Sandcasters.... How do they WORK?

[Supplement Four]

I've read/heard several different ideas for implementing sandcasters in a game. I've never quite got my head around the idea.


....Are they depth-charge-like cannisters that are fired out of a standard missile launcher, that, when they explode right outside the hull, throw sand in a cloud around the ship? The ship can leave the sand cloud, which continues on the ship's original vector, and return to it later (provided it matches vectors with the sand)?


....That a sandcaster is really a fire-house type affair that blows sand all round the ship from a sandtank deep within the bowls of the vessel. The sand cloud either operates as described above....or some type of gravitic focusing device is used to "grab" a load of it and "swing" a dense section of it in between the ship and incoming laser fire.


....That a sandcaster is a point-defense type weapon. The computer identifies and evaluates incoming laser fire (travelling at the speed of light), and in a split nano-moment, swings the sandcaster to face the incoming laser, firing a puff of sand at the leading edge of this laser fire, hopefully defracting the light.


I think I've heard a few other ideas about how sandcasters work.

But, what's the prevailing idea on these things?

How do they work?

 

[Supplement Four]

I've read/heard several different ideas for implementing sandcasters in a game. I've never quite got my head around the idea.


....Are they depth-charge-like cannisters that are fired out of a standard missile launcher, that, when they explode right outside the hull, throw sand in a cloud around the ship? The ship can leave the sand cloud, which continues on the ship's original vector, and return to it later (provided it matches vectors with the sand)?


....That a sandcaster is really a fire-house type affair that blows sand all round the ship from a sandtank deep within the bowls of the vessel. The sand cloud either operates as described above....or some type of gravitic focusing device is used to "grab" a load of it and "swing" a dense section of it in between the ship and incoming laser fire.


....That a sandcaster is a point-defense type weapon. The computer identifies and evaluates incoming laser fire (travelling at the speed of light), and in a split nano-moment, swings the sandcaster to face the incoming laser, firing a puff of sand at the leading edge of this laser fire, hopefully defracting the light.


I think I've heard a few other ideas about how sandcasters work.

But, what's the prevailing idea on these things?

How do they work?

 

[Whipsnade]

WJP,

How do sancasters work? In the Real World thye operate by PFM(1).

IMTU, sandcasters throw out a canister.

- The canister may be 'slung' out, it may have a small motor of it's own and 'swim' out, it may be a little of both.

- The canister itself is either controlled by the ship, had 'orders' given to it (like a torpedo/missile), or both.

- Once the cansiter reaches a certain point relative to the ship deploying it, it releases the sand it holds. That release may be by explosives, 'vented' by gases, or deployed by other means; i.e. gravitic.

- The pattern of the sand differs. At early TLs it is merely a sphere. Later it is a disc or 'plug'. At the highest TLs, the sand is deployed into a 'cone' or 'wedge' shape with the largest end oriented towards the attacker(s).

- The pattern does not last long. Laser fire will disarrange and/or destroy it. Sand will also 'drift' relative to the vessel that deployed it. The vessel may not be moving/accelerating, but the sand will still have vector that differs from the vessel because of it was deployed from it's canister which meant it had to move. Because of this drift, a sand pattern's utility whether it is fired on/thru or not will not last longer than a {i]HG2[/i] combat round.

- The composition of the sand itself varies by TL and the weapon it was desinged to defeat. IMTU, there is pulse sand, beam sand, plasma gun sand, and fusion gun sand.

Some other IMTU nonsense:

- At TL 16+, the development of tractor technology (repulsors already exist) allows sand to begin to act like a 'shield'. First, the pattern can indefinitely be held in position relative to the deploying vessel and even re-oriented towards different threats. Second, the pattern can be 'dragged along' by a maneuvering ship. Third, a 'damaged' pattern, on that has been fired upon, can be repaired through rearrangement and reseeding. Because the pattern can be reseeded, vessels can now 'stack' sand to obtain greater battery ratings over time; in three turns, a Factor-2 sand battery that has not resisted beam/missile weapons can 'stack' to create a Factor-6 battery effect. Fourth, sand can now be recovered and recycled.

Finally, IMTU I do not follow the DGP idea that a 'ranging laser' somehow gives the sand battery operator enough warning in enough time to deploy sand against the laser strike that will follow. IMTU, you deploy sand against potential threats because there is no time between 'ranging' and 'strike', if 'ranging' even occurs.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Pure F*cking Magic

 

[Whipsnade]

WJP,

How do sancasters work? In the Real World thye operate by PFM(1).

IMTU, sandcasters throw out a canister.

- The canister may be 'slung' out, it may have a small motor of it's own and 'swim' out, it may be a little of both.

- The canister itself is either controlled by the ship, had 'orders' given to it (like a torpedo/missile), or both.

