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Sell me on T20

Golan2072

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I am considering to buy the T20 rulebook; however, I have some reservations. Is this version of Traveller truely worth its price, or the time I'll have to invest in order to learn it (I'm familiar with the general D20 system, though)?

And a few points I'd like to know about:
1) Does T20 ground combat feel like D&D combat, or more like CT ground combat? How well are firearms handled?
2) Is the inclusion of Character Classes restrictive to Chargen (as it was in D&D 2E and to a lesser degree in 3E)?
3) How fighter-friendly is the space combat system? Is it a small-ship system such as CT or a big-bad-battleship system such as High Guard?
4) How modifyable are the rules? how many of them are setting-specificf to the OTU?
5) How well integrated are the design and combat systems? can you shoot a fighter with your PGMP-12, or an enemy tank with your ship's lasers? could you design ground vehicles and robots?
6) Does the game have an integral "traveller" atmosphere rather than the (ultra-heroic, beer'n'pretzel) D&D3E one?

Thanks in advance.
 
T20 is based upon the older D&D 3.0 rules, so there are some changes. But no more than any of the other D20 based games. To answer your specific questions:

1) Firearms are handled better than the standard D20 because there are fewer hit points. The damage system is more complex than the standard D20 system, but it add more of the standard CT feel of deadly combat.

2) The T20 classes are very generic, and it is encouraged to multiclass. Much more so than the D20 rules. It would be only a short step to a completely classless system.

3) The T20 starship combat system is based on High Guard.

4) The rules can be modified as much as any D20 ruleset can be. There are a few setting specific rules, but they are mostly for things that the base D20 does not cover.

5) Yes to all of these. You can shoot starships with handguns, or attack them with swords. You can fire your starship weapons at people on the ground (smoking boots...). The design system covers everything from fly sized spybots to million ton starships.

6) From experience of the Traveller systems, T20 is on the high side of dramtic scale, but certianly less than the ultra-heroic D&D experience.
 
But T20 still uses lots of funny shaped dice... ;)
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I mostly agree with tjonselo, however,

5) Robots are possible to design, but require some rulings on specific aspects that are not definitively covered. Basically it feels like most of the rules are there. Certainly the design system covers vehicles very well, and that includes robot chasis's, some kludges are required for robotic skills and abilities.

6) Theoretically a large calibre pistol can annihalate a dreadnaught in a single shot, though functionally that is unlikely (as it should be). The possibility of rapid death at the hands of anyone shooting at you tends to add a moment of pause tending to restrict the dramatic to more prosaic concerns.
 
Oh and combat tends to be a little tedious. Not as bad as DnD in some ways, worse in others. Each combat round takes longer for this reason, though there tends not to be as many.
 
To be honest, this is what I'd do, if I were buying T20 stuff right now:

1. Join the moot for around $15 and get the playtest rules for the player's handbook. This gets you everything you need to make a character and equip him. It also has the combat rules. It does not have design sequences or prebuilt vehicles or ships. It is also missing general starship operations information, trading, etc.

2. If you need some prebuilt vehicles or ships, use third-party or fan based ones, or buy the appropriate TAs, or make a guess on conversions from older Traveller versions.

3. You're still missing rules for general spaceship operations, trading, etc. Use the rules from whatever edition of traveller you like best for these.

4. In a few decades when the corrected or revised or whatever T20 book comes out, you can buy it.

The reason I'm against purchasing the main book is that it has way too many errors and inconsistancies for a book that expensive. I feel like every other page has errata penciled in on it.
 
The second printing of the T20 rule book has been corrected from the first print run.

Bruce Runnels
The Man Behind the Curtain
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I am considering to buy the T20 rulebook; however, I have some reservations. Is this version of Traveller truely worth its price, or the time I'll have to invest in order to learn it (I'm familiar with the general D20 system, though)?
If you like and enjoy d20, then T20 will be mostly a breeze.

Pros:
</font>
  • Very Classic Traveller "feel".</font>
  • d20 Class & Personal Combat mechanics are, basically, used.</font>
  • Combat is more lethal.</font>
  • The Citizens of the Imperium board. Tons of fann support. Ancients of the game are actively posting here, and some are lurking and occasionally post.</font>
  • I like the art in most of the book.</font>
Cons:
</font>
  • Starship Combat leaves a little to be desired, it needs house rules to make it work (fortunately, a great deal of excellent thought has already gone into it right here on CotI).</font>
  • Combat is more lethal.</font>
  • The 2nd Printing of the rulebook is a must (the first had a lot of errata).</font>
  • Some of the rules organization (and/or phraseology) leaves a little to be desired.</font>
My copy of the rules is getting pretty beat up, but all the pages are still inside and it isn't threatening to split down the middle (for which I'm very grateful).
 
