Scans...maybe fair use

[chshrkt]

I think the vast majority of us here are well cognizant of the value of IP and do not willingly or flagrantly violate it.

However, when the source material is many years, decades in most cases, out of print, and the only approved re-issue of that material is spotty in quality, I in particular would like to "get what I paid for".

I bought the CT CDROM, and even have a stickied thread here outlining my attempts to help resolve scanning issues, with no response after an initial word of encouragement from Marc. So, I am left twisting in the wind.

Frustrating...

 

[far-trader]

I agree, both with the frustration and desire for quality. I bought the CD too, anticipating the scans would be every bit as good as the BFB reprints. Sadly not, atrociously so in some places. Still, warts and all it was a good buy.

But the only way I see it being done (improved scans from those who have the originals and a corrected download for those who bought the CD) is if Marc appoints someone we can believe is in the loop and capable (DonM seems to be a possible, but the CD isn't up yet, one thing at a time) and then it is kept up with solid feedback and communication. Given the past selective and spotty responses from Marc and the current state of CotI, I'm not sure it's possible or that this is the forum to do it in. Not unless something changes.

As for me coming off preachy on the issues, I call it how I see it, albeit a bit softly imo. I'm no angel but I dislike the suggestions I saw here, especially since I do agree we all know better.

 

[DonM]

Sorry guys.

I've got more than one person's PM in my box tonight asking why the reprints and not the CD; or why not both...

I believe in focusing on ONE project at a time, getting it done right, and closing it. I want to close the BFB reprint issues, and not have to go back to them.

Some of you have had promises made about fixes to this or that, and those fixes haven't materialized. So when I posted about gathering the issues for the BFB reprints, I actually expected to be told to get...
:nonono:

Well, anyway... my view is that until we can close one issue, perhaps we shouldn't be trusted to close any issue.

 

[far-trader]

No apology needed DonM, from you at least. I hope I haven't contributed to the load of extra questions, and if I have I'm sorry.

I totally get where you're coming from and it IS the right way to do it. Get them sorted out one at a time and done right the first time. Or at least try to

 

[aramis]

Now this got me thinking. How about the following hypothetical, would this be fair use if...

#1) I own/purchased a hard copy of a GDW product (those property that still belong to MWM)

and

#2) I copied small parts/sections of it for graphic/visual aid distribution for my private inner gaming circle (i.e. my own players only, and no one else). Strictly for gaming use as an aid.

Fair or not fair?

Provided you kept those copies, and/or destroyed them after use, fair.

If your gamers walked out with them, not fair.

A game session generally is comparable to classroom use.

Kafka: asking for PDF's of product is in fact a violation of the board rules.

 

[chshrkt]

DonM,
Just as F-T stated, no apology needed. I am chomping at the bit with the possibility that there will be some movement on the source material at all, and will willingly provide any help I can getting things sorted out, scanning of my own stuff for the greater good, etc.

I am staring at my bright yellow BFB, The Adventures 1-13 on the bookshelf right now. Were it not for the introduction of the CD ROM while I was contemplating making a $199+ purchase to get the rest of them, I would own them, but still with a bit of frustration because of printing errors and the way they are bound (making them tough to use around a gaming table because they don't lie flat).

 

[atpollard]

Provided you kept those copies, and/or destroyed them after use, fair.

If your gamers walked out with them, not fair.

A game session generally is comparable to classroom use.

Isn't there some sort of 'archival/research' exception to copywright protection that applies to material used for 'education'. I vaugely remember seeing some long poster full of words posted at a University Copy machine explaining what was allowed - but that was 10 years ago.

 

[aramis]

According to my District, that exemption list was abrogated by the 2002 changes to law.

 

[kafka47]

Yes, this absolutely falls within Fair Use.
And I would like a copy of the scan.
Thank you
Marc
-----Original Message-----
From: ***
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:41 PM
To: marc@farfuture.net; farfuture@gmail.com; onlooker1@verizon.net
Subject: Fair Use Ruling
** Proprietary **
Hello Marc:
As I do not wish to violate Fair Use by soliciting, I was wondering if you
would permit a scan of the front & back covers of the Atlas of the Imperium
to create two 8x11 sheets which I would then use as a prop in a game.
Also, Robject mentioned that you might be also interested in a copy of the
scan, as apparently the one that exists in the CT CD ROM is awful. Kindly
advise.

416-xxx-xxxx

 

[far-trader]

To pick a fine point there kafka47 in your initial post you asked if someone could make a scan for you, implying if not admitting that you don't own the material. You don't specifically mention that in your email to Marc, which would change the context considerably.

It might not change Marc's answer, but it does open the door to all kinds of abuse if he said "Absolutely, Fair Use allows you to make copies from other peoples items for your use in a game." Go ahead and ask him, I'd be interested in his answer.