- Once the cansiter reaches a certain point relative to the ship deploying it, it releases the sand it holds. That release may be by explosives, 'vented' by gases, or deployed by other means; i.e. gravitic.

- The pattern of the sand differs. At early TLs it is merely a sphere. Later it is a disc or 'plug'. At the highest TLs, the sand is deployed into a 'cone' or 'wedge' shape with the largest end oriented towards the attacker(s).

- The pattern does not last long. Laser fire will disarrange and/or destroy it. Sand will also 'drift' relative to the vessel that deployed it. The vessel may not be moving/accelerating, but the sand will still have vector that differs from the vessel because of it was deployed from it's canister which meant it had to move. Because of this drift, a sand pattern's utility whether it is fired on/thru or not will not last longer than a {i]HG2[/i] combat round.

- The composition of the sand itself varies by TL and the weapon it was desinged to defeat. IMTU, there is pulse sand, beam sand, plasma gun sand, and fusion gun sand.

Some other IMTU nonsense:

- At TL 16+, the development of tractor technology (repulsors already exist) allows sand to begin to act like a 'shield'. First, the pattern can indefinitely be held in position relative to the deploying vessel and even re-oriented towards different threats. Second, the pattern can be 'dragged along' by a maneuvering ship. Third, a 'damaged' pattern, on that has been fired upon, can be repaired through rearrangement and reseeding. Because the pattern can be reseeded, vessels can now 'stack' sand to obtain greater battery ratings over time; in three turns, a Factor-2 sand battery that has not resisted beam/missile weapons can 'stack' to create a Factor-6 battery effect. Fourth, sand can now be recovered and recycled.

Finally, IMTU I do not follow the DGP idea that a 'ranging laser' somehow gives the sand battery operator enough warning in enough time to deploy sand against the laser strike that will follow. IMTU, you deploy sand against potential threats because there is no time between 'ranging' and 'strike', if 'ranging' even occurs.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Pure F*cking Magic

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
- The canister may be 'slung' out, it may have a small motor of it's own and 'swim' out, it may be a little of both.

- The canister itself is either controlled by the ship, had 'orders' given to it (like a torpedo/missile), or both.

- Once the cansiter reaches a certain point relative to the ship deploying it, it releases the sand it holds. That release may be by explosives, 'vented' by gases, or deployed by other means; i.e. gravitic.

I was reading in CT that the sand cannisters weigh 50 kg.

Now, that's not a whole lot of sand.

I asked LKW this same question a couple of years ago on the TML. He came back with a vague answer that was something like, "I think Marc saw them like submarine depth charges."

Maybe several of these 50 kg cannisters are fired over a period of a single 1000 second combat round. Then, they all blow simultaneously, creating the cloud.

Mayday says that a ship typically carries enough sand to hide the ship 10 times (10 uses of the sandcaster).

But, Book 2 seems to allude to a single 50 kg cannister being used to hide or "cloud" the ship once.

Some official Trav sources say the cloud dissapates after a time. Some sources say the cloud stays intact, and a ship can find its way back into a cloud after leaving it.

Some people posit that the sandcaster system includes gravitic focusing modules on the hull of the ship--that a single cannister of sand explodes outside, having been launched from the sandcaster, and these focusing modules "pull" the sand to cover vital areas of the ship.

(I kinda like that idea).

I've noticed that, in all the versions of Traveller, the sandcaster is the vaguest item to sit on the Traveller-store-shelf.

Heck, even MJD's Grand Fleet, which I just purchased last night, is vague about how a sandcaster goes about protecting its ship.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
- The canister may be 'slung' out, it may have a small motor of it's own and 'swim' out, it may be a little of both.

- The canister itself is either controlled by the ship, had 'orders' given to it (like a torpedo/missile), or both.

- Once the cansiter reaches a certain point relative to the ship deploying it, it releases the sand it holds. That release may be by explosives, 'vented' by gases, or deployed by other means; i.e. gravitic.

I was reading in CT that the sand cannisters weigh 50 kg.

Now, that's not a whole lot of sand.

I asked LKW this same question a couple of years ago on the TML. He came back with a vague answer that was something like, "I think Marc saw them like submarine depth charges."

Maybe several of these 50 kg cannisters are fired over a period of a single 1000 second combat round. Then, they all blow simultaneously, creating the cloud.

Mayday says that a ship typically carries enough sand to hide the ship 10 times (10 uses of the sandcaster).

But, Book 2 seems to allude to a single 50 kg cannister being used to hide or "cloud" the ship once.

Some official Trav sources say the cloud dissapates after a time. Some sources say the cloud stays intact, and a ship can find its way back into a cloud after leaving it.

