Seats on a STARSHIP BRIDGE

[kilemall]

Look, there are only so many hit songs out there about robot prostitutes, ok?
And even fewer opportunties to mention them with a lyric quote and title drop.


(It's pretty subtle about it, though -- perfectly SFW.)

ELO did a potential robot girlfriend song. Uncanny Valley problems.

 

[Spinward Flow]

we know from LBB5 that the base skill on warships is assumed to be 2.

Which, conveniently enough ... means that crews can be 1-for-2 (1 person per 2 positions that use the same skill) in almost every department on warships, because of the factor I outlined above. It also means that crews are not "skilled enough" to start receiving +DMs for skills that "matter" to LBB5 combat (because you need skill-3 in order to yield a +1DM on stuff).

in CT I think Electronics and Mechanical skills for ships are overlooked.

This is undoubtedly true, unfortunately.
I consider this factor to be something of a "side effect" of the radical pruning/simplification of rules regarding who can be qualified to fill what positions on a starship. If you truly want to get down into the weeds of ALL THE SKILLS that a crew would NEED in order to operate and maintain a starship with minimal outside support/assistance you start getting into the realm of Prohibitively Large Crew Sizes for anything ACS relevant.

The way I think about it is that Electronics and Mechanical skills are effectively "bonus electives" for engineering crew. On large starships (think 1001+ tons) the crew is going to be large enough to have engineers who specialize in additional skills (such as Electronics and Mechanical) to sustain the upkeep work needed to maintain a large starship. But on ACS starships (100-1000 tons) the skills of Electronics and Mechanical become "nice to have" luxuries in crew, rather than minimum requirements in order to qualify for engineering crew positions. NICE TO HAVE™ but not required in order to qualify. When crews are (intentionally) SMALL, there are going to be skills that (as an operator) you'll need to "outsource" to starport support specialists and personnel. This is why for craft under 200 tons, there is no requirement for a navigator, engineer or medic to be onboard ... so that the (proverbial) One Man Scout Ship™ can be an achievable reality. The (single person) crew doesn't NEED to have ALL THE SKILLZ to "make it go, Geordi" ... they just need to "return to (scout) base" periodically so that berthing/shore support can Do All The Things™ that need doing in order to keep a 100-199 ton starship running in good condition between annual overhaul maintenance cycles.

Control circuits, sensors, fire control and critical equipment are the domain of the former and mundane items like hatches, life support air/water/sewage and fuel lines all need motors/pumps.

So good idea that have some on the crew with those skills even if they aren’t engineers per se. Larger engineering crews should have specialist sections covering this.

Smaller ships won’t have that luxury, might be an unfortunate drop in skill level when these failures come up.

Exactly.

 

[Condottiere]

We now have an option to downsize bridges, at minus one penalty to bridge actions.

The implication is same number of seats, just more intimate.

 

[kilemall]

We now have an option to downsize bridges, at minus one penalty to bridge actions.

The implication is same number of seats, just more intimate.

LBB5 has the couch/no bridge computer rule, referring to that or MgT stuff?

 

[Condottiere]

I don't recall it occurring before Mongoose.

The more extreme variant being a virtual bridge, no tonnage, just a computer with a virtual crew programme.

I think at this point, the bridge is basically a central location, where the Captain is informed what's going on in, and outside the hull, and can easily and swiftly direct actions to other compartments.

Odds are, can also take direct control of other ship components.

 

[kilemall]

I don't recall it occurring before Mongoose.

The more extreme variant being a virtual bridge, no tonnage, just a computer with a virtual crew programme.

I think at this point, the bridge is basically a central location, where the Captain is informed what's going on in, and outside the hull, and can easily and swiftly direct actions to other compartments.

Odds are, can also take direct control of other ship components.

I should make clear that the computer only rule is only for small craft and those are much smaller. Not for full size ships.

 

[whartung]

Just as a side note.

In what little I've seen either live, or in movies, or whatever, the size of the ships does not, necessarily, determine the size of the bridge.

The bridge of an aircraft carrier is not that much larger than a bridge of a Destroyer or Guided Missile cruiser.

The bridge is mostly (it seems to me) focused on navigating the ship and keeping it from running into things. How many folks do you really need to do that?

The only reason bridges are large on, say, container ships is simply because they fit the space of the overall superstructure. I've been on those bridges, and the one I was one was really roomy, but at the same time, it was not particularly dense with equipment and controls. I felt it was that big because it could be, not that it needed to be.

Now, engineering will scale, to a point, with the engineering section. But honestly, if you have one motor, and one temperature gauge, does it really matter how big that motor is? Maybe those huge steam ship diesels have a temperature gauge on each cylinder. Staff goes up, just dealing the volume and linear space of the equipment, but that's not the same thing.

