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Serenity and Traveller RPGs

Long-time reader, first-time contributor . . .

Just curious if anyone out there runs both Traveller and Serenity games? While I realize that one is more of a space opera-type (Serenity), and the other is founded in 'hard' science (Traveller), I'm trying to get my head around two comlpetely different concepts...

First, the size of the ships could not be more diametrically opposed, with standard, "run-of-the-mill" Firefly Ships running on average at 2,400 tons (w/a crew (and passengers) of 4 (-6), while a standard 100-ton Scout ship holds a crew of four.

Second, the economics for Traveller, unlike Serenity completely confound me. In Serenity, the same Firefly-class ship will run my crew about 50,000 credits, which, if in used condition could be purchased for 40% of that value. Given the rates for shipping goods, and you're in business. Meanwhile, in Traveller, that Scout Ship will run you MCr27, with a monthly 'mortgage payment' of nearly KCr60 for a period of 480 months! Given the long-trek times, coupled with the meager profits one can yield from moving things across the black, I would be sweating the 15th of each month to make the payments. Does anyone else feel as though the costs associated with ship builds in Traveller should be reduced by say . . . 99%?

Love to hear your thoughts.

FM
 
Long-time reader, first-time contributor . . .
Meanwhile, in Traveller, that Scout Ship will run you MCr27, with a monthly 'mortgage payment' of nearly KCr60 for a period of 480 months! Given the long-trek times, coupled with the meager profits one can yield from moving things across the black, I would be sweating the 15th of each month to make the payments. Does anyone else feel as though the costs associated with ship builds in Traveller should be reduced by say . . . 99%?

FM
You are supposed to be sweating. It's a hook for the gamesmaster. It's easy to fix it if you don't like it. Make cargo easy and cheap, sell it for lots more at the next planet.

But it's traditional Traveller (for merchant characters to sweat the mortgage) just like dying in character creation.
 
I've not run Serenity (tho' I have a copy)...

Serentity tonanges are NOT traveller Displacement Tons. They are likely either the 35ft3 (0.9911m3) nautical displacement ton or 100ft3 (2.8316m3) register tons. The Traveller Displacement Ton (Td) is 13.5m3 (476.75ft3), or 14m3 (494.41ft3), or 500ft3 (14.16m3) by which ruleset one uses (MT, CT/TNE/T4/T20/MGT/HT, GT/GTIW). (See Rowlett's Dictionary of Units

Which means that 2400 Serentity tons could be as low as 169.90Td or up to 484.85 Td. Judging from crew sizes, cargo sizes, and rough passenger capacity, the serenity herself is pretty darned close to a 400 Td Fat Trader... and use of gross register tons for the whole ship. For comparison, the Fishing Vessel Northwestern (shown on Deadliest Catch) is 190 Gross Tons, and has 75RT of cargo... (85 tons mass of crab...)

The serenity carries about the same cargo load as a Traveller Far Trader (which comes in at about MCr50) but can only make its new payments on speculative trade (Or by financing less than the normal 80% of price).

Keep in mind, the list price in Serenity is for a used ship, probably quite beat up, and presumes lower costs overall.

The ship trade system in Serenity for T&C is pretty minimal. There are, however 6 different trade systems for Traveller: CTBk3, CTBk7/MT/TNE/T4, T20, GT, GTFT, MGT. Note that the CTBk7, MT, TNE, and T4 systems are all the same core, some have slight variations, but are fundamentally all the same mechanics save the details tables. Also note that only one of these is really an economic simulation driven mechanic: GTFT. Plus many ship building systems (CTBk2, CTBk5, MT, TNE-FF&S, TNE-BL, T4-FF&S2, T4-QSDS, T4-SSDS, T20, MGT-CRB, MGT-Bk2, GT, GTIW, HT)...

So which set of trade rules is it you're comparing to?
 
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I'm possibly more confused than before . . .

aramis,

While I thank you for your comprehensive response, I'm in the Air Force and didn't quite catch the beginning of your response ~ differences in Displacement Tons . . . or the end, where the number of acronyms might have exceeded the legal limit in a thread.

I'm trying to find a rough equivalency, given some common factors ~ fuel, hull, power, etc,. from each game system to see if I can draw some conclusions as to costs. For instance, a reduction of costs by 99%, brings a 300-ton Corsair down to about 960,000 credits, or 2,000 Cr/month for 480 months. Or more realistically, 4,000/month for 20 years (240 months).

zonk,

I appreciate your comments ~ made me laugh out loud, but if I wanted to do something with that much realism, I'd stay at work ; )

FM
 
Any such reduction breaks the economics, FM. The economics in Traveller are designed to keep merchants on the raw edge of breakeven while financed. Dividing prices by 10, without reducing costs by similar amounts, isn't going to solve much. Fuel alone is 2/3 as much as payments for J1 merchants in most traveller editions.

