mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Isn't that the same data source that has the Sword Worlders arrive in the Spinward Marches on stl ships, and totally new and radical technology introduced to the MgT ATU?
T4 Only: Selean Federation Background
- Thread starter ManOfGrey
- Start date
Last I heard, Mongoose Publishing is an authorized agent of the IP holder and their published products are canon. Until Marc says they are not.
Canon is a tricky thing when you are not in charge of it. Sometimes it smiles at a fan.
Sometimes not. 
One day an IP holder or authorized agent makes Han Solo shoot second. Another day another IP holder or authorized agent changes the Empress Wave, causing controversy to say the least with the existing 1248 canon time period of the OTU. Now some canon history and tech of the Classic Era is being retconned. Oh well. Can't please everyone. 
Canon is a tricky thing when you are not in charge of it. Sometimes it smiles at a fan.
Sometimes not. One day an IP holder or authorized agent makes Han Solo shoot second. Another day another IP holder or authorized agent changes the Empress Wave, causing controversy to say the least with the existing 1248 canon time period of the OTU. Now some canon history and tech of the Classic Era is being retconned. Oh well. Can't please everyone. 
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
That change came from Marc, via Don McKinney's Zhodani book. Mongoose was just the available conduit. That it also suited the Mongoose editorial tendency to shake up old data was a bonus.
It's not like this is unique to Traveller, either. Game settings evolve. Traveller just has a decade or more on most other examples. Glorantha kept evolving right up to the day Greg Stafford passed, and may still be doing so under its current custodians. Then there is Battletech, in which the phrase "Oh, is that what you thought happened?" remains a design philosophy to this day.
1248 was problematic from the start, for all its good bits. Martin (the author) seems to think it's all out the window with the Wave change, but most of it still works even with the faster and more lethal Wave. It won't be a persistent state, but this *is* Traveller. We should be used to the state of the setting changing constantly.
The change is exactly this:
Previously from TNE and 1248 books: Wave enters Spinward Marches in IY1202. Wave moves/propagates at lightspeed (1 hex per 3 years). Because it enter hex row 01 in 1202, past and future positioning can be approximated. By 1248 it has reached to row 16 or 17 of Spinward Marches and Sectors Spinward and Trailing.
Impact: Maybe causes headaches to non-psions, maybe get PSI score etc. Psions maybe die/get scrambled/comatose/new power etc. Sensitive psion/exotic equipment might get fried.
Now from Mongoose Alien Module 4: Zhodani and Marc's Agent of the Imperium novel: Wave enters Spinward Marches in IY1202. Wave moves/propagates at 3x lightspeed (1 hex per year). Because it enter hex row 01 in 1202, past and future positioning can be approximated. By 1248 it has reached to row 07 or08 of Trojan Reach and Sectors Spinward and Trailing.
Impact: Drives sophonts insane. Drives animals insane. Even plants are impacted (they grow/hibernate/reproduce out of season). So civilizations fall, ecologies degrade/fall apart.
With the Wave so deadly now, I can see MJD being right stating that it is all out the window. As a writer, seeing one's efforts retconned/edited to such a great extent would certainly be frustrating/sad/(insert negative emotion). But as you say GypsyComet, most of it still works.
Until "The Frontier" opens for the Marches, most of what occurs to everyone Rimward happens without being impacted. The Lords of Thunder still make the bargain with Virus and finally start the jihad on the meat eaters.. The Hivers still go "secret war" against the Solomani. The story of the Freedom League/Terran Confederation (new) still occurs in relative isolation. The Wave will not hit them until the 1320s and Solomani Rim Sector until the 1360s. One COULD
run thru the text and see what stays, what might still happen and what will now never happen (well, ok I have ),.Without a deus ex machina thoughout the Spinward Marches, they are toast and TNE does not exist for them as currently written. Coreward portions of Vargr Extents get impacted as far back as Rebellion. The edge of the Empire of Gashikan gets hit in 1129 before Virus is even released. No one with far better writing skills than I seems to wants to deal with revisiting Rebellion/Hard Times/Virus/TNE/1248 history.
