) It's later been drafted into canon, but I'll note the M1900 draft seems to ignore the hell out of it (and thankfully so). GN:Nobles adds a half-dozen new titles which are neither needed, nor used anywhere else in canon prior, but some of which are (much to the confusment of many) included in T5. I can see Banerette (Hereditary knight) and Baronette (archdually created baron), but ONLY in the 3I.

If we're looking at "What is Canon"... we need to look at pruning the excessive details of GURPS and the wacky BS that found its way into MGT. And the easiest metric is, "Ignore them both entirely"...

We also need to purge the 3I-isms if T5 is to be M1900 based (which is implied in the M1900 and Players Drafts in my Dropbox - from Marc, at that.) Which means Baronet vs Baron, Viscount vs Marquis, etc need to go the way of the Dodo. Marine Tradition for Cutlass probably should, too. (Note that the USMC "NCO Cutlass" is actually NOT a cutlass, but a shamsheer/shamshir...)

Well said, Aramis.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[aramis]

Non-canon is exactly non-authoritative in my book. Not binding on publishers. That's the only definition that makes sense to me.

Unfortunately, Don did not agree.

 

[coliver988]

...
Thanks for the clarification, and the idea of pulling it all together is a good one. That's a job for the Wiki isn't it, or is it going to be in another medium?

I would think the Wiki. Not sure how difficult it would be to be able to add Canon/non-canon flags at the page level (so that there may be duplicate pages), or break down entries into multiple canon/non-canon on the same page.

Or perhaps mark the source as canon/non-canon.

But after 40 years of publications, constructing yet another Imperial Library (for that's what this really is, Encyclopedia Imperia) the Wiki seems the most flexible, and as mentioned, already has a lot of the tooling already in place.

Just my Cr.02 worth.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Unfortunately, Don did not agree.

Don had a lot of his own ideas that became regulatory. Many of the old grognards were that way. Rancke and Greg both had distinct ideas. I hope that moving forward we can preserve what is good from the past and move beyond what wasn't. RIP to our fallen comrades.

I hope that going forward, FFE will consent to measures that will universally apply to all contributors, no matter who they are or what they write.

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

I would think the Wiki. Not sure how difficult it would be to be able to add Canon/non-canon flags at the page level (so that there may be duplicate pages), or break down entries into multiple canon/non-canon on the same page.

Yes.

The complication is that the wiki has a mix of canon and non-canon entries and Don's hermeneutic is the only approved dip stick.

There is new movement, but it may take time.

Meanwhile, so many of the old grognards each feel that their work and knowledge is the only canon indicator. I've seen them mark articles as non-canon that are verbatim out of published materials. I just move on. I leave them a note to chat and then patiently wait for them to want to talk as they fret.

Meanwhile, we at the wiki slowly update and add citations to various articles as the system is slowly updated. I speak with Marc periodically and get rulings. What is not ruled on is by default not canon.

Sometimes Marc shares with others and that knowledge is not disseminated. That can be frustrating for those chronicling Traveller. But, it is what it is. We just do the best we can and move forward.

Or perhaps mark the source as canon/non-canon.

Items are being marked canon, non-canon, and with both tags where it is mixed. With over 10k articles, not every article has been updated, but many to most are.

But after 40 years of publications, constructing yet another Imperial Library (for that's what this really is, Encyclopedia Imperia) the Wiki seems the most flexible, and as mentioned, already has a lot of the tooling already in place.

Just my Cr.02 worth.

I quite agree and that is why I have invested chunks of my free time over the past three to four years building it out and progressively improving it.

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[aramis]

Yes.

The complication is that the wiki has a mix of canon and non-canon entries and Don's hermeneutic is the only approved dip stick.

There is new movement, but it may take time.

Maksim, it is incumbent upon us "inner circle" types to advise Marc as best we can.

 

[Blue Ghost]

It's not me; it's the situation that keeps the material legally out of peoples' hands. Until that situation changes, it's off-limits.

Did I not see MT stuff for sale at DrivethruRPG? It looks like it's a resolved situation.

 

[mike wightman]

GDW copyright MegaTraveller stuff has been available on drivethru since MWM put it there, the issue is the DGP stuff like the Starship Operator's Manual, Worldbuilder's Handbook, Vilani and Vargr, Solomani and Aslan which are all owned by Mr Sanger.

 

[aramis]

GDW copyright MegaTraveller stuff has been available on drivethru since MWM put it there[...]

And Marc did so around the turn of the century.

[T]he issue is the DGP stuff like the Starship Operator's Manual, Worldbuilder's Handbook, Vilani and Vargr, Solomani and Aslan which are all owned by Mr Sanger.

Technically, as derivative works, jointly owned by Marc and Roger.. Neither can do anything with them without the other's permission.

 

[Ulsyus]

Technically, as derivative works, jointly owned by Marc and Roger.. Neither can do anything with them without the other's permission.

So is there no dialogue about the books? Are they likely to languish in unrepublished limbo for the forseeable future, or is there a solution to this issue?

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

Maksim, it is incumbent upon us "inner circle" types to advise Marc as best we can.

I have never had a problem with that.

*** What was your intention in writing that? ***

Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Hyphen]

So is there no dialogue about the books? Are they likely to languish in unrepublished limbo for the forseeable future, or is there a solution to this issue?

I think the solution is that someone wins the lottery, then buys the DGP rights for a few tens of thousands of dollars. They would then have to re-establish a licence with Marc to republish the material.

Or else stumps up enough cash to give to both Roger (as DGP owner) and Marc (As Traveller owner) to make the books available at FFE & Drivethru as per the rest of the Traveller materials. (And then does all the legwork themselves, to scan them, clean them up, and get them into a publishable form.) Presumably both Roger and Marc would then go on to receive appropriate percentages of the profits (whatever is negotiated).

Sans more information, I had always assumed that Don was negotiating with Roger towards the latter option. I have no idea how far the negotiations had proceeded.