And serenity is the unrealisitc one... taking a look at used Fishing Vessels for sale (http://www.maritimesales.com/Fishing Vessels.htm shows prices in the millions of dollars; typically between K$1 and K$10 per registry ton. Which would translate to Traveller between Cr:200 and KCr2 per ton for traveller Td. only off by a factor of 10, presuming the costs for boats are not a factor of 10 lower than starships.

Plus, the Serenity credit is also about 5x the value of the Traveller credit ( 1 Serenity Credit is Approx. US$25 in 2005, vs the approximately US$5 of the Traveller Credit.)

Functionally, "Tonnage" is a meaningless term. There are literally a dozen different meanings, here are the top 8.
Displacement Ton (of Water): 35 cubic feet
Displacement Ton (of Hydrogen): about 490 cubic feet. Used in Traveller.
Registry Ton: 100 cubic feet of cargo space
Gross Ton: 100 cubic feet of total interior volume
Ton, Short: 2000 pounds
Ton, Long: 2200 Pounds
Ton, metric: 1000kg, 1Mg
Ton, Thrust: 9800kilogram-meters-per-second-per-second.

Serenity rates in gross tons. Traveller in Hydrogen Displacement Tons. They measure volume. Serenity's 2400 Gross Tons are about 480 Hydrogen Displacement Tons. Traveller rates in Hydrogen Displacement. In short, your comparison of the 2400GRT Serenity (P,N,E,S) to the scout ship is to a ship of about 500 Gross Tons and 2 crew (P, E)... instead of to the comparable 2000 Gross Ton, Crew 5, cargo-hauler Type R (P,N,E,M,S).

As for the acroynms... they are all pretty standard around here... it boils down to this: we can't help you understand the traveller econ system without knowing which one you've been looking at. And for me, any Traveller trade system (except GTFT) is better than the non-system in Serenity... simply because it provides a system rather than leaving it to GM fiat.
 
I appreciate your comments ~ made me laugh out loud, but if I wanted to do something with that much realism, I'd stay at work ; )

Reminds me of when I took my first job doing commercial design work. After a few weeks, my managers and some co-workers asked me how I was settling in to the new job. My reply:

"I love this job! If I screw up, nobody dies!"

As to the ship size differences, at the risk of being only partially accurate:

Traveller displacement tons are not actually tons, they're a measurement of volume, like liters, cubic yards, or the dry pint. There are rule of thumb factors for converting this to a mass unit for a ship by assuming an overall density for a ship.

Traveller rules have given slightly different values for the dTon in different versions, and different conversion factors can be used, too.

A "ton" (dTon) in Traveller is about 500 cubic feet or about 14 cubic meters of volume.

To convert Serenity's mass tons to something approximating Traveller dTons, divide by 5.

As to prices, a credit ain't a credit. Any more than a dollar is a pound or a yu'an. I'd look at some prices on common commodities and come up with a conversion factor between Traveller and Serenity credits as a point of comparison, then decide what economic elements I want to influence my game.

If I want the characters on the hook for monthly payments or on the run from the repo man (standard Traveller), I'd price ships high with a lot of financing.

If I want the characters starving under the costs of operations and maintenance (ala Firefly), I'd make the ship cheaper, require a lot of sweat equity, and make every fuel and repair depot some scoundrel's crooked little empire.
 
If I want the characters on the hook for monthly payments or on the run from the repo man (standard Traveller), I'd price ships high with a lot of financing.

If I want the characters starving under the costs of operations and maintenance (ala Firefly), I'd make the ship cheaper, require a lot of sweat equity, and make every fuel and repair depot some scoundrel's crooked little empire.

What he said. I've run Serenity and played Traveller, in both games, the average crew is worried about paying for something, and the price of a new ship is way out of their league. In my last Serenity game, the players were mighty happy to be able to buy a ship out from under the scrapper's torch, and even that took all of their dough, a good die roll, and a big pile of plot points.

I wouldn't start comparing ship design systems across different games. That way lies madness.
 
