Roger Sanger's (DGP's) Copyright Policies

[Vladika]

I've read quite a bit about this DGP situation and all I am is more confused.

Here's Roger Sanger's copyright release to Marc.

http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/dgp_faq.htm

From someone "In the know" What is the real issue?

 

[tjoneslo]

From someone "In the know" What is the real issue?

The issue is Copyright vs. Trademark. Roger owns the copyright on the DGP's material. Meaning anyone else needs Roger's permission to publish any part of the material (including Marc). Marc owns the Trademark on Traveller. Meaning anyone else needs Marc's permission to publish anything with the Traveller name on it, or with any number of Traveller specific references.

Thus far Marc and Roger have been unable to agree to terms which allow the publication of the DGP material. The note you referenced is as far as they've gotten.

 

[robject]

And, from reading Joe Fugate's posts from back in 2004, it seems that copyright protects expression, rather than concept -- although I could be wrong. So being free to "[FONT=ARIAL, SANS-SERIF]dip into DGP's Traveller archives for inspiration in developing background material[/FONT]" was never actually in danger. However, specifically extending that to UWP and sector data does seem like it could have been a grey area. Is a particular UWP an expression/creation of DGP, or an expression of Traveller, or both at the same time?

 

[Vladika]

The note you referenced is as far as they've gotten.

Do you know if they are still trying to work it out? Seems that if Marc can't buy it from Sanger, then he will certainly de-canonize the DGP material. Should that happen, Sanger owns nothing of any value at all.

I guess the next question would be, does Sanger have a continuing right to use the Traveller trademark on the CURRENT DGP material, or has that expired? If so, he sits on nothing of value (as far as being able to sell it commercially.)

Does anyone know just what Sanger wants for it? Did Joe Fugate ever say what he actually sold it for?

For a "Fan" who bought it to preserve it, Sanger sure has some strange ideas on essentially killing it off forever.

Marc appears to be in the catbird seat though. Either way, he "wins" if you can call it that. He either becomes free to rejuvenate the DGP works, or free up OTC "real estate" for redevelopment.

I know this are a lot of questions, but, I'm seriously interested in the outcome.

 

[Vladika]

And, from reading Joe Fugate's posts from back in 2004, it seems that copyright protects expression, rather than concept -- although I could be wrong. So being free to "[FONT=ARIAL, SANS-SERIF]dip into DGP's Traveller archives for inspiration in developing background material[/FONT]" was never actually in danger. However, specifically extending that to UWP and sector data does seem like it could have been a grey area. Is a particular UWP an expression/creation of DGP, or an expression of Traveller, or both at the same time?

Hmmmm it would seem that Sanger's real intent would be to hold Marc up for a small fortune. That either by selling it outright, or, worse, intering into litigation should Marc actually do anything with DGP material, however the "release" is worded. What a :CoW:

 

[atpollard]

Hmmmm it would seem that Sanger's real intent would be to hold Marc up for a small fortune. That either by selling it outright, or, worse, entering into litigation should Marc actually do anything with DGP material, however the "release" is worded. What a :CoW:

From what I read, the truth is far less sinister and more sad:
Mr. Sanger bought the rights to DGP material to financially help out the original owner during a time of personal crisis.
Mr. Sanger believed the work was worth more than anyone either could or would pay, so none of it was republished.
Mr. Sander is reported to have eventually concluded that the DGP property, while good, is commercially nonviable.

So, like I said, the story is more sad than sinister.

 

[savage]

Check the DGP products poll I did a few months back. DonM did a detailed "this is what happened" regarding the relationship between Marc and DGP copyright.
http://sy.pe/Nqcre

I'd summarize by saying that we probably won't see a reprint. Sanders tied the rights to movie rights.

T5 is clearly changing data in the UWP on traveller map.

Fan based fiction has always been accepted. For example, MTU relies heavily on DGP and I created Brinn starships ( 12 years ago) and no one ever dropped me a cease order.

 

[Blue Ghost]

The man's an opportunist. He did not author it. It's too bad he wiggled and wormed his way into possession of it.

I say let it burn and forget about him.

 

[Vladika]

The man's an opportunist. He did not author it. It's too bad he wiggled and wormed his way into possession of it.

I say let it burn and forget about him.

That seems like what will happen. The longer he waits, the less value it has. That's what I can't understand.

Unless he's the one selling on eBay?

 

[Blue Ghost]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't even know why we're discussing it. There is ostensibly better material that is edited, works with Classic Traveller, and now T5, and is using all of the good bits of CT and MT combined.

Film rights revert to the author of the material unless it was contracted work.

 

[aramis]

That seems like what will happen. The longer he waits, the less value it has. That's what I can't understand.

