Except for a table or two.
Roger Sanger's (DGP's) Copyright Policies
- Thread starter Vladika
- Start date
Except for a table or two.
My favorite temperature table...
It's out of a public domain science textbook, and I've heard a legend that is the reason that specific table didn't appear in WBH...
TEMPERATURE EFFECTS
2300°C Upper limit for solid planets (planet vaporized).
1535°C Melting point of iron.
327°C Melting point of lead.
100°C Water boils.
50°C Upper limit of human habitability.
37°C Physical strain on human body.
30°C Upper limit of human comfort.
25°C Upper limit of optimum human “room temperature”
18°C Lower limit of optimum human “room temperature”
15°C Base Mean Surface Temperature for Terra.
6°C Minimum for crop growing season on most worlds.
0°C Lower limit of human comfort.
-5°C Crop “killing frost” temperature on most worlds.
-20°C Lower limit of human habitability.
-36°C Hardy plants killed on most worlds.
-78°C Carbon dioxide solidifies to form dry ice.
-183°C Liquid oxygen boils.
-196°C Liquid nitrogen boils.
-273°C Absolute Zero.
It's out of a public domain science textbook, and I've heard a legend that is the reason that specific table didn't appear in WBH...
TEMPERATURE EFFECTS
2300°C Upper limit for solid planets (planet vaporized).
1535°C Melting point of iron.
327°C Melting point of lead.
100°C Water boils.
50°C Upper limit of human habitability.
37°C Physical strain on human body.
30°C Upper limit of human comfort.
25°C Upper limit of optimum human “room temperature”
18°C Lower limit of optimum human “room temperature”
15°C Base Mean Surface Temperature for Terra.
6°C Minimum for crop growing season on most worlds.
0°C Lower limit of human comfort.
-5°C Crop “killing frost” temperature on most worlds.
-20°C Lower limit of human habitability.
-36°C Hardy plants killed on most worlds.
-78°C Carbon dioxide solidifies to form dry ice.
-183°C Liquid oxygen boils.
-196°C Liquid nitrogen boils.
-273°C Absolute Zero.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Hmmm, I suspect that those temperatures for comfort are based on Northern European concepts of comfort as 30 degree Centigrade is only 86 degree Fahrenheit, while temperatures in the Amazon Basin, coastal areas of New Guinea, the Australian Outback, and the Arabian Peninsula would be that or higher. Also, probably Massawa in Eritrea, based on Edward Ellsberg's account of being stationed there in World War 2. The average temperature where I was in the Solomon Islands was 82 degree Fahrenheit, and quite stable because of the surrounding water.
I would have to check on the average temperature for the Bolivian and Tibet Plateaus for comfort levels there.
I agree; I suspect there are quite a few hidden assumptions in there. "Comfort" is such a subjective thing. Get a nice sea breeze going, 86 is quite nice. Still air on a humid day, 86 is quite miserable.
On the other end of the scale, you can die of hypothermia at 0 Celsius if you're not dressed right (my idea of comfort does not include needing a sweater) yet there are a number of places that get down below that, "Lower limit of human habitability," figure and stay there for weeks at a time.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I have a friend that works on the North Slope in Alaska doing maintenance work on the Alaskan Pipeline, and they are at -40 (same for both Celsius, and Fahrenheit) on a regular basis. Then you have the Russian Vostok station at the southern Pole of Cold and the US South Pole Station in Antarctica.
As for warmth, the Australian Aborigines seem to do okay in the Outback at temperatures significantly warmer than 30 degrees Celsius, 86 degrees Fahrenheit.
After my first trip to England, I became much more suspicious of British explorers claiming extremely hot conditions, as to the British, anything much over 80 degree Fahrenheit is hot. Reading Sir Samuel Baker's accounts of exploration in Africa added to that when he writes of how nearly impossible it is for a white man to do anything at a temperature of 93 degree Fahrenheit. When training at Fort Riley, Kansas in the mid 1970s for ROTC, we were operating it temperatures of about 100 degrees, and that was wearing woolen fatigues and combat boots, along with web gear and helmet.
As for warmth, the Australian Aborigines seem to do okay in the Outback at temperatures significantly warmer than 30 degrees Celsius, 86 degrees Fahrenheit.
After my first trip to England, I became much more suspicious of British explorers claiming extremely hot conditions, as to the British, anything much over 80 degree Fahrenheit is hot. Reading Sir Samuel Baker's accounts of exploration in Africa added to that when he writes of how nearly impossible it is for a white man to do anything at a temperature of 93 degree Fahrenheit. When training at Fort Riley, Kansas in the mid 1970s for ROTC, we were operating it temperatures of about 100 degrees, and that was wearing woolen fatigues and combat boots, along with web gear and helmet.
What's missing is humidity. I've felt colder in London (UK) at zero celsius than in Calgary (Canada) at -20 celsius ... as Calgary is dry and London is damp. Same thing with heat.