I appreciate the input

Putraack, saundby, and aramis,

Thanks for your input on this ~ again, I don't want to belabor the point, but quite honestly, while the tension derived from making the monthly payments (or paying for provisions, supplies, and/or other essential items) provides a great backdrop to the "adventure" in either setting, I really don't want it to be the overriding focus for the player-characters. Having read the "Trade" section in the Traveller Book (by the way, it's the Mongoose Edition), ol' Erik manages to make a profit on gems and petrochemicals for a whopping KCr113 ~ only KCr148 shy of what he needs to make this month's payment!

Again, I realize there are many who find that level of angst exciting and riveting . . . but I honestly want both scenarios (Traveller and Serenity) to move past the mundane and into the realm of Adventures.

Thanks,
FM
 
That monthly payment is also typically made with 2 trade cycles, not one. If Eric can pull off even 2/3rds as much the next jump, he's made the payment, paid for fuel, and salaries, and maintenance.

It's a level of detail that the Serenity game ignores.

For MGT, the pricing is in fact set such that it's hard but doable to make a profit without speculation; the shipping costs were set based upon a cost per ton to operate that I demonstrated in playtest.
 
Again, I realize there are many who find that level of angst exciting and riveting . . . but I honestly want both scenarios (Traveller and Serenity) to move past the mundane and into the realm of Adventures.

The easiest way to do that is to simply ignore the bean-counting. Either set up a scenario where the PCs are not actually in the trade business (e.g. they may be colonists, or explorers) or state from the start that their ship has already been paid off.
 
Again, I realize there are many who find that level of angst exciting and riveting . . . but I honestly want both scenarios (Traveller and Serenity) to move past the mundane and into the realm of Adventures.


Fox,

You're failing to comprehend Traveller on a fundamental level, which is understandable considering that you're confusing Serenity with Traveller and are only familiar with Mongoose's rather substandard version of the game.

Making monthly payments never were the end all and be all of Traveller. Instead, monthly payments were a built-in hook specifically designed to lift the game from the mundane and into the realm of adventure.

The size of the ships, their monthly operating budgets, and their expected monthly incomes were all carefully balanced to push the players towards not only speculative trading but other risky - and thus adventurous - activities. If Eneri, Joe, and Zack could make their "nut" schlepping widgets and passengers between Efate and Regina, they wouldn't be working the streets of startown looking for their next big score.

Simply put, that monthly mortgage payment is the doorway and not a barrier to adventure.

That being said, Traveller creators took care to provide other avenues for play apart from the We're Going To Get Repo-ed If We Don't Make Our Nut, So Let's Take That Charter Offered By the Crooked Archeologist trope. And, because, the basic game was built around mortgage payments, nearly all of the these other avenues involve fiddling with mortgage payments in some manner. Here's a brief list:

Old Ship: The mortgage has been paid off sometime in the past and the ship is now clear. Wise GMs balance the lack of a mortgage with increased maintenance requirements, however, as it's always smart of have some sort of a "hold" on the PCs.

Other Owners: The mortgage is being paid by someone else. someone who the players are working for. One example of this is the classic Subsidized Merchant campaign for which a specific ship design exists. Others would include working for trading companies, megacorp subsidiaries, or even uniformed services like the Scout or Navy. The fact that the players will be beholden to a third party gives the GM a nice bit of control over the course of any adventure.

On The Lam: In this instance, the players have simply stopped making payments and have (hopefully) bugged out for parts unknown. GM control in this circumstance appears in the form of repo men and bounty hunters, both of which make for nice long term "villains" in your campaign.

As you can see, with just a little thought about various ways to lessen or remove mortgage payments, a GM can trade one hook for another and thus skew his campaign towards a situation he and his players will be more likely to enjoy.

One final word about Mongoose Traveller, or MgT, and Serenity.

First, Traveller has been around for over thirty years and there are many more sourcebooks available for the game than just those published by Mongoose. In fact, Mongoose has yet to publish the definitive version of any of Traveller's many aspects; aliens, trading, warfare, exploration, empire building, and so on, and instead has produced rather shoddy examples of the same. Mongoose's sole claim is that it's materials are new and somewhat relatively easier to find.

If I were starting a campaign however, I would look at both the FFE's Reprints and the SJGame GURPS:Traveller line. You can purchase a CD-ROM from FFE which contains nearly the entirety of Classic Traveller, or CT, for about the price of two Mongoose splat books. With that sole CD-ROM, you'll have all the materials that originally set-out Traveller's style and background. Similarly, you can purchase .pdf versions of GURPS:Traveller, or GT, online and get what is believed to be the definitive economic and exploration systems for Traveller in GT:Far Trader and GT:First In. Nothing Mongoose has produced and, sadly going by what they've published so far, nothing Mongoose will produce can match GT:FT or GT:FI.

