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Secondary FTL Drive

Well, Aramis, you leave out two points:

1) Culture. Somebody, somewhere is just going to keep using B, though A is better. And, they will advance B to wherever it has to go to compete.

2) Pirates. Various nefarious do-badders will find a way to keep alive the advantages of B, though A is common throughout known space.
 
Fritz:

Culture: if system A has significant advantages, very few cultures will retain system B, and most won't survive in the long run.

Pirates: Pirate use what's available to them. If B is possible, but everyone uses A, pirates are going to have a hard time finding the parts for B, and will have to train everyone on B... so unless the tactical advantages are marginal, B will get dropped.

With the OTU-variant where SW exists, it IS faster, it DOES double as a M-Drive, and it is limited only by range. At 3 LY/Day, it's faster than J5, but has the range of J2.

Sigg: The in-system pseudo-speeds (Since the ships are actually not moving through N-space, but are teleporting nanometers to meters per flicker by quantum tunneling in a few plank units per flicker, they have a pseudo-speed of WAY HIGH, and a retained speed of source point less gravitic accumulation during transit non-flicker time) are measured in 600000000m/60sec =10,000,000m/sec =10,000 km/sec units. In system speeds are double the warp efficiency in MP; WE ranges in Star Cruiser are 0.79 to 4.81, for 158,000km/sec to 962,000km/sec


So, until TL12, and J3, there is NO reason to develop J-drives, save mercantile commerce being "safe" from raiding. Even then, range is only a factor occasionally; most of the OTU is closer than the 7.7ly/2.3 Pc system to system, and the roughly TL 10 4.81 efficiency kennedy class is capable of FTL even in-system. Likely as not, such a universe, should J-Drive actually be easier to develop, will be dominated by stutterwarp for the important and slow TL's... 9-11; only those who'd gotten to TL 13+ on JD before encountering SW will have any really good reasons to have developed J3+; even then, they will probably NOT use J3+ for anything other than hard-core military assets, and those will probably be tenders/ship-movers, which are stationed at the long gaps.

2300 is about bottlenecks. the drive enforces them. (The range, BTW, is just high enough to form the arms based upon the NSL available at writing, just long enough to guarantee earth isn't isolated.)
 
"You forgot one: quantum tunneling on a macroscopic scale. (2300's stutterwarp is such a drive. The energy cost being as low as it is means it must tap ZPE or similar....)"
Why should it cost energy? Only when you climb a potential does quantum jumps cost energy, when you go down you get energy back.

"cap relativity past a certain speed, say 50%C, so at 50%C+, the effects of increasing speed are no steeper a time dilation nor increasing thrust needed; this puts the low-end proven relativity in reach"
Relativistic effects are proven up to at least 99.999 percent of lightspeed.

"Likewise, information seems to be able to be sent faster via some advanced physics projects."
No, information does is not sent faster than light in these experiments, often reported as "teleporting" in popular media.

One problem with having several FTL technologies (aside from handwaving) is that the more physical laws you break the more problems you get in your gameworld. Look at thrusterplates and the relativistic rock problems you got from that. If one wants to add another FTL tech, make sure it has severe limitations that make it impractical.

A stutterwarp that requires near flat space (say out beyond Pluto the sun) you could have cultures that use it mining the Oort and never bother with solar systems. An entirely unknown civilization living smack among the regular mudballers.

I was toying with the idea of disallowing jumps to deepspace. Each jump would land with the same gravitational potential so jumping close to a star would have you exiting close to a star. This would make the Imperium totally oblivious to what is out there in deep space and also making deep space fuel caching etc next to impossoble. Spacers would fear the space betwen the stars in the same way as sailors fear the ocean depths.
 