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Thanks for that NB. I've read some of the early parts of 1248. I thought it was really good as I find it seems to provide a very nice summary of rise and fall of the 3rd Imperium, along with the neighboring states. The Rebellion and Virus were a very desperate time indeed.
What's curious is the new Empress Wave. Interstellar society has already been rocked VERY hard by a civilization destroying threat that some managed to contain, but not without damage. And now this Empress Wave is coming through to finish the job.
Is the idea that Civilization is too try and come up with a tech based shield to the wave? Can the wave be Jumped over? Mass Exodus in to Jump Space to hop on the other side and resettle (and/or conquer old territories). Didn't they just do this story?
Just interesting.
What's curious is the new Empress Wave. Interstellar society has already been rocked VERY hard by a civilization destroying threat that some managed to contain, but not without damage. And now this Empress Wave is coming through to finish the job.
Is the idea that Civilization is too try and come up with a tech based shield to the wave? Can the wave be Jumped over? Mass Exodus in to Jump Space to hop on the other side and resettle (and/or conquer old territories). Didn't they just do this story?
Just interesting.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The original intent behind the Empress Wave was to reintroduce psionics, not to cause untold devastation. If you read Dave Nilsen's comments on the subject of the Empress Wave it is a very different effect than those third part authors - and that includes MWM - came up with.
Marc doesn't know what the Empress Wave was or what the intent was since he had long since left GDW by the time Dave Nilsen and Frank Chadwick were writing the New Era supplements. I wonder if he has ever tried asking Frank or Dave what they intended for TNE - how they intended the metaplot to play out. We know the brief outline, and Dave's interview filled in just enough details to hint at how things would have played out.
Marc doesn't know what the Empress Wave was or what the intent was since he had long since left GDW by the time Dave Nilsen and Frank Chadwick were writing the New Era supplements. I wonder if he has ever tried asking Frank or Dave what they intended for TNE - how they intended the metaplot to play out. We know the brief outline, and Dave's interview filled in just enough details to hint at how things would have played out.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It wasn't going to be an armageddon. The Star Vikings and their allies would eventually deal with the nefarious schemes of the Hivers and the evil expansion of Lucan's Imperium - the latter would involve an atrocity that would lead to the (voluntary) exile of the Star Vikings (I have my own version of both these events which involve lots of PC scale action rather than the twenty sixth grand fleet of charted space).
As the empress wave washed over the setting you could indeed survive by jumping over it - but it only had a major effect on the already psionic.
As the empress wave washed over the setting you could indeed survive by jumping over it - but it only had a major effect on the already psionic.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
OK, before whining about things, this forces a follow-on question. That sounds pretty bad, but what's the extent of the damage? I.e. does everyone go insane? If so, the whole OTU falls, and everyone is basically dead. If the percentage is less then 100%, then some things can survive. What survives depends on the percentage used.
Also, Avery's mission was to solve the mystery. Does he just die now? Is he recovered? Does he have a solution to save those affected? To save those still left?
The whole point of MJD's Empress Wave was to flatten the only remaining unaffected empire so that everyone was on the same footing. So, it hammered the Zhodani, but no one else. It served a narrative and setting purpose. What purpose is served by wiping everyone out? (Not saying it's wrong. Just legitimately curious on the purpose.)
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
You may recall discussions in the 90s regarding the Virus Night being too short, at 70 years or so. This version of the Wave extends that, and does it to everyone. The Zhodani are affected a bit out of proportion because of their use of psionics, but everyone will be in recovery mode for centuries.
The original Wave in print in TNE was mostly an unknown but implied to be far more dangerous than the 1248 "fancy EMP" version. The forward stations of Longbow didn't merely have service interruptions, they all went permanently dark.
Marc sped up the Wave for two reasons, as far as I can tell. The first is that it puts the Wave farther away during the Classic Era, so PCs aren't tripping over it trying to visit Gashikan. At lightspeed it has already taken Lair and is gnawing away at the Julian Protectorate by 1105. At the new speed it is still beyond most of charted space in 1105, and largely unknown to all but the Zhodani.