The MgT RPG system is serviceable enough so, if you take the time to apply good sourcebooks to that system, you should have the beginnings of a good game.

Firefly and it's movie Serenity are wonderfully evocative and it's a shame we'll never get to see just what their creator had planned for them. While Mr. Whedon has all but stated he was inspired by Traveller when developing Firefly/Serenity, we need to remember that he was inspired by Traveller and was not using Traveller.

So far, I've found that set theory is the best way to get this idea across. While the Traveller set and the Firefly/Serenity set do intersect, neither is a subset of the other. We've had well-meaning, but poorly informed, people arriving at COTI assuming that Firefly/Serenity is Traveller and, more strangely, that Traveller is Firefly/Serenity despite predating it by over a quarter century. One recent poster actually stated that Traveller had a "western feel" to it thanks to their confusion over this issue.

There are portions of each setting that are explicitly at odds with the other; the FTL comms in Firefly/Serenity are just one example. You can use portions of Traveller to play Firefly/Serenity, you cannot use Traveller straight out of the box to do the same.

Good luck with your campaigns and please let us know how they turn out. :)


Regards,
Bill
 
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The easiest way to do that is to simply ignore the bean-counting. Either set up a scenario where the PCs are not actually in the trade business (e.g. they may be colonists, or explorers) or state from the start that their ship has already been paid off.

Or to have the ship be on a subsidy contract (where the subsidy holder takes half the profit instead of payments), or property of a line (where the crew are simply paid operatives), or a naval auxiliary (where the crew are naval irregulars). Or to not even bother with a ship; many traveller campaigns are not ship based.

In any case, much of the stress in the Firefly episodes is the crunch to keep up the LS costs, maintenance, and fuel. Yes, it's differently proportioned to Traveller... especially since the Serenity appears to have been bought for cash on the barrel-head... but Fuel and LS seem to be pretty high in the show. I was sorely disappointed by the lack of a playable trade system (especially considering the design team) in the Serenity RPG. (It's got some solid advice for running a trade-as-backdrop game, but not a trade-in-the-forefront game.)
 
I've only read the Serenity book before, but I've listened to enough Serenity/firefly podcasts enough to know that the Serenity system has one major flaw in it: it does not take the players all that long (relatively speaking) to get out of their debt hole. This quickly takes people away from one of the core flavor of the show (namely constantly being poor and on the fringes of society). Some work arounds have been to increase the cost of the ship, make an additional monthly payment for things like food, ammo, etc. or just take ~75% of their earnings every few months (as agreed upon by gm and players).
 
Guys I think there is one other item you are all overlooking

Serenity ships are not jump capable and thus "more efficient" and "cheaper".

In traveller if you converted half the jump drive tonnage to m-drive and the other half to extra cargo and similarly adjust the fuel tankage you get a ship on serenity's principles.

without the space and cost of the jump drive related stuff the ship should be a lot more reasonably priced and lower crew requirements as well

to duplicate the serenity "universe" scatter say 40 earth standard worlds in various orbits around the same sun and share out about 20 billion people between them with those closest to the star having lions share of the population

now your traveller campaign should come closer to serenity (from what I understand of serenity anyway)
 
to duplicate the serenity "universe" scatter say 40 earth standard worlds in various orbits around the same sun and share out about 20 billion people between them with those closest to the star having lions share of the population


Peter,

I think the less we look at the astrography of Firefly/Serenity 'Verse the better. ;)

now your traveller campaign should come closer to serenity (from what I understand of serenity anyway)

Exactly. You can't use Traveller to play in a Firefly/Serenity setting without making certain changes. Both are separate sets, intersecting sets, but separate sets.


Regards,
Bill
 
Actually, Peter, the firefly/serenity verse has 3 drives per ship... a power plant, a normal space thrust system (also used for landing), and some form of high-speed drive that appears (from the way it looks on screen, and how she flies) to be a displacement drive with constant speed.

Just call the 2nd the maneuver drive, and the third the jump drive... and just change the scale.

And keep in mind: the prices in the serenity RPG don't seem terribly well grounded in the shows. We do know KACr20 is some big amount, but from the show, we don't know that that will put a down on a ship... we know that it took Mal and Zoe several years of dirty deeds to scrape up the Serenity's cash.