I was toying with the idea of disallowing jumps to deepspace. Each jump would land with the same gravitational potential so jumping close to a star would have you exiting close to a star. This would make the Imperium totally oblivious to what is out there in deep space and also making deep space fuel caching etc next to impossoble. Spacers would fear the space betwen the stars in the same way as sailors fear the ocean depths.
It would work but it also takes deep space away as a backdrop. My players fear deep space because of the lack of fuel, limited sensor ranges, and the vast cold emptiness that I emphasize. I like having the ability to have the players jump out into an unknown area. So far any hint that I have dropped has been met with scoffs and dismissive noises as if to say “Are you nuts?! Do you want to die?!” The further away they are from a populated worlds smack them with more pirates, meteor showers and unanticipated radiation storms.

The more we talk about it the more I am convinced that except at very high tech levels the jump drive is the only way to go.
 
A factor of stutterwarping ships that make them extremely hard to hit is that while the stutterwarp is cycling, you can program it to make random jumps at right angles to the ship's direction of motion. The distance may be only 100 meters or less, but that is enough to throw off fire control systems not adapted to it. Firing on a stutterwarp ship becomes a game of firing into a large probability cone of possible locations for that ship, instead of firing at a single target that can maneuver only within a limited probability cone of locations.

IIRC, part of the 2300AD/2320AD canon is the Sung War in which a non-stutterwarp fleet was engaged by a stutterwarp squadron and destroyed.
 
Bachman: the energy of coming back down is lost to entropy. Stutterwarp, as written in 2300, must either use the low energy requirements to trigger some other energy source, or the measurements of the energy cost of tunneling one atom under current scientific knowledge are way off; I'm more willing to bet the former than the latter. This is especially true since there is a clear entropic side effect... the exploding engine at 7.8 LY.

The net energy, to quote some one else, is "enough to liberate the ship from cohesion". The Improbability factor is also way high.
 
Great discussion...thanks to all.

I deliberately designed the second FTL system to be incompatible with the Terran drive. Can't wait until one of the PCs takes an active G-space drive into a stargate...
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Also, I agree with those who say one system will dominate unless local circumstances dictate otherwise. Eventually the new system will eclipse G-space drives, which will only be carried inactive for use in emergencies.
 
Stray: So do many Universes. The only honorverse one I recall involves Minovski Sails and naturally occuring warp points; it's equivalent to the Starfire Jc drives. I'm curious where the second comes in (which book) and how it differs.

Trek has several: Warp Drives, Transwarp (which isn't the same, watch Voyager for details), Wormholes, Soliton Waves, and at least one other that I can't remember the name of.

Babylon 5 has two methods of using one FTL drive; Gates and projectors.

the OTU, courtesy of Adv 12, has at least two: J-Drives, and use of pocket dimensions with dimensional portals.

The trick is that, in trek, the TWD system requires more advanced tech than WD, and stable wormholes are rare. The Soliton waves are strongly damaging to the vessel carried, but require no on-mount drive. If we count the LUG-Trek pre-warp Romulans, we get another: the Romulan "Jump-Warp" system; Warp speeds via a kick-over and sustainer field; no on-mount ability go generate the initial burst.

The trick is that, say, in Trek, Wormholes are not generated in any stable manner; the few stable ones are way faster than warp, require no warp drive, and lead to spots that basically require warp drive to be useful. Transwarp basically requires some from of tunnel maintenance, and it's hell on the ships. They don't provide any mobility.

A secondary drive system that is more advantageous, but not portable, can coexist until portability is achieved. Likewise, a secondary that is more powerful but far less flexible can survive for a while.

Take for example, Cole & Webber's Starfire Universe: I drives use a displacement phenomenon, with a strong interaction on missiles, projectiles, etc. (called interdiction effect) The J-Drives operate similarly, but far less tuned, and without the interdiction effects; top end is up to triple, only special, and heavy, version can open the wormholes. Neither of these is FTL, but both are capable of triggering the wormholes so common in the setting, and hence are (like 2300 SW) both SLD/TLD systems.. The I drives must touch the wormhole nexus to transit. JDrives don't; they can be up to 49 LS away, and still transit. Both exist in the same universe, and even the same empire. Jdrive ships are fast, but unless carried, or equipped with the heavy Jc variant, non-FTL. I drives are slower, but all are inherently capable of wormhole transit.