Some people posit that the sandcaster system includes gravitic focusing modules on the hull of the ship--that a single cannister of sand explodes outside, having been launched from the sandcaster, and these focusing modules "pull" the sand to cover vital areas of the ship.

(I kinda like that idea).

I've noticed that, in all the versions of Traveller, the sandcaster is the vaguest item to sit on the Traveller-store-shelf.

Heck, even MJD's Grand Fleet, which I just purchased last night, is vague about how a sandcaster goes about protecting its ship.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Finally, IMTU I do not follow the DGP idea that a 'ranging laser' somehow gives the sand battery operator enough warning in enough time to deploy sand against the laser strike that will follow.

FWIW, DGP's Starship Operator's Manual is just as vague about how a sandcaster works as any other official Traveller source that I've seen. There was nothing in the SOM about a ranging laser.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Finally, IMTU I do not follow the DGP idea that a 'ranging laser' somehow gives the sand battery operator enough warning in enough time to deploy sand against the laser strike that will follow.

FWIW, DGP's Starship Operator's Manual is just as vague about how a sandcaster works as any other official Traveller source that I've seen. There was nothing in the SOM about a ranging laser.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by WJP:
FWIW, DGP's Starship Operator's Manual is just as vague about how a sandcaster works as any other official Traveller source that I've seen. There was nothing in the SOM about a ranging laser.

WJP,

FWIW, DGP wrote many more things for Traveller than SOM.

It may have been in a Travellers' Digest or a MegaTraveller Journal or a Q&A column or in some description somewhere else, but they mentioned sand being launched after a 'ranging' ping or 'painting' and before the laser strike arrived.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by WJP:
FWIW, DGP's Starship Operator's Manual is just as vague about how a sandcaster works as any other official Traveller source that I've seen. There was nothing in the SOM about a ranging laser.

WJP,

FWIW, DGP wrote many more things for Traveller than SOM.

It may have been in a Travellers' Digest or a MegaTraveller Journal or a Q&A column or in some description somewhere else, but they mentioned sand being launched after a 'ranging' ping or 'painting' and before the laser strike arrived.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by WJP:
Some people posit that the sandcaster system includes gravitic focusing modules on the hull of the ship--that a single cannister of sand explodes outside, having been launched from the sandcaster, and these focusing modules "pull" the sand to cover vital areas of the ship.

WJP,

Some people? Do they posit something like this: At TL 16+, the development of tractor technology (repulsors already exist) allows sand to begin to act like a 'shield'. First, the pattern can indefinitely be held in position relative to the deploying vessel and even re-oriented towards different threats.?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by WJP:
Some people posit that the sandcaster system includes gravitic focusing modules on the hull of the ship--that a single cannister of sand explodes outside, having been launched from the sandcaster, and these focusing modules "pull" the sand to cover vital areas of the ship.

WJP,

Some people? Do they posit something like this: At TL 16+, the development of tractor technology (repulsors already exist) allows sand to begin to act like a 'shield'. First, the pattern can indefinitely be held in position relative to the deploying vessel and even re-oriented towards different threats.?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[epicenter00]

I read a description that "sand" is actually pretty "smart." I think it's in FF&S for TNE. While I know people in this part of the forum don't use TNE rules, there is an explanation of how sand works that may be of interest.

You shoot a cannister of sand from your ship and it deploys a cloud. I doubt it'd use explosive or extremely high-pressure since there's nothing in space to keep the cloud from dispersing - it'd continue to disperse even after reaching optimum saturation. The cloud moves at the same delta-vee as the launching ship, and is tethered to it via controller fields.

At the first TLs sand becomes available, the sand is magnetized and projectors on the hull are used to shape and orient the sand towards incoming attacks. Since this is assumably vulnerable to magnetic countermeasures (though none are ever described in FF&S*), later TLs use grav fields for the same purpose. Guessing the direction and orienting the sand particles for maximum absorption/reflection is is apparently the point of making Screens skill rolls against attacks.

IMTU, Sand is available from lower TLs than standard Traveller. However, lower TL "sand" are more like smoke-screens. They're short-lived, can't be focused against threats, and disperse quickly. However, "dumb clouds" like these are very cheap to generate. Many lower TL navies have "smoke rockets" (cheap unguided rockets that just produce thick clouds of radiation-opaque smoke) or escorts that carry smoke screens and emit them behind them (similar to what older Russian tanks did by splashing fuel directly onto their engines).


* Kicking up the effectiveness of Sand and then developing anti-Sand countermeasures that ships could carry could make starship combat more interesting in Traveller. Perhaps "gravitic burst" missiles (could be jammed or shot down, also missiles can run out), magnetic field "sandsweeper" beams (useable in close, but less suspectible to countermeasure). Perhaps this is why people still use fighters in TI, to increase the number of incoming vectors of laser beams to force Sand clouds to thin out. Hmm...