Finally, I would imagine that something like the CIC of a Destroyer is smaller than one on the CGM simply because there are fewer systems to manage. In WWII, everything was individually manned (use the then current TL6 Mark II Eyeball (now with shatter resistant goggles!) for guidance). A more automated system obviously reduces the need to put someone on every button.

 

[Dragoner]

That is kind of the thing is that from an engineering standpoint one has to ask what the crew is doing, the ship will be fly by wire, and components will be removed and replaced at a port. However, the benefit of all the crew have the same duty station, is that rescue operations will only have that place to go to. Otherwise it is just adapting the rules to the reality. I kind of liked at the titan missile silo they had a rule that all watches had to be two people, that seems logical.

 

[kilemall]

That is kind of the thing is that from an engineering standpoint one has to ask what the crew is doing, the ship will be fly by wire, and components will be removed and replaced at a port. However, the benefit of all the crew have the same duty station, is that rescue operations will only have that place to go to. Otherwise it is just adapting the rules to the reality. I kind of liked at the titan missile silo they had a rule that all watches had to be two people, that seems logical.

For Traveller crewing, I would presume the larger engineering crew is for manning watches, getting more secondary skills guaranteed that I outlined above, and more hands for fixing damage if it happens.

 

[Condottiere]

I wouldn't worry too much - like a lot of things, High Guard command centres don't quite make sense.

A collective collection of consoles, whose primary function is the running of the spacecraft, of variable volume, probably would.

 

[Dragoner]

For Traveller crewing, I would presume the larger engineering crew is for manning watches, getting more secondary skills guaranteed that I outlined above, and more hands for fixing damage if it happens.

All crew have "Ship 0" skill from cross-training, imtu. The different departments are main duties, though likely they can fill in for other positions.

 

[mike wightman]

Coffee with an aftertaste:

 

[Grav_Moped]

This is undoubtedly true, unfortunately.
I consider this factor to be something of a "side effect" of the radical pruning/simplification of rules regarding who can be qualified to fill what positions on a starship.

It's possibly also a legacy of the deliberately-broad skills (and fewer of them) of the LBB1/S4 paradigm. Engineer included Mechancal and Electronics as applied to drives and starship equipment because it had to -- you only get so many skills per term, and they by definition have to cover all necessary tasks because otherwise things can't get done.

 

[casquilho]

It's possibly also a legacy of the deliberately-broad skills (and fewer of them) of the LBB1/S4 paradigm. Engineer included Mechancal and Electronics as applied to drives and starship equipment because it had to -- you only get so many skills per term, and they by definition have to cover all necessary tasks because otherwise things can't get done.

I agree with this 100%. Over time and editions/publications the game shifted toward more skills and narrower scopes per skill. This had an impact for sure on how characters felt/played.

 

[mike wightman]

I grant Engineers mechanic and electronic at level 0 - I've known too many engineers that have no idea which end of a hammer to use...

 

[Grav_Moped]

I grant Engineers mechanic and electronic at level 0 - I've known too many engineers that have no idea which end of a hammer to use...

Different kind of engineering. Operating engineers vs. design engineers. No pocket protectors here -- these are the kind that shovel coal into locomotive fireboxes, turn valves, and watch gauges (at lower TLs).

 

[kilemall]

Different kind of engineering. Operating engineers vs. design engineers. No pocket protectors here -- these are the kind that shovel coal into locomotive fireboxes, turn valves, and watch gauges (at lower TLs).

Exactly my take. Engineering IMTU means practical fusion power, jump, maneuver, and gravitics (pretty much ignore the specialized skill). No cascade.

Engineering in the profession/design sense IMTU is predicated on education. EDU 6- is shadetree engineer, Engineer-3 and EDU B+ is a PhD.

Electronics and Mechanical are similarly broad scopes in their arenas.

Don’t forget these skills impart the ability to operate the equipment. So no sensor or comms skill, electronics does that, and mechanical allows for lower tech vehicles to be driven at a -1.

But it’s not unreasonable to have crossover capability- for instance I allow navigators and gunners to use sensors at a -1 because that is part of their job. Pilots -1 at comms for the same.

 

[Condottiere]

Unpaid interns, and a banana.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I grant Engineers mechanic and electronic at level 0 - I've known too many engineers that have no idea which end of a hammer to use...

I allow navigators and gunners to use sensors at a -1 because that is part of their job.

Except ... long range sensors operation is explicitly mentioned in the writeup for the navigation skill in LBB1.81.