The reality from the campaigns I've run: Empires adopt both. Ships mount a single I engine, to transit, and J drives for combat, making the Jc Transit drive loot untennable, and negating the battle-ride motif associated with the official J-drive races of the official setting.
 
Gee, Aramis, I was going to contend that you were mistaken about your assumption that only the best drie would be put to use over the long term, but it looks like you've made the point yourself.

I was going to point out that the military hardly cares what the expense is, as long as they gain something that benefits them; a capability.

For instance, no one can doubt that radar is far superior to infrared when it comes to detecting things. Radar's range is much greater, and it gives you an exactl position. BUT, it also gives away your position, and it can be jammed easily, whereas, at close range, IR is as good as seeing, and jammers are much less widespread. It's harder to fool too. So the military uses BOTH, while civilians generally use only one or the other, for financial reasons.

Another example: Battleships were the kings of the seas, but there were still smaller ships around to do what they couldn't. Carriers are now considered the kings of the seas, enough so that they supplanted battleships completely. NO ONE has battleships any more, because carriers are so much better at the job.

BUT, submarines are the true kings of the sea, because they cannot be attacked from very far, due to their stealth, and cannot be attacked in any old way either. Guns and missiles are ineffective, you have to have torpedoes or a really big rock dropped from really high.
But we haven't moved over to all subs because carriers can do things that subs can't. If it ever became possible to put effective aircraft aboard a sub, then you'd see carriers and probably all the remaining surface warships (other than patrol craft) go away. In the meantime, the navy needs the capabilities of BOTH ships.

But darn it, you already realized this.
 
Dan Simmons "Hyperion" novels had 2 forms a FTL.

"Hawking Drive" that allows C+ speeds but still suffers relitivistic effects and takes months to get where your going, crew needs to be in hybernation, and there is a "Hawking Wake" detectable at great distance instantly.

And

"Farcasters" that seem to use wormholes too instantly travel. Downside, you need one on eather end and if the baddies steal one they can counter attack through it. They had "Jumpships" with a Hawking drive that could "Farcaster" in a fleet when they got where they were going. They even had "Farcaster homes" on spread between worlds, and permenent Farcaster portholes on there comand ships carying fiberoptic network conections for high data transfer rates.
 
Originally posted by Darium:
There might also be a commercial reason why no other FTL drives were invented. Look at automobiles, invented in the 19th century and still driven in the 21st. Think of all the different companies involed in producing a car; tire, oil, steel, glass ect. Not to mention insurance companies and local government taxes to keep up roads. A huge infrastructure is in place to service one thing. They would not want to see their place in the econmy disappear because something better came about. Remember 50 years ago many people thought by now we would driving flying cars!
No I don't. I was only 5 or 6 years old then. BTW mankind had not left his home planet either.
 
Now for my 2 CR worth.

Lets look at IC engines in real life. You have 4 versions if I am correct and 2 of them are practically identical for game purposes.

1. 4 stroke cycle recipocating piston (includes the wankle variation)
2. 2 stroke cycle recipocating piston
[refered to as 2 cycle and 4 cycle hereafter]
3. Diesels
4. jet turbine.

You can also expand this to include external combustion turbines which function almost identically to jets. The first 3 work almost identically with each other, but none has dominated the market to the extinction of the others. In fact, they tend to split the market depending on usage. Diesels are generally used where high power output is needed because they tend to last longer, but they are more massive and cost more initally. The higher cost is offset by longer equipment life and generally lower maintance requirements. 2 cycle engines tend to produce higher power output in smaller packages (like motorcycles,chainsaws, etc.),but have relativly short lifespans. 4 cycle engines tend to cover the gap between the two with a given amount of overlap. There are exceptions to the pattern above, but overall the pattern holds.

Jets and other turbines usually are more massive than other IC engines and used in larger equipment/vehicles.

