RTT like AD&D 2Ed?

[BlackBat242]

The threads by Echo seem to me to indicate that RTT will follow the pattern established by TSR... a few large books that have simplified versions of everything (too simple to be playable), and lots of supplements that expand on the same classes and design rules (enough to make them playable), as well as add new stuff.

This to force people to buy everything, not just some.

What would be best would be for the core rules to have:
1. COMPLETE (advanced) chargen for the 6 basic careers (the supplements would each add 6 complete careers),
2. sufficient details on the "major species" to play them (the supplements would add species and describe the "empires" of the 6 "majors"),
3. a good ship/vehicle design system that uses pre-fabbed modules (which will be broken down into their component subsystems in the "advanced ship design supplement"),
4. a basic equipment/weapons list (with more in the supp),
5. and a decent personal/ship combat system (again, simple but directly expandable for the supplement).


This is, however, unlikely from the tone of things. Expect the "core book" to be either a skeleton upon which you MUST hang the supplements to get a playable game, or for the "core" rules to be superceded by the supplements, not enhanced by them.

 

[Echo]

Well, we know that there will be 11 (+2) Careers detailed in the core-rules, which should provide some decent choices for players. If they also have a mechanism that provides cultural background options (and skills), and a choice of different types of college education, then there should be all the detail that you are looking for there.

I'm not sure there will be much detail on any of the alien races from the Imperium in the core-rule book. Don't forget that the core rules themselves will be designed to be generic, not directly tied to the Imperium setting. This was, in fact, how it was done in the original classic books anyway - the alien stuff came in later sourcebooks. Whilst there may be some info/options about playing aliens in the core-rules, I think the default option (as it always has been) will be that the characters are human.

I'm not sure how the ship design system will work, but we have been informed that the core-rules will have more of a customising type of deal to start with (unless this has changed). The full design-from-scratch will probably come in a later sourcebook, I'd suggest.

I'm sure that there will be a decent equipment/weapons list and personal/ship combat system detailed in the core-rulebook.

The way to look at it is that the core-rules should include everything you need to run any generic sci-fi universe, particularly involving starships and star-mapping. The setting stuff will come later.

 

[Stainless]

The core 2nd ed AD&D books were "too simple to be playable"? That's news to me.

I've never understood the obsession with ship design. Personally I've never designed a ship and feel no need to do so. If there's a good sampling of ships in the equipment list (and supplied through supplements) I'm fine, so I see no place for them in the core rules (i.e., my personal opinion of course).

 

[Ron]

Well, we know that there will be 11 (+2) Careers detailed in the core-rules, which should provide some decent choices for players. If they also have a mechanism that provides cultural background options (and skills), and a choice of different types of college education, then there should be all the detail that you are looking for there.
[...]

So, we will have pre-career choices but not advanced careers? Great! That is exactly the way I like it.

 

[aramis]

Any core traveller without ship gen loses credibility.

Most sci-fi games need an underlying framework. Exposing that framework in the core is a useful tool for refs.

In a space opera (the genre, not the game) game, it provides the basic knowledge of the relative cost assumptions for ships and shipping. It also provides the needed costs for replacing destroyed systems, and a basis for costs of repairs. It further shows the potential for upgrades. All important for the typical space-opera merchant or merc game.

THat was the beauty of both Traveller and Space Opera (the game, not the genre, this time) is that (except for TNE), you had all you needed in the core to build custom universes: Characters, Ships, and Worlds.

It was also a failing in d6 Star Wars (by WEG). Since there was no design protocol for the setting, and the ships ratings were convertible, it instead had modification rules, to cover much the same details...

 

[Jeff M. Hopper]

Any core traveller without ship gen loses credibility.

Most sci-fi games need an underlying framework. Exposing that framework in the core is a useful tool for refs.

In a space opera (the genre, not the game) game, it provides the basic knowledge of the relative cost assumptions for ships and shipping. It also provides the needed costs for replacing destroyed systems, and a basis for costs of repairs. It further shows the potential for upgrades. All important for the typical space-opera merchant or merc game.

THat was the beauty of both Traveller and Space Opera (the game, not the genre, this time) is that (except for TNE), you had all you needed in the core to build custom universes: Characters, Ships, and Worlds.

It was also a failing in d6 Star Wars (by WEG). Since there was no design protocol for the setting, and the ships ratings were convertible, it instead had modification rules, to cover much the same details...

I have to agree with Aramis here. Ship design was one of the things that I found really attractive about Traveller as a game system and positively influenced my original purchase of the game.

 

[pendragonman]

I also agree with Aramis. Without ship design, what would make a space opera (genre) game different than a fantasy (genre) game?

Taking out ship design would be like removing spells from D&D. Not a brilliant move by anyone's account.

 

[Flynn]

Does anyone know of a thread somewhere that contains all the RTT tidbits that have been confirmed to date? I've seen similar threads for 4E on other boards, but haven't spotted one yet for Traveller. Echo?

Thanks in advance,
Flynn

 

[Berg]

Does anyone know of a thread somewhere that contains all the RTT tidbits that have been confirmed to date? I've seen similar threads for 4E on other boards, but haven't spotted one yet for Traveller. Echo?....Thanks in advance

Yes, this would be most helpful

 

[Tobias]

I also agree with Aramis. Without ship design, what would make a space opera (genre) game different than a fantasy (genre) game?