LBB1.81, p21 (bold added to draw attention to relevant passage):

Navigation: The individual has training and expertise in the art and science of interplanetary and interstellar navigation.

Travel between worlds depends on the starships and their crews; the navigator is relied upon to plot the course and to insure that correct information is made available to the pilot and crew as they need it. The navigator interprets the long-range data provided by the ship's scanners and detectors. Navigation expertise qualifies a character for the job position of navigator on a starship or interplanetary vessel.

My personal interpretation of this is that pilots are "adequate" for short range (12 hours or less) voyages that can be undertaken by small/big craft. Even at orbital velocities, voyages of less than 12 hours can be "handled" just fine by pilots since everything is (effectively) "short range" in navigation terms.

Note that ~12 hours is typically plenty of time to maneuver out of "most" jump shadows in order to reach a jump point. So for many interstellar starships of 200 tons or less, there is rarely a "need" for a navigator. A large majority of planet to moon or even moon to moon transits within orbit of a single planet can be undertaken in less than 12 hours, so "local" transfers can be handled just fine by pilots. Additionally, interplanetary charter prices (Cr1 per ton per hour) have a minimum of 12 hours built into their pricing (LBB2.81, p9) ... which isn't a coincidence.

It's when you start getting beyond 12+ hours of voyage time on maneuver drive that you start needing navigators to plot your courses to keep your craft on track to reach your destination (reliably). Thus, any interplanetary craft (or even just small craft with a stateroom to extend crew endurance beyond 12-24 hours of life support reserves) will need to have a navigator (if operating solo/independently). This has implications for system defense boats and fighters, which may need to conduct long duration patrols and/or distant rendezvous from their base of operations or parent craft. In a carrier type context, the navigator aboard the carrier can provide the necessary skill to support patrol operations of fighters and sub-craft while those sub-craft are (effectively) "tethered" or otherwise in communication range to the carrier. However, if those sub-craft are assigned missions that take them more than 12 hours maneuver time away from their parent carrier and/or require them to be operating independently (silent running, etc.) then navigation skill becomes important for those crews operating at those distances and they can't rely on the navigator "back on the carrier" to provide that skill to them.

Point being that navigation skill isn't JUST relevant to interstellar jumping ... it can also be highly relevant to long range interplanetary reconnaissance and survey missions, deep strike/long loiter time mission tasking for system defense fleet maneuvers, along with a whole host of other applications ranging from prospecting/mining to search & rescue to salvage & recovery operations. Knowing WHERE you are and WHERE YOU'RE GOING over time frames of longer than 12 hours become excruciatingly important when making (longer) transits in normal space under maneuver drive power (which, I know, most Players, Referees and Campaign Settings all too conveniently ignore in favor of the more "sexy" jump drive stuff).



Your mileage may vary, of course.

Point being that navigators are not a "waste of a stateroom" and an unwanted expense (crew salary and life support) that get "foisted" upon starships over 200 tons for "no reason" whatsoever. Navigators enable craft to operate more than 12 hours of maneuver acceleration distant from any base of operations or otherwise "known" location (such as planets/moons). They aren't JUST a "permission slip" needed to be able to jump.

 

[Enoki]

Unpaid interns, and a banana.

This is kind of where I'm at with this. For spaceships in Traveller, I see them as mostly automated for routine operations. The crew is there for the odd situation, emergency, etc. Under normal circumstances, the pilot is only necessary for operations like docking, reentry and take off (if you are going planet-side), and the like.
For a routine jump, the ship proceeds to the jump point (aka "event horizon") on autopilot. I require the ship to be stopped at that point. The navigation program sets up the jump, while the engineer or whoever charges the jump system. You jump to the primary planet in the system you are going to.

Now, where you need a dedicated navigator is you want to jump to some destination not in the canned navigation program your ship has. If you are going to some odd destination you might have to purchase the necessary data for that location. I do that for jumps to C and lower starport destinations as I say the program comes loaded only with A and B ports for the sector you're in. Hint: Another way to drain cash from the players. Being on the edge of bankruptcy makes things more interesting. Plus, there's the "Why are you going there?" aspect from the person / company selling the software, etc. So, having navigation skills helps there.

Where you need more than one person with pilot 1 and engineer 1 is when you are going to do anything other than routine jumps to A and B starport systems and the primary planet in that system. Navigator 1 is recommended, just in case.

Where all of that becomes problematic is when you are running for your life to the jump point, can't stop the ship to jump because you'll die, aren't going to jump to the primary because if you do the people there are likely to start shooting at you too, and you don't have great pilot, navigator, and engineer skills aboard... This usually results in "Where the hell are we?" if you survive.