The other reason is to get past it and move on. At lightspeed it takes a thousand years to churn through the known map.
Increasing both the speed and the lethality makes it a factor to be reckoned with. The slow and slightly annoying 1248 version is basically a non-issue if you know its coming, and you will. As an FTL phenomenon you literally can't see it coming without a network of advanced observation points to locate where it has been and plot your doom date.
MJD's opinion is understandable, largely because his version of the Wave is a non-issue. Making it an issue, and a fast moving one, brings new urgency and tragedy to the 1200-1248 events.
-The battle at Vland with Lucan is at the worst possible time, coming just ahead of the Wave's arrival there. A world that might have prepared for the disruption of the Wave and even aided others is now a wreck.
-Kirur falls to the Wave about the same time Vland does, making the frenzy of the Dominate even more vengeful.
-The Lucans, being "personally" immune, will likely use the Wave both tactically and strategically during both wars. Being able to back your opponents up against a literal wall has advantages.
-The corridor for the Dominate War gets thinner as the war progresses, as the Wave reaches and begins to cross Core, Fornast, Ley and Gateway.
-The adopted homeworld of the Thunder is staring at the Wave up close by the end of the War. So are Capital and the nascent Fourth Imperium.
-The Regency and its related states behind the Claw are still digging out from the passing of the Wave in 1248, but the Wave has now passed the Marches completely and is headed toward the Ihatei in Trojan Reach. If any part of the 1248 material risks widespread invalidation, the 1248 Marches is it.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The Empress Wave in TNE was nowhere near as dangerous as the 1248 or the MGT retcon. Dave Nilsen even provided an embryonic matrix for determining its effects during his extended Q&A.
Marc et al sped the wave up because they didn't talk to Dave Nilsen or Frank Chadwick about the original intent and thus went with fanon. I have a sneaky feeling that any future novels in MWM's Agent series will involve dealing with the threat posed by the wave (I have long suggested a means to do this that is now achievable via T5 technology). We now know a little about the black ships threat, so that leaves the wave and once other major disaster for Bland and his successors to deal with...
Marc et al sped the wave up because they didn't talk to Dave Nilsen or Frank Chadwick about the original intent and thus went with fanon. I have a sneaky feeling that any future novels in MWM's Agent series will involve dealing with the threat posed by the wave (I have long suggested a means to do this that is now achievable via T5 technology). We now know a little about the black ships threat, so that leaves the wave and once other major disaster for Bland and his successors to deal with...
daryen
SOC-14 1K
Well, that is kinda a bummer for me personally. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Still quite a disappointment.
Too bad they're now all dead.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I take it back somewhat. As long as there are Zhodani refugees, I can save the Spinward States (from a story perspective). Things work a bit differently, and I can't save the Vargr, but I can save the Spinward States themselves.
The reason is because they have two advantages no other area has:
- They have functioning governments. In particular, the Regency itself, but also the Darrians and the local Zhodani.
- They have a warning and actionable data.
They have tons of warning. With millions and millions of refugees, they have all the warning they need. With the ability to jump over the wave, they will be able to see the effects. This means they can plan and deal with the results. They can't save everyone or even most, but they can definitely build and plan so that they can quickly reconstruct. And with judicious jumping, they can save their entire fleets.
It is entirely possible for the Regency and Darrians and local Zhodani to massively blunt the effects. And given their cohesive governments, they have plenty of time to do so. In fact, they should be able to weather it better than pretty much anyone else.
The reason is because they have two advantages no other area has:
- They have functioning governments. In particular, the Regency itself, but also the Darrians and the local Zhodani.
- They have a warning and actionable data.
They have tons of warning. With millions and millions of refugees, they have all the warning they need. With the ability to jump over the wave, they will be able to see the effects. This means they can plan and deal with the results. They can't save everyone or even most, but they can definitely build and plan so that they can quickly reconstruct. And with judicious jumping, they can save their entire fleets.
It is entirely possible for the Regency and Darrians and local Zhodani to massively blunt the effects. And given their cohesive governments, they have plenty of time to do so. In fact, they should be able to weather it better than pretty much anyone else.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
I do need to know the lethality and "infection" rate.