Another point: If there is to be a ship design system, it should be in the core rules (and as complete as possible).
Reason: Suppose a rule system without ship design rules at all. If there are a few sample ships, one could make up new ships by the same system that was used to make these samples - none at all.
But if there is a ship design system, and the sample ships are made using this system, you cannot make up new ships by the same system without it being printed in the main rules. You could theoretically make up ships on the fly like in the above case, but these would be invalidated by the actual system when it is later published.

 

[aramis]

Several space operatic games lacked design rules for ships in the core.

Spacemaster 2nd edition
Star Wars d6
Star Wars d20
Star Frontiers
Star Riders (TFOS seqel)
Tales from the Floating Vagabond.
Traveller: THe New Era
Traveller: 2300
Battletech/Mechwarrior/Battlespace
Renegade Legion

In the case of RL, BT/MW/BS, TNE, T:2300, SpaM II and Star Frontiers, the ship design systems were separate boxed games; RL had two boxed games for spacecraft (Interceptor and Leviathon)

Star Wars already has a plethora of statted out ships for either edition, and no design system would likely match up and still be playable.

Star Riders simply states to make it up.
TFOS avoids the whole ship issue by dimension hopping.

 

[Tobias]

In the case of RL, BT/MW/BS, [...], the ship design systems were separate boxed games;

It is much more precise to say that the roleplaying systems were separate books. Playing them without the preceding boardgames (which included construction rules) is pointless. Of course for MW, spaceships were much less important than, uh, 'Mechs. MW 1st edition is indeed an extreme example of an RPG that needed the vehicle design and combat rules to work. Without BattleTech, you simply didn't have a complete game (and actually, without CityTech and AeroTech as well, you were still lacking a lot of stuff.)
2300AD and TNE are prime examples of how annoying a crippled approach to ships in the core rules is. Either leave ships and ship combat out entirely or include them entirely.

 

[aramis]

Quite agreed, Tobias, about 2300 and MW. Actually, MW 2e was playable without mechs, as they provided enough information about the setting to do non-mech stuff and generate non-mech-focused characters. (I don't have MW 3e to compare to.)

Not so about Renegade Legion. Since RL had enough common vehicles in the core, and rules for using them, that it was playable without the boxed games.

With Spacemaster II, the lack of ships in the core was a point that rendered the core to be "all three boxed sets" (SPacemaster, Armored Assault, and Star Strike) rather than the Spacemaster box alone. (SpaM I had robot, vehicle and ship design in Tech Law...)

When I first ran 2300, I avoided ships other than as plot devices. There simply were no adventurer class ships in the book, no way to make them, and thus, no point in ship-based characters. Then I used HG, playing in the 3I, with Jdrives. (I find 2300 a better system than CT overall.)

 

[Merxiless]

Well, I more or less disagree with the seeming majority here.

While it's nice to have a ship design system, that more necessary for a ref to custom tailor his/her own setting, based on the rules, which then become a generic bridge between the Official Game Universe, and whatever the Ref's Universe / Variant is.

If there are lots of ships, and an established Canon, you don't need a ship design system, because you can always fudge it close enough from what is / has been established for Most roleplaying and combat situations.

The fact that most Traveller players like to be able to calculate profit and loss with a spreadsheet for their latest Free Trader run does not make it true, nor necessary for most gamers / referees out there.

If I'm running a Star trek, or Star wars game, I'm not worried about the cost of the ships, and how much a 3 LY range radio transciever costs, more the action of the big battles between empires.

Certainly, that's a factor in any sort of "War" but the front line captains are not worried about it when the bad guys are launching torpedoes in their face.

Something like Traveller needs ship designs and has them, comma, High guard conflicts with Stiker, conflicts with The Traveller Book, left and freaking right. Toss in Wildstar's offerrings, and it's just like I want to say Damn, it can jump, it can carry 40 tons of cargo, and has two guns, and can take 12 hits, and LEAVE IT.

That's all players are really typically worried about in my experience. Really.

Kind of like Armor Class, Hit Points, To Hit, and Damage. That and a few dice, and you are ready to go, in a fantasy combat.

Simple, modular systems, fast play, and get on with the story.

And I didn't personally think that WEGs ship mod system was lacking, it seemed to me to be "Solo and Chewie tweaking it to the max, and paying or 'aquiring it by other means' accordingly."

But overall I agree with, A suitably generic sfrpg system should have Characters, Places, and Tools/Tech, just BECAUSE the intent is to allow you to build your own.

A specific setting doesn't need it.

 

[DaddyDragon]

To me, Traveller is, by definition, a tale in 3 parts. Character Creation, Ship Design and World Building/Economic Simulation. To "BE" Traveller, it must have those three elements in the core rules, whether its a single book, or broken down into a 2 or 3 volume set. I will admit though, the thought of shipbuilding tables and rules for ship and world design after a pass through the world famous 'Mongoose Publishing Quality Control Filter' sends a cold tendril of dread up my spine.

I almost think that we'd be lucky if this whole deal were to just lie stillborn on the table.

YMMV,
Larry

 

[Vargas]

Two questions:

1) What did Mongoose do for its B5 products?

2) Did it learn any lessons about what it did wrong in those products?

 

[GypsyComet]

To be fair to Renegade Legion and Battletech, in both cases the RPG was the *last* thing released.

Traveller with just example stats (ala TNE) can work, but since a big chunk of the ship rules need to be in the same book so the example designs *make sense*, and you'd better have written most of the design rules already just to have those examples, including the construction rules is not a huge burden. Particularly if those rules are simplified. Do a page count on CT Book 2's actual construction section sometime...