IIRC there are parts of the rainforest in Borneo (used by the British Army for survival training) where it's quite hot but not excessively so ... but the humidity is so high the human body literally cannot cool itself by sweating. It's very easy to get heat exhaustion if doing any kind of physical activity.
IIRC there are parts of the rainforest in Borneo (used by the British Army for survival training) where it's quite hot but not excessively so ... but the humidity is so high the human body literally cannot cool itself by sweating. It's very easy to get heat exhaustion if doing any kind of physical activity.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Nice. I've got to copy that.
RE: Grand Census/Survey and World Builder's Handbook
Certainly WBH is based on GC and GS. I've never tried to match them, item for item, but my impression is, from using both, that there are differences in the two (more than just a couple of things). Maybe I'd learn differently if I compared the text.
When I play Classic Trav, I use GS and GC. When I play MT, I use WBH. I usually don't cross-pollinate books.
Sorry, Blue, that's not quite true. (Hey, see what I did there?!!) Yes, he was in the right place at the right time, but it was a bit of a fluke. And he paid real money for the rights and the leftovers that Joe had been going to chuck in the dumpster, which also helped Joe out cash-wise. There was certainly nothing sinister about it, before or after. It was all done with good intentions.
I vote we call a moratorium on critiques of Rodge.
"Mad dogs and Englishmen,
Go out in the noonday
Out in the noonday
Out in the noonday sun!!"
I'll second that. It's too easy for people to jump to conclusions that are not founded. Everyone is entitled to earn a living. Suggesting inappropriate behavior is hearsay, at best.
For what it's worth, it's not how I heard it explained on this very BBS, and by Joe's own wording.
Like I say, I don't know the man, I don't want to know him, nor do I have too much to add. If someone pays what he paid to open up the archive, then I'll believe it.
The other truth is is that I honestly don't care too much, but I do care about the game itself and for it to continue to thrive and bring in new players and enthusiasts. It's why I'm still puzzled by people's nostalgia for DGP's archive.
And I guess that's why I post on these threads.
Look, I've dealt with Joe Fugate. All he's really aware of is that Rodge never was able to get anything DGP to print, and that the contracts with Rodge did NOT include a reversion clause.
Joe has no idea what the problems were and the reasons why Rodge didn't get a license for DGP. I was there, on Rodge's side of the business. I still have this dream of my name on a DGP book some day. So I support a moratorium, mostly because whenever anyone brings it up, eventually I get my hackles up about "Roger Sanger" comments.
And now Rodge spends most of his time doing triathlons. Joe Fugate has his model trains. Each to their own.
The whole topic makes me sad. This is why I don't go back through my 90s Traveller e-mail pile frequently.
Joe has no idea what the problems were and the reasons why Rodge didn't get a license for DGP. I was there, on Rodge's side of the business. I still have this dream of my name on a DGP book some day. So I support a moratorium, mostly because whenever anyone brings it up, eventually I get my hackles up about "Roger Sanger" comments.
And now Rodge spends most of his time doing triathlons. Joe Fugate has his model trains. Each to their own.
The whole topic makes me sad. This is why I don't go back through my 90s Traveller e-mail pile frequently.
Mine's on floppy, ergo I'm not tempted.
I guess the other reason I post on threads is to encourage people to move on. Thank goodness for the 105 Vehicle thread in the T5 section.
I guess the other reason I post on threads is to encourage people to move on. Thank goodness for the 105 Vehicle thread in the T5 section.
US Copyright Law itself includes a reversion clause for transferred copyrights.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
I'll reiterate once more that the intent of this thread wasn't to bash anyone, but to find out, from those in the know, why the material is locked up airtight, given Roger Sanger's "waiver" (see post #1, this thread). DonM and, to a degree, aramis, have shed the best light on the matter.
I'm sad that Sanger hasn't just said, "the hell with it, here it is" or "I paid x, you can have it for x+y". In any case DonM claims to be working on it and aramis seems confident that it will reappear in about 7 years.
I'll be blind, or dead by then, but it might just be back.
Not that it's part of this topic but, I can't see it overwritten, or written out of canon. To much, to good and to popular.
I'm sad that Sanger hasn't just said, "the hell with it, here it is" or "I paid x, you can have it for x+y". In any case DonM claims to be working on it and aramis seems confident that it will reappear in about 7 years.
I'll be blind, or dead by then, but it might just be back.
Not that it's part of this topic but, I can't see it overwritten, or written out of canon. To much, to good and to popular.
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
That's 3 votes for a moratorium. Case closed.
Knowing this was a problem I did a poll a few months back. We had a lengthy discussion. When I see the very same things discussion comments (not years but a couple months later) it is discouraging.
I'd ask people review the other thread which was posted here.
Knowing this was a problem I did a poll a few months back. We had a lengthy discussion. When I see the very same things discussion comments (not years but a couple months later) it is discouraging.
I'd ask people review the other thread which was posted here.