Unless he's the one selling on eBay?

If he reprints, he has to get a license from Marc...

See, the copyrights are not clear, but derivative work copyrights. Without Marc's permission, Roger cannot reprint.

Without Roger's permission, no one can reprint the DGP stuff - for another 7 years or so. (At that point, Joe can recover the copyright under US law.)

There has supposedly been some progress - Marc and Roger are apparently still talking. DonM knows more about it than I.

 

[robject]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't even know why we're discussing it.

DGP put out useful material that filled important niches in Traveller. Some of that material is still useful. It all seems nicely done, and captures the spirit of Classic and Mega-Traveller.

In short, there are concepts that DGP published that still have value. There are two ways to publish that data: thru actual DGP material via Roger and by way of FFE (difficult), or authoring something that uses it in concept but is an original work (also difficult).

When we bring up DGP, we are thinking about its value to us today, and wondering what can fill the gap left by its (legal) absence.

 

[Blue Ghost]

DGP put out useful material that filled important niches in Traveller. Some of that material is still useful. It all seems nicely done, and captures the spirit of Classic and Mega-Traveller.

In short, there are concepts that DGP published that still have value. There are two ways to publish that data: thru actual DGP material via Roger and by way of FFE (difficult), or authoring something that uses it in concept but is an original work (also difficult).

When we bring up DGP, we are thinking about its value to us today, and wondering what can fill the gap left by its (legal) absence.

rob, no offense, but look, I was there like you and a lot of others when it first hit the shelves. I bought lots of it, then sold most of it to some fat lady in San Francisco who owned a game shop because I didn't have time for it.

To me the only impressive thing were the graphics. As interesting as the Vilani-Vargr supp was, it was pretty dry, and the Vargr extents map wasn't even expanded on. Ergo some of it was pretty, but .... well, it's kind of a closed chapter.

Dang, someone else come up with a 101 Vehicle guide. Call it ... crap, what now.... the 1001 Transportation Guide... hire dietrick to do some work, and throw some stats next to the pretty pics.

Stop waiting for this dude.

 

[Vargas]

Check the DGP products poll I did a few months back. DonM did a detailed "this is what happened" regarding the relationship between Marc and DGP copyright.
http://sy.pe/Nqcre

This same topic was hashed through just a few months ago. (See the link above).

 

[robject]

rob, no offense, but look, I was there like you and a lot of others when it first hit the shelves. I bought lots of it, then sold most of it to some fat lady in San Francisco who owned a game shop because I didn't have time for it.

Point taken and understood. I, too, sold all of my DGP stuff eventually. I don't think I have any of it left. Not even Knightfall (and I had two copies).

As interesting as the Vilani-Vargr supp was, it was pretty dry [...]

Dang, someone else come up with a 101 Vehicle guide. Call it ... crap, what now.... the 1001 Transportation Guide... hire dietrick to do some work, and throw some stats next to the pretty pics.

Stop waiting for this dude.

That's kind of where I'm at with it, as well. I think Traveller5's tools make this sort of thing possible for fanboys like me (and yes, I understand that there is errata to deal with).

 

[Vladika]

So, it appears my point is made: Roger Sanger sits on nothing of value.

 

[savage]

Point taken and understood. I, too, sold all of my DGP stuff eventually. I don't think I have any of it left. Not even Knightfall (and I had two copies).

That's kind of where I'm at with it, as well. I think Traveller5's tools make this sort of thing possible for fanboys like me (and yes, I understand that there is errata to deal with).

The treasures are the story lines more than the tools. I think of a product every 22 days, GDW took a beating on quality. DGP was in a similar boat trying to work on AI and GDW material. In many ways DGP was ahead of its time.

We hashed through all of this.

 

[robject]

The treasures are the story lines more than the tools.[...]

We hashed through all of this.

I haven't, but I think I know what you mean. At the end of the day, what matters to me is the material I can use in my games; and to me, story lines to me means adventure hooks.

 

[Supplement Four]

I still think, as a whole, that DGP put out the best Traveller material than any other publisher, including GDW. Sure, not every piece that put out is awesome (and, for me, the stuff they worked on under the GDW banner is their weakest output), but I'm talking as a whole. And, this is not to say that other publishers, including GDW, didn't put out some good stuff. But back in the day, if I saw the DGP logo on a Traveller item, I bought it on the spot, no questions asked. And most of the time, I never regretted that decision.

 

[GypsyComet]

rob, no offense, but look, I was there like you and a lot of others when it first hit the shelves. I bought lots of it, then sold most of it to some fat lady in San Francisco who owned a game shop because I didn't have time for it.

She opened the store in '92, by the way, and is still there.