Scuttling

[Hemdian]

I'm working on a Traveller scenario for IN characters. Their ship (an AHL cruiser) has misjumped way beyond the Imperial border with a skeleton crew and its not possible (with their limited resources) to get it back home. However, they do have a smaller ship which can get them home. But what to do about the cruiser? Do they scuttle it or just abandon it?

What would the US Navy do today in a smiliar situation ... if it had to abandon a major warship in foreign waters? Scuttle it? If so, can someone point me at the wording of the relevant regulation or order?

Regards PLST

 

[ElHombre]

i don't know the official regulations on this but it's worth noting that during WW2, navies would sink their own ships rather than letting them be captured, repaired, and used by the emeny. almost ANY ship can be repaired. most of the ships sunk at pearl harbor were repaired, rearmed and sent out to get revenge on the japs. ditto the carrier 'lexington.' of course, that was during a war.

when they bombed the USS Cole, a ship located in foreign waters, they brought it back to the us for repairs. it was rather cool to see. they hired a ship from norway that was able to carry the entire ship back from yemen.

then there's the adventure thread. abandon the ship, return home, then start a new adventure whose goal is the recovery of the AZL.

 

[Spiderfish]

Depends are the inhabitants of the region capable of repairing the AZL and using it against the Imperium.

If so I reckon they'd scuttle it or hide it VERY WELL before going anywhere.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Scuttle, definitely.

"When German troops invaded the Naval Dockyard in the morning of August 29, 1943 orders were issued to scuttle the Danish Navy"

http://www.navalhistory.dk/English/History/1939_1945/us_safari.htm

The Bismark was probably scuttled, rather than sunk.

The Graf Spee was scuttled rather than risk being sunk.

USS Sculpin was scuttled.

http://www.csp.navy.mil/ww2boats/sculpin.htm

etc

Not only can ships be used by the enemy, if captured, but they often contain classified information and equipment.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Scuttling is/ has been a Navy last resort method of preventing the ship's capture by unfriendly powers.
Now in Traveller this can be accomplished several ways...
***conventionally destroying its abilities to wage combat/ and be moved ( but leaves the hull intact)
*** setting the fusion power plant and what remaining fuel on a china syndrome catastrophic meltdown/explosion.
*** Or, failing the engineering craft to do so, have her set on a one way course to the primary star or into a gas giant for a last one way dive..

my .000000125mcr, YMMV.

 

[The Oz]

If no one knows the AHL is there yet, the captain might risk trying to hide it somewhere (like out in the Oort Cloud of some star system) if there's any chance of eventual recovery. If not, he'll scuttle the ship.

ElHombre: USS Lexington was not salvaged and repaired. She wasn't at Pearl Harbor, but at the Battle of the Coral Sea she was damaged by the Japanese and scuttled to prevent her possible capture. The US then gave a new Essex-class carrier the same name.

 

[ElHombre]

Oz,

sorry. i should have been more clear. the pearl harbor mention was about the battleships that were there.
the lady lex should have gotten a separate paragraph. i was referrring to its damged condition and miraculous repair job that allowed it to fight at midway. i intended it to make the point that almost any ship that floats can still fight.

 

[The Oz]

<nit-pick pendant mode on>
USS Lexington was sunk at Coral Sea.

USS Yorktown was damaged at Coral Sea, repaired in two days at Pearl Harbor, then fought and was sunk at Midway.

And a new Essex-class carrier was given her name to carry, too.
<nit-pick pendant mode off>

 

[mike wightman]

How about scuttling by powering up the jump capacitors and then not jumping, or jumping from within the 10 diameter limit of a planet?

 

[Hemdian]

Okay, so there are a number of different methods of scuttling (one not yet mentioned would be to detonate all the missile ordanance).

But is there a RL example of post war non-peaceful scuttling? What about US or USSR ships/submarines caught in each other's waters during the cold war?

Regards PLST

 

[Liam Devlin]

My memory is dim for exact date, last century, but I do believe the North Koreans scuttled a diesel powered attack sub (a Russian built job)rather than let the US Navy or South Korea have it.--from me Da's Spook navy files. (sometime before may 15 1987 when he retired)

 

[Liam Devlin]

US NAvy example- USS Pueblo- The Scuttling attempt was scotched when North Korean Torpedo boats raked the decks with cannon fire, killing those responsible with the job. The ship was boarded forcibly (it only had 4x .50 caliber machineguns for armament). Most of the electronic gear was smashed with an axe to make it unuseable, but the Commies still got the ship and propaganda victory out of it.

My father was on her sister ship USS Liberty 1968 at the time. Both were ELINT ships for listening to enemy trnsmissions.

 

[Andrew Moreton]

[

"When German troops invaded the Naval Dockyard in the morning of August 29, 1943 orders were issued to scuttle the Danish Navy"

Most of which survived to see action under the German flag
http://www.navalhistory.dk/English/History/1939_1945/us_safari.htm

The Bismark was probably scuttled, rather than sunk.