But, avoiding it should be relatively straightforward:
- Jump over the wave. The fact that it is faster actually makes it easier.
- Lots and lots of low berths. Just freeze everything and everyone you can.
And with it only triple the speed, they still have a lot of preparation time available to manage it.
But, avoiding it should be relatively straightforward:
- Jump over the wave. The fact that it is faster actually makes it easier.
- Lots and lots of low berths. Just freeze everything and everyone you can.
And with it only triple the speed, they still have a lot of preparation time available to manage it.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 5K
Empress Wave = Deus ex Psionica
You're talking an unspeakable amount of lift capacity, it has to be at least J2, and you also need that capacity to bring the people back.
You also have all of the issues of dealing with the untold number of deaths and disabled, across the entirety of the SM.
Despite having a lot of time to prepare, you don't have much time to execute.
And the operation has to be ongoing for decades, tearing up populations and ripping people from their homes.
It's just a disaster applied differently than the wave.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
You misunderstood the low berth thing.
The jumping is just to save the ships and their crew/passengers. The low berths don't go anywhere. They don't need to. They just freeze in place. If they are frozen, they should be immune to the effects. So you jump the technicians around, but just freeze the population in place. It is still an unspeakable number of low berths and the systems to power them. It would taken massive facilities. But it is doable. They would probably need to do "super emergency" low berths that can handle a dozen (or dozens) instead of just four. That would allow many more to be frozen than might otherwise be.
Then, for animals and plants, freeze embryos and seeds. After waking up, just eliminate the mutants and reseed and restock. Again, it depends on how much of animals and plants are destroyed by the Wave. If it is no more than 50%, it should be completely recoverable. I assume some plants would become unkillable spreading monstrosities, meaning their worlds are lost. But that shouldn't happen most of the time. Most of the time, the mutants would just be completely removed and the lands reseeded.
And, yes, you will lose a LOT of people. Many will refuse. Many frozen ones will fail to awaken. Some systems will fail or be sabotaged. It is a solution fraught with uncertainty and rife with danger. But it is still better than certain death, and will preserve civilization overall. Some worlds will be lost. Most will be preserved.
The success rate would likely still be better than trying to survive the Virus.
Worlds too low-tech to mass produce freezing facilities are completely screwed. But, quite frankly, Interstellar society works just fine without them. Worlds that can produce the freezing facilities, even those with massive populations, should be able to weather the storm. Even if half of the low berths fail, that still leaves more than enough to resume society afterwards.
The jumping is just to save the ships and their crew/passengers. The low berths don't go anywhere. They don't need to. They just freeze in place. If they are frozen, they should be immune to the effects. So you jump the technicians around, but just freeze the population in place. It is still an unspeakable number of low berths and the systems to power them. It would taken massive facilities. But it is doable. They would probably need to do "super emergency" low berths that can handle a dozen (or dozens) instead of just four. That would allow many more to be frozen than might otherwise be.
Then, for animals and plants, freeze embryos and seeds. After waking up, just eliminate the mutants and reseed and restock. Again, it depends on how much of animals and plants are destroyed by the Wave. If it is no more than 50%, it should be completely recoverable. I assume some plants would become unkillable spreading monstrosities, meaning their worlds are lost. But that shouldn't happen most of the time. Most of the time, the mutants would just be completely removed and the lands reseeded.
And, yes, you will lose a LOT of people. Many will refuse. Many frozen ones will fail to awaken. Some systems will fail or be sabotaged. It is a solution fraught with uncertainty and rife with danger. But it is still better than certain death, and will preserve civilization overall. Some worlds will be lost. Most will be preserved.
The success rate would likely still be better than trying to survive the Virus.
Worlds too low-tech to mass produce freezing facilities are completely screwed. But, quite frankly, Interstellar society works just fine without them. Worlds that can produce the freezing facilities, even those with massive populations, should be able to weather the storm. Even if half of the low berths fail, that still leaves more than enough to resume society afterwards.