There have been other forms of steam engines in the past, but they are generally non-existant today because turbines are the the most advanced form of this kind of power plant.

To tie into this discussion; there may indeed be multiple forms of FTL travel. If so, there are 2 possibalities.

1. They may be relativly equal and co-exist much as 2 cycle, 4 cycle, and diesel engines do today.
2. One form may prove to be clearly superior, as in the case of turbines over tripple expansion and Skinner uniflo steam engines of the past, or may be first produced (or be the best promoted, or have the best support, etc) of 2 relativly equal systems and have too much of a head start like VHS beat BHS for CVR's (Note DVD's have all most replaced VCR's anyway.)

IN summary, if multiple FTL methods exist, either 1 will dominate the other, or both will have some advantage over the other while not being totally superior enough to eliminate the other. If one method is discovered prior to the other, the second may never be discovered, but the first will be refined if it is possible because man must always tinker with something to try to improve it somehow.
 
Andy,
I really think there are three kinds of engines (given what you came up with originally):
Piston
Turbine
Rotary

The different number of cylinders isn't really even a difference, nor is there a difference between diesel and gasoline. All three of the above operate on slightly different concepts (and, really, the piston and rotary are very similar), without a massive shift in thinking (make fire, fire make things turn, things that turn make wheels or propellers go).

I think the appropriate analogy would be between prop and jet aircraft. They operate differently, and have different strengths and weaknesses. Yes, jets have replaced props for all our everyday commercial travel (strengths = power!, altitude), but props still have their place (strengths = endurance, cost).
 
Fritz,
There are several ways to categorize engines. However, you are not comparing engines when you compare jet propelled and propeller propelled. Turboprop equiped planes are propeller driven planes, but a jet drives the propeller. You are comparing the entire vehicle, not what powers it. My point was that in some areas, we have multiple ways to qenerate power, while in others there seems to be only one surviving even though there have been others in the past. Why should the future be any different?
 
Well, Andy, comparing detonation internal combustion engines, no matter the fuel, is comparing one fundamental technology in various cost regimes.

Jets (and TurboProps) and turbines are a second technology of the same basic principle: fuel detonation. One which is useful in certain limited regimes. Most of which are NOT on the ground.

Props are essentially, now, only for sporting planes and puddle jumpers, where speed is NOT an issue, and can be a liability.

It's really more like the difference between Air-Rafts and Small Craft. Both will get you to orbit... but you'd be hard pressed to make Venus from Earth in the Air/Raft, even the enclosed ones. Both use the same fundamental technology: gravitics; different expressions thereof. (At least, they do under MT...) Different regimes of the same fundamental technology.

Now, compare lift systems: we have three basic lift systems. Vectored thrust, Airfoil, and Air Displacement (Lighter-than-air). Only one is practical overall: airfoil. 99%+ of aircraft use airfoils. Birds, Bats, and Flying-Fish all use airfoils.

AS far as I know, Nature hasn't used displacement in the air. It does use it a variety of aquatic applications...

Insect flight mixes vectored thrust and airfoil... due to scaling issues, smaller insects actually are more thrust than airfoil. Big critters, however, use Airfoils.

If it moves, we generally lift it into the air by airfoils. If it loiters long term, we lift it by displacement. Short term, we still use Airfoils most of the time (Helicopters move their airfoils, rather than moving the whole plane).

As of late, we use Magnetics to lift things a very small space... but unless some element changes, MagLev is likely to remain a tight niche.

We have three major branches of thrust, but all three are reaction drives. Ionized Gas Accelerators, Chemical Combustion, and Thermal Expansion. (A 4th, pressure release rockets, are mostly just novelties.) All work by accelerating a working medium out the back. All have particular regimes in which they work best. Chemical is awesome for high thrust, short duration. Thermal Expansion drives (often called resistojets) are used for very light duty, intermittent, single propellant applications, like satellite RCS systems; a new regime is being proposed for this application, using really high temperatures, and air as the expanded fluid... but they still are one fundamental technology: expanding gas going out the -z to push you on the +z.