 

[epicenter00]

I read a description that "sand" is actually pretty "smart." I think it's in FF&S for TNE. While I know people in this part of the forum don't use TNE rules, there is an explanation of how sand works that may be of interest.

You shoot a cannister of sand from your ship and it deploys a cloud. I doubt it'd use explosive or extremely high-pressure since there's nothing in space to keep the cloud from dispersing - it'd continue to disperse even after reaching optimum saturation. The cloud moves at the same delta-vee as the launching ship, and is tethered to it via controller fields.

At the first TLs sand becomes available, the sand is magnetized and projectors on the hull are used to shape and orient the sand towards incoming attacks. Since this is assumably vulnerable to magnetic countermeasures (though none are ever described in FF&S*), later TLs use grav fields for the same purpose. Guessing the direction and orienting the sand particles for maximum absorption/reflection is is apparently the point of making Screens skill rolls against attacks.

IMTU, Sand is available from lower TLs than standard Traveller. However, lower TL "sand" are more like smoke-screens. They're short-lived, can't be focused against threats, and disperse quickly. However, "dumb clouds" like these are very cheap to generate. Many lower TL navies have "smoke rockets" (cheap unguided rockets that just produce thick clouds of radiation-opaque smoke) or escorts that carry smoke screens and emit them behind them (similar to what older Russian tanks did by splashing fuel directly onto their engines).


* Kicking up the effectiveness of Sand and then developing anti-Sand countermeasures that ships could carry could make starship combat more interesting in Traveller. Perhaps "gravitic burst" missiles (could be jammed or shot down, also missiles can run out), magnetic field "sandsweeper" beams (useable in close, but less suspectible to countermeasure). Perhaps this is why people still use fighters in TI, to increase the number of incoming vectors of laser beams to force Sand clouds to thin out. Hmm...

 

[The Oz]

In STRIKER, you can use sandcasters as giant shotguns that have a high penetration rating at effective range (enough to blast through battledress) and a large area of effect. This implies that either the sand is launched from the 'caster at a high velocity, or the sand "explodes" from the canister at a high velocity.

 

[The Oz]

In STRIKER, you can use sandcasters as giant shotguns that have a high penetration rating at effective range (enough to blast through battledress) and a large area of effect. This implies that either the sand is launched from the 'caster at a high velocity, or the sand "explodes" from the canister at a high velocity.

 

[Ptah]

Interesting, I never knew how they worked canon-wise or other wise. My conjecture has always been that sand canisters are not so much shot out as spewed out around the ships. The sand bearing a charge and an electromagnetic field about the ship keeps it in close proximity.

To move it away from your own turrets you set up standing nodes that attract it over certain parts of the ship and repel it from others. How you keep it close but not too close, maybe change the polarity (charge) of the field in a very rapid and complex way.

 

[Ptah]

Interesting, I never knew how they worked canon-wise or other wise. My conjecture has always been that sand canisters are not so much shot out as spewed out around the ships. The sand bearing a charge and an electromagnetic field about the ship keeps it in close proximity.

To move it away from your own turrets you set up standing nodes that attract it over certain parts of the ship and repel it from others. How you keep it close but not too close, maybe change the polarity (charge) of the field in a very rapid and complex way.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

mtu, it works as a combination of a shaped charge and a modern aircombat chaff dispenser. The "sand" is not sand, but an aggregate of tightly packed Reflec particles and a substance similar to the stuff that used to be the coating on old movie screens.

Attacking ships would have a noticeable attack plane/vector, of which the gunner anticipates and fires a cannister. The cannister discharges, with a blast footprint that makes a large disk shaped field of the material, blocking the attacker's line of fire.

At best, it can be effective for at least 2 combat turns before dispersal renders it useless. Multiple firings would of course increase the protective area.

The "cloud" does not move with the ship, nor is it "smart". The Gunner and computer are smart.

The charge in the cannister is relatively weak, making the device almost useless in Gravity. It is a space combat defensive system only, with no sort of attack value at all.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

mtu, it works as a combination of a shaped charge and a modern aircombat chaff dispenser. The "sand" is not sand, but an aggregate of tightly packed Reflec particles and a substance similar to the stuff that used to be the coating on old movie screens.

Attacking ships would have a noticeable attack plane/vector, of which the gunner anticipates and fires a cannister. The cannister discharges, with a blast footprint that makes a large disk shaped field of the material, blocking the attacker's line of fire.

At best, it can be effective for at least 2 combat turns before dispersal renders it useless. Multiple firings would of course increase the protective area.

The "cloud" does not move with the ship, nor is it "smart". The Gunner and computer are smart.

The charge in the cannister is relatively weak, making the device almost useless in Gravity. It is a space combat defensive system only, with no sort of attack value at all.