If he still says it's fine I'll have to stop making a nuisance of myself on his behalf. And I'll have to start thinking about the odd page or two that I don't own but sure could use in my games and solicit other people for on the internet, with Marc's blessing. Please ask him to update his Fair Use policy and clarify that point so that we may all benefit from this new openness.

 

[far-trader]

And while you're at it can you ask him just where his (FFE) Fair Use policy has gone to? There's no link on the front page and no sight of it anywhere anymore. All we have are vague references to it from the QLI version here. It's a serious issue as a number of sites relied on it and linked to it but now it's gone and for all intents and purposes it does not exist anymore meaning there is no Fair Use policy. Period. Marc's say so to you (or anyone) personally in an email won't cut it for general use. Unless he wants to be swamped with requests for every desired Fair Use question and intends to answer them.

 

[Rhialto the Marvelous]

Fair use is a matter of copyright law.

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

Your copyright to your work exists whether or not you post it on a website, tattoo it on your forehead or otherwise advertise it publically.

It's also quite clear (and normal) what Marc considers fair use. Any copying that amounts to a game aid is fair use. Any copying that amounts to saving people the expense of buying a book is not. The criterion is $$$, quite simply.

 

[far-trader]

That's the way I always figured it Rhialto, but hey, there's Marc's email saying sure go ahead and get somebody else to scan what you need from anything you don't have. It saves kafka47 the expense of buying the book or CD with it (at least it sounds like he has neither). I'm not sure Marc understood the request as framed. Or if he did then I'm not sure it is all that clear and normal anymore just what Marc considers fair use.

It's also quite clear (and normal) what Marc considers fair use. Any copying that amounts to a game aid is fair use. Any copying that amounts to saving people the expense of buying a book is not. The criterion is $$$, quite simply.

This case (any copying for a game aid) is an example of why those two statements don't work (since it is also any copying that amounts to saving people the expense of buying).

 

[Merxiless]

Seems quite clear to me that the request was for covers.

Marc approved scanning of covers and seeing the need for a good scan to forward it to him.

Nowhere did I read, and i find hard to believe that Marc would say anything like (or intend to say) scan what you don't already have for others.

That's what the CD-rom is still being sold is for.

 

[kafka47]

Update

The end use is what is important.
Its still OK.
Marc
-----Original Message-----
From: <kafka>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:01 PM
To:
Subject: RE: Fair Use Ruling
** Proprietary **
Hello Marc (once again):
Just want to clarify, I wish someone else to do the scans of the covers for
me, as I do not own the material. Someone asked that I clarify the issue
with you once again.
Thanks!


>>> "Marc Miller" <> 16/08/2008 6:30 pm >>>
Yes, this absolutely falls within Fair Use.
And I would like a copy of the scan.
Thank you
Marc
-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 4:41 PM
To:
Subject: Fair Use Ruling
** Proprietary **
Hello Marc:
As I do not wish to violate Fair Use by soliciting, I was wondering if you
would permit a scan of the front & back covers of the Atlas of the Imperium
to create two 8x11 sheets which I would then use as a prop in a game.
Also, Robject mentioned that you might be also interested in a copy of the
scan, as apparently the one that exists in the CT CD ROM is awful. Kindly
advise.
Cordially,

 

[far-trader]

Thank you very much for the clarification kafka47 (and Marc), though I still worry about the huge can of worms it opens up.

It seems to be opening the door for creation of a website to post scans of all the (FFE copyrighted) Traveller material with a disclaimer that you can only use a couple pages for your own game props with the blessings ("The end use is what's important.") of Marc.

At the very least it clearly seems to say I or anyone else can now post freely here or anywhere for scans of any Traveller material we don't own that may be helpful in our game and that neither the asker or the provider will be in trouble.

I had no trouble understanding the previous and general Fair Use policy, this boggles me a bit.

 

[far-trader]

Seems quite clear to me that the request was for covers.

I see no legal difference or distinction. But I'm not a lawyer. I also don't see Marc limiting it to this one case in the first or subsequent email. Though that could just be shortsightedness on his part.

 

[Merxiless]

Maybe email Marc with your concerns.

He's not giving Traveller away any time soon.

He's allowing a guy to scan covers and send him the same.

Dollars to donuts some kind of site with "use the pages you want (but only a few)" is gonna get a C&D from Marc, and the ire of people like me, who will let him know about it, plus the ire of the die hard fans who are loath to see Traveller stolen.

Something like what you are talking about would bust his revenue stream. He's not stupid, he's being cool and seeing a way to have someone else scan some covers for a product that he needs cover scans for.

 

[Gruffty]

he's being cool and seeing a way to have someone else scan some covers for a product that he needs cover scans for.

Indeed. Marc emailed me back this evening to say he's downloaded the scans, so I've taken them down. They're no longer available to be accidentally stumbled across.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

I think it's pretty clear Marc was giving permission for a specific case - just the covers, for personal use - rather than, "hey, take everything".