Let me take a whack at this one.
All is of course, IMHO.


Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I am considering to buy the T20 rulebook; however, I have some reservations. Is this version of Traveller truely worth its price, or the time I'll have to invest in order to learn it (I'm familiar with the general D20 system, though)?

And a few points I'd like to know about:
1) Does T20 ground combat feel like D&D combat, or more like CT ground combat? How well are firearms handled?
Ground combat is D20 rules at the personal level, however, and this is a big however, due to the fixed lifeblood rating there is little chance to stand up to a point blank shotgun blast without serious body armor no matter what your level is.

It isn't quite as lethal as CT ground combat but IMHO that is a good thing. (In CT if you got hit by virtually any weapon, you went down.)

As for how well firearms are handled. I spent 9 years active duty army. I have fired bows (not in the army), pistols, shotguns, rifles, submachine guns, assault rifles, sniper rifles, light, medium and heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, rocket launchers, missile launchers, handled explosives, trained with auto canons, and called artillery and air strikes. Everything works the way a person with experience with these weapons would expect them to work. (Though there are a couple minor glitches.)


2) Is the inclusion of Character Classes restrictive to Chargen (as it was in D&D 2E and to a lesser degree in 3E)?
I can't answer that question. I never played D&D after EGG left the scene.


3) How fighter-friendly is the space combat system? Is it a small-ship system such as CT or a big-bad-battleship system such as High Guard?
The starship combat works well at small craft level. (Less than 1000 tons. It is when you get to big ships that the system falls apart. (IMHO seriously falls apart.) Though it is fixable without throwing out the whole thing or killing the playability of small ships.


4) How modifyable are the rules? how many of them are setting-specificf to the OTU?
Like any RPG the rules are modifyable. THough if your players are going to look at the rules it is only fair to let them know the changes.
Actually the rules are pretty setting non-specific. However if you want to use starship designs that don't use jump drive or maneuver drive you are writing your own rules. Further if you are going to allow FTL comms you are writing your own rules.

They are so modifyable that the same rules will be used for the Twilight 2000, Traveller 2300, Honor Harrington, and Legacy of Aldenta backgrounds.


5) How well integrated are the design and combat systems? can you shoot a fighter with your PGMP-12, or an enemy tank with your ship's lasers? could you design ground vehicles and robots?
Very well integrated. Though there are a couple of holes with robots and a minor glitch with radiation weapon damage. You can engage all classes of targets with all classes of weapons with fairly predictable, ie expected, results. (A bodypistol is unlikely to do serious harm to a Drednaught and a Starship's weapons are very likely to kill the guy holding the body pistol.



6) Does the game have an integral "traveller" atmosphere rather than the (ultra-heroic, beer'n'pretzel) D&D3E one?

Thanks in advance.
It very much feels like Traveller. Unlike the typical level 14 AD&D character fighting appropiate monsters, combat isn't chipping away against an inexhaustable supply of hitpoints. Getting shot can, and frequently will, kill you. As will getting chopped or carved up. You can kill someone with a dagger or a single shotgun blast. So after their first combat session, win or lose , players, particularily D&D players, tend to get a little more circumspect about rushing into combat. (Especially lethal combat.)

Did I miss any?
 
win or lose , players, particularily D&D players, tend to get a little more circumspect about rushing into combat.
Three little feats that make combat exceedingly deadly. Assasin, Sniper, Dumb Luck. Automatic criticals kill anyone anywhere.

I nearly killed a 12th level PC wearing a flak jacket with a 1st level thug carrying a zip gun in the first shot of combat. Levels don't make you invulnerable, nothing does past legions of fanatic bodyguards in combination with extreme technology.
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
I nearly killed a 12th level PC wearing a flak jacket with a 1st level thug carrying a zip gun in the first shot of combat. Levels don't make you invulnerable, nothing does past legions of fanatic bodyguards in combination with extreme technology.
I had something similar happen with a 3rd level streetpunk hurting a 9th level spec forces guy. Anyone who gets lucky (i.e. rolls a d20) with most weapons will do serious, if not fatal damage to you. Add in Law Level restrictions on the carrying of said weapons, and most PCs don't look for trouble, or restrict themselves to fists if they do (or wear large amounts of armour and have an autodoc for every PC ;) ).