Recent evidence suggests that seh sank due to the number of Torpedo's which had hit her. Examination of the hull showed that the ruptures where created by external explosions rather than internal ones.

The Graf Spee was scuttled rather than risk being sunk.

Yes a very strange Logic

USS Sculpin was scuttled.

http://www.csp.navy.mil/ww2boats/sculpin.htm

etc

Many U-boats where scuttled when forced to the surface as well

Not only can ships be used by the enemy, if captured, but they often contain classified information and equipment. [/QB][/QUOTE]

However as a different model , until the 20th century it was customary for many ships to surrender once resistance had becoem pointless and many ships in the British navy where captured French, Dutch, Spanish, Danish and American ships.
It was not unherad of for captured British ships to serve in other navies as well

 

[savage]

Have to agree with earlier comments. An AHL is an expensive piece of hardware. If its possible to send the other ship for help. I'd believe that would be the first route. Only if necessary would a few remaining crew members destroy the ship.

As an alternative to blowing it up... they could burn it up in the sun, an atmosphere or crush it in a gas giant. All effective alternatives do detonation.

Savage

 

[Bob Weaver]

Gentlemen,

I think the highest consideration for the captain to take between scuttling and abandoning is the political/military situation. If the ship's stationary and in a cold/cool zone, then shut down all power, depart the ship, note the coordinates and come back to get it later. Only if there is a clear and present threat of capture (i.e. you're operating in your enemy's home system) should a multi-million (or billion) starship be scuttled. If there's any chance at all of recovering the ship, leave it intact. Remember that space is BIG. Move the ship out of "travel lanes" and in an unpowered state it will be virtually impossible to find.
As a historical note, even 'destroyed' ships can be rebuilt. The library where I work has on display a US flag taken from the USS Cassin (DD 372)which was in drydock 1 with the Pennsylvania at Pearl Harbor. Cassin was bombed, set on fire, suffered internal explosions and capsized into another ship. What parts of it still were usable (the power plant & maneuver drive, if you will) were shipped to Mare Island and a new hull was built around them. Cassin took part in the assault on Iwo Jima and the battle of Leyte Gulf.
As it was pointed out, this was during a war; I doubt the effort would have been made in peacetime.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

"The Bismark was probably scuttled, rather than sunk.

Recent evidence suggests that seh sank due to the number of Torpedo's which had hit her. Examination of the hull showed that the ruptures where created by external explosions rather than internal ones."

Not according to http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/bismarck2.html

"The Graf Spee was scuttled rather than risk being sunk.

Yes a very strange Logic"

If she'd fought, she'd almost certainly have been sunk. Scuttling her robbed the British of the chance to claim a victory, not to mention saving the lives of the crew.

 

[jasper]

Don't forget the recon plane of usa recently that the Korea pilot bumped.
I think the situation who depend on scuttling and not scuttling.
If scuttling to what degree and how to prevent capture.
Time bomb the antimatter engines un overload the fusion engines.
Aim for star. Leave individual small scuttling charges behind. Ex. Imc the pilot was in with a hijacking plot. He rigged a deadman switch which blew the pilot console and other necessary parts which would prevent the crew from regaining piloting control in under 24 hours. In others duct tape down the gas pedal. Remove the steering wheel and take the pilot manual with you.

If you are near 7 to 12 parsecs into enemy space you could leave a cold sleep crew aboard (Scotty, Ensign Wesley), aim the ship for home.
Note time. Leave. Get home and rescue mission needs to carry working crew, prize crew, and Jump 1 fuel excess of abandon ship to return to nearest gas giant.

 

[Liam Devlin]

Umm Jasper, IIRC, that was a Chinese pilot that forced the Orion Elint ASW plane down. Not Korea. But it was a Navy Plane..

 

[Hemdian]

Okay, all interesting stuff, and educational too. Some additional details on the planned scenario:

The AHL is going to misjump almost to the galactic core. The survivors will have to travel back along (roughly) the Zhodani Core Route ... a campaign loosely based on Star Trek Voyager. I can substitute a Gazelle CE for one of the fuel shuttles (saying the jump drive is in need of repair but they can canabalise some of the AHL systems to make it functional ... yadda yadda yadda). The survivors will be upto 16 members of the AHL's frozen watch (number depends on revivification rolls), roughly half gunners and half engineers. Getting the AHL back with such a small crew would be ... problematic. The chance of recovery if the AHL is abandoned and hidden seems ... remote. Also, the campaign start date is years after the end of the 5FW and the AHL isn't exactly cutting edge technology.

At the moment it seems like the players' decision which way to go. But I'm reviewing the IN Regulations on StuffOnline and wondering if there should be a regulation, policy statement, or some other guidence to cover such matters. That's basically why I started this thread: what would the IN want in this situation?

Regards PLST

 

[The Oz]

At that distance there's practically no chance of recovering the ship so I think the IN would want the ship scuttled, but I also doubt there's any regulation on the matter. There might be one saying that no captain should allow his command (or any sensitive Imperial technology) to fall into potentially hostile hands, and that's enough to justify scuttling the ship.