Light-pressure propulsion is proven possible... but it is really dwarfed even by the miniscule thrust of Ionized gas drives. Solar wind is also doable... same deal. But, the two combined have some promise, but the new generation of ionized gas/plasma accelerators looks to put them back into the "Not worth it category."

Bab-5, for example, postulates a SINGLE underlying technology, with two different ways to use it. Both Gates and Jump Drives (in the B5U) simply allow you to open portals to/from jump-space.

Trek's various drives all seem based upon different applications of a single "subspace theory", save wormholes, which are possible under many current theories, but not practical, unless all you want to do is send radio. Plus, we see a generation ship in TOS... Yonoda... and TNG. But those two are special cases; one is sublight... they didn't have warp. The other is a generation ship not due to lacking warp, but because it's refugee-filled.

When looking at multiple star-drives, ask yourself: Are these really two separate approaches, or different regimes of ONE approach. If they are separate regimes of one approach, it is far more likely to see them remain in parallel use.

If they are two truly different approaches (EG Stutterwarp and Jump Drive, or Stutterwarp and T-plates), due to similar regimes, only one is likely to predominate. In the case of M-Drives, the Stutterwarp has it all over the T-plates. In the case of FTL, it depends upon the tech paradigm.

Taking that last back up... If merchants pick Jump, it makes it harder, but not impossible, for the military, to go SW, at least as an MD. But if the merchants go SW, the military WILL follow, if only to do literally that... follow and harrass, follow and escort. They might ALSO mount J-Drives, but if they do, non-JD ships will have a huge mass/volume advantage.
 
Originally posted by Fritz88:
[QB] Andy,
I really think there are three kinds of engines (given what you came up with originally):
Piston
Turbine
Rotary

The different number of cylinders isn't really even a difference, nor is there a difference between diesel and gasoline.
Actually cylinders were not brought up, when he said four and two stroke he was referring to the strokes the pistons take inside the cylinder, not the number of cylinders. A two stroke piston has a linear stroke a four stroke piston follows the otto stroke instead.


Four Stroke Cycle (otto stroke)
1. Induction Stroke
2. Compression Stroke
3. Combustion Stroke
4. Exhaust Stroke

You are right though that four and two strokes all follow the same intake, compression, power and exhaust system.

How come you placed four stroke and two stroke engines seperate from diesels Andy? Diesels are going to be four or two stroke, the difference comes in the method of ignition not the stroke.

Remember 50 years ago many people thought by now we would driving flying cars!
Isn't someone actually designing flying cars at the moment?
 
Andy, you are right on props v jets in the sense you state. I, however, meant piston-driven props (on puddle-jumpers) v jets of all types.

Aramis, don't forget the SS Botany Bay as a sublight TOS ship!

spiderfish, I didn't catch that in Andy's post - a good point. You are right. (Of course, you then make the same point that I did! ;) )

Also, though several folks have worked on flying cars, they don't seem to work well because of the different propulsion concepts involved in each. (BTW, I would love one - it would significantly improve my weekly commute (currently at 3 hours each way) to something I might even be able to do daily.)
 
Guys, I think we are all saying about the same things only in different ways.

1. In some places we have differing systems/adaptions of systems because no one tecnique or application has been inclusive enough to consume all the others. Example our IC devices discussions.

2. As far as FTL goes, we don't have a system/method that works so we can only speculate. My guess is that if/when mankind develops that technology there will be different applications and maybe even different methods discovered of making FTL work.

3. Aramis, I would like to point out that turbines are both IC (jets) and EC (steam plants). Yes the internal combustion version is not used very much for land purposes except maybe for setting land speed records and other non-productive purposes, however, the external combustion turbines are the only method used for large scale electrical production either as fossil fueled or nuclear fueled steam turbines. There are also some gas turbine plants for supplimental power in peak load conditions. I don't know if they are IC or EC as I have never been around them. Anybody out there know for sure on that one?
 
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