The design team made several assumptions, and those are fun, but given their exchange rate (2005US$25=CrA1), they generally don't make a lot of sense, since less structually involved real world ships have a build cost 3-5 orders of magnitude larger for the same size. And we're talking equivalent to 150-200' wet-naval craft in interior volumes.... So either making hulls is MUCH cheaper, OR the prices are way too low.
 
Thanks again!

Bill, Peter, aramis, and dmccoy,

As a gamer for over 25 years, my friend and I immersed ourselves in the Traveller experience with the original 'black' books, but were quite enamored by the Mongoose version for a number of reasons...not least of which was the robust ship creation and development section which didn't require a background in both engineering and physics (see MegaTraveller) or the insanely complex combat sections found in 2300 A.D.

Again, I'm running two completely different campaigns. I'm just stymied by the relative values within each game, and then by extension comparing the two. Thus, a pilot wishing to own his own ship garners 100Cr/month in Serenity could purchase a used Firefly in about 500 months, while it would take a pilot in Traveller, earning a whopping 6,000 credits/month a staggering 10000 months to pay-off the ship. Again, my point in asknig the question has nothing to do with trying to run a Serenity-type adventure in Traveller or vice versa, but simply to question the economics (which I studied extensively in college) of Traveller vis-a-vis the costs of spaceships.

Thank you all for your insights.

FM
 
As a gamer for over 25 years...


Fox's Master,

Ooops. My apologies then.

When you wrote that you couldn't understand Aramis' explanation of displacement tons and when you didn't recognize the Hobby's many well known acronyms he used, I assumed you were of a "certain age" and had a certain amount of gaming experience. Again, my apologies.

... not least of which was the robust ship creation and development section which didn't require a background in both engineering and physics (see MegaTraveller) or the insanely complex combat sections found in 2300 A.D.

Hmmm, there are other ship building systems and other combat systems beyond the two you mentioned. Furthermore, one of the systems you mention, combat in 2300AD, isn't even part of Traveller.

I can understand wanting both a reasonably new systems for ship building and combat. MgT can provide you with those and, as I suggested, readily obtained materials from other versions can pick up MgT's considerable slack.

I'm just stymied by the relative values within each game, and then by extension comparing the two.

but simply to question the economics (which I studied extensively in college) of Traveller vis-a-vis the costs of spaceships.

Well, I'm sure your economics courses cautioned against comparing apple with oranges because sure mine did. Fretting over relative values in each game is a waste of time because each game presumes very different things within their settings. The settings are different so the costs are different, there's no other reason to ferret out.

Again, I'll point out what you undoubtedly already know: The costs of spaceships in Traveller are meant to keep the players "hooked" by a payment schedule and "pushed" toward certain activities. Those costs are a deliberate design feature and one that Traveller's original creators have remarked upon for decades now. The costs are what they are for a purely meta-game reason.

Have fun with your campaigns and please let us know how they come out.


Regards,
Bill
 
The Serenity of Travelling.

So, I have not read through the entire thread yet, but had to throw in my CrImps 2.

First off thanks, Fox for giving me the lead in to convincing the [VR] to play Traveller, and that is the crew of the Screaming Penny. (they played Serenity, and T5 is waaayyyy more polished than Serenity, but I will give the Serenity folks some points for being able to say that the studio was basically a hindrance to the process, but still.....)

Anyway, for fun and bragging. Yes, making the PCs sweat for cash is great for play. While I admit they were not terribly against doing a deal with him, they really did not get they were out of their league, I had them working for Niska (gosh he's fun to play). :devil:

Oh, yeah, the cash strapped Traveller for sure, a great standard adventure hound (or the even worse a Military unit, but then it is orders for them.)
 
I see a lot in common between the two - as long as one does not look at the details of the settings. I suspect a campaign set on a tramp steamer in the '30s might not be dissimilar either (and perfect for Pulp CoC - though you could use Traveller as well with very little effort - now that might be fun) and you could probably tweak it for other settings as well (modern day, an old C-130 (drat, Hammond Innis and others have already done that one), age of sail, steampunk...).

A few years back I started to work up some ideas for a Star Wars campaign and after the first couple of scenarios it would have settled down into the Firefly/Traveller/Tramp Steamer model - with side jobs and complications from the rebels.

I did briefly run Serenity before giving the unfinished and seemingly unedited system up as a bad job. Apart from the system it went fine. Amusingly the plot was one I had originally conceived of for Traveller. Indeed almost any space game I can think of, with a few exceptions (2300, Star Trek) keeps coming back to Traveller.
 
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