This is particularly the case if you use the optional damage rules for increasingly negative modifiers due to increasingly greater % Lifeblood/Stamina damage (which are standard rules in 2320AD :eek: ).
 
Originally posted by veltyen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />win or lose , players, particularily D&D players, tend to get a little more circumspect about rushing into combat.
Three little feats that make combat exceedingly deadly. Assasin, Sniper, Dumb Luck. Automatic criticals kill anyone anywhere.

I nearly killed a 12th level PC wearing a flak jacket with a 1st level thug carrying a zip gun in the first shot of combat. Levels don't make you invulnerable, nothing does past legions of fanatic bodyguards in combination with extreme technology.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hey don't forget my personal favorite. PMOS (Gunnery) and a Spinal Meson weapon. (Talk about deadly!
)
 
I'd add one thing here that others have overlooked as an advantage for T20. Value for the price.

The Traveller's Handbook costs $44.95 (you can find this cheaper on Amazon.com or ebay, around $30 or so), but for that money you have got all of the basic rules you need to play a d20 science fiction game. IMHO, the two other d20 games which come close to this (d20 Star Wars and d20 Future, I can't say anything about others because I haven't bought and read them) are missing important rules (like world generation) that are needed for play. So to get the complete basic rules needed to run a campaign, you'd have to buy more sourcebooks at a price of $20 - $30 each (this was particularly true with the first edition of the d20 Star Wars game). With T20, you pay once and you have everything you need in a single book.
 
As one of the playtesters....

It is a bit on the cinematic side. It doesn't feel like D&D in space (that's SW-D20), but it does feel like a swashbucklign version fo MT.

It does, however, play well, and provides a good, stable, core of CT-like mechanics for trade, ship and vehicle design, and some other little bits. Combat rules scale nicely between the scales.

It has some problems with ship combat; few of us were really focussed that way. If you like HG, the stats are compatible, so you could use HG instead. With just a little extra math, one can make a much more robust combat system from the extant core. Biggest problem is that levels nearly doubled late on in the process...

It is close enough to D20 to be easy to teach to D20 geeks. The differences are in Armor, and in how prevalent multi-classing is. The T20 Lifeblood/stamina system is directly comparable to (but different from) SW Vitality/HP.

More importantly, as previous posters have said, it's an all-in-one. If you find it for $30, grab it!

It's fairly setting-light.

It's not what I had hoped for as a playtester going in... but I am not ashamed of it, and find it both playable and useful.

And it turned out FAR better than I expected it to.

Oh, and there are lots of sidebars with options for customizing to fit other TU flavors.
 
I think I'm quite convinced. Now all I have to do is to find a way to order T20 from somewhere that ships to Israel (IIRC Amazon.com doesn't); I also need a way to pay for it, and I have no international credit card (Paypal would be optimal). Ofcourse, if someone DOES import T20 to my war-torn Middle-Eastern hellhole, that will make things much faster and easier (local cheque/cash, short delivery times, little or no shipping costs)
 
I'd love to send you one from my store's inventory, but, contrary to Hunter's claim, we cannot get any copies from our distributors thus we have none in our inventory. :(


Glen
 
Originally posted by Gaming Glen:
I'd love to send you one from my store's inventory, but, contrary to Hunter's claim, we cannot get any copies from our distributors thus we have none in our inventory. :(


Glen
Which distributors?

You can always order directly from us of course ;)

Hunter
 
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I think I'm quite convinced. Now all I have to do is to find a way to order T20 from somewhere that ships to Israel (IIRC Amazon.com doesn't); I also need a way to pay for it, and I have no international credit card (Paypal would be optimal). Ofcourse, if someone DOES import T20 to my war-torn Middle-Eastern hellhole, that will make things much faster and easier (local cheque/cash, short delivery times, little or no shipping costs)
We take PayPal, or you can send us a check or money order. We'll happily ship to Israel!

Hunter
 
Originally posted by hunter:
We take PayPal, or you can send us a check or money order. We'll happily ship to Israel!
Hunter
Once I'll set up a PayPal account, I'll order from you
Don't worry. Btw, a cash order would be problematic - I only have local currency. It will mean that I'll have to exchange them for US$, which means a hefty comission; Paypal would be better.
 
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