• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Ship Operation Costs

Originally posted by Captain Jonah:

To Sea Tyger:

Firstly leaving the money in a bank is boring, you could be out there using that money to explore new worlds, visit new peoples, trade at new and wonderfull markets and of course rob them blind :D

Also when factoring the profit on the ship against the profit from a bank account. You also need to add the interest earned by the ships profit made each year. So since the example Free Trader has paid for itself after 25 years you then have 15 years of 2Mcr per year earning interest.
My point exactly. :D Not to mention simple name recognition...seeing a corporation's ship pull into port every 8 weeks or so is free advertising.

The reason I didn't add in the interest on profit is because 1) it's not part of the starship's revenue stream (i.e., it becomes part of a different revenue stream after becoming profit), and 2) we can't really assume that the profit is just going to sit around and do nothing...it will probably be used for other projects, expanding the market, etc. But you're right, the profit will be used to make further profit down the road.
 
Rancke said:
In fact, operating a jump-1 ship on a regular route is too profitable. Hence my statement that there must be a size and jump number that is right for the canonical freight and passenger rates (because any jump-4+ ship that tries to operate with those rates will speedily go broke). But overall the system is broke. As any system that charges the same for passage/freight on a jump-1 and a jump-6 ship will be.
I think the canonical freight fees achieve the purpose the Empire intends, making trade in the Mains (on J-1 ships) attractive as a commercial proposition and ensuring that the worlds just a little off the beaten track aren't charged unsustainable rates to be serviced by cargo carriers. Charging per jump also means that worlds that are less than maximally profitable in the Mains still get visits and the chance to ship cargo, since J1 ships have to stop by there. So the system appears "broken" from one point of view, but from the p.o.v. of its designers and regulators it works fine.

I didn't manage to get ahold of a copy of GT:FT last week :( But I did get a copy of GT: Starports which was nearly as good.
 
Originally posted by womble:
I think the canonical freight fees achieve the purpose the Empire intends, making trade in the Mains (on J-1 ships) attractive as a commercial proposition and ensuring that the worlds just a little off the beaten track aren't charged unsustainable rates to be serviced by cargo carriers. Charging per jump also means that worlds that are less than maximally profitable in the Mains still get visits and the chance to ship cargo, since J1 ships have to stop by there. So the system appears "broken" from one point of view, but from the p.o.v. of its designers and regulators it works fine.
First of all, what Empire? These rates supposedly applies anywhere in the Traveller universe. So the basic economics are not mandated by any interstellar entity.

Secondly, it won't work the way you think. Why would making it two to three times more expensive to carry freight and passengers one parsec make trade more attractive? If anything, backwater systems will be bypassed because people can get their cargoes moved by jump-2 and jump-3 ships much cheaper than by jump-1 ships. Why pay Cr2000 to get you goods moved 2 parsecs when you can get them moved for Cr1000 on a jump-2 ship? So you actually cut down on the amount of trade a backwater world gets, because they will only be able to import stuff that is worth paying Cr1000 per dT to import, instead of the Cr4-500/dT that is the true cost.

Thirdly, it doesn't work even as an imposed rule for several reasons: 1) It can't be enforced. If I want to carry someone's goods for Cr900 per jump, all I have to do is to formally buy if from him and then sell it to the consignee for a 900 credit profit. Technically, I carried it as speculative freight, so it wouldn't be covered by the rule. Contrariwise, if I have a jump-3 ship and wish to charge someone 2000 credit to carry his goods 3 parsecs, I just use the same buy/sell dodge. And since his alternative is to pay a jump-1 freighter 3000 credits to get the goods there three times slower, he'll pay it. 2) High-jump ships can't make a living with those rates.


Hans
 
Hi Hans

Originally posted by rancke:
First of all, what Empire?
Good point. Must admit I've only been considering trade in a regulated environment. Out where there's no SPA things will "realistically" be very different. They might be more near to similar where there's an SPA-analogue.


Secondly, it won't work the way you think...two to three times more expensive to carry freight and passengers...If anything, backwater systems will be bypassed because people can get their cargoes moved by jump-2 and jump-3 ships much cheaper than by jump-1 ships...
How I think it can work:
</font>
  1. J1 ships are the most economical to operate</font>
  2. Therefore J1 ships will be the most common</font>
  3. J1 ships still engage in speculative trade because some people want to get rich quick rather than work a comfortable 40 years</font>
  4. Not all best markets are 1 parsec from their source</font>
  5. If the hold's not full of speculative goods, why not top it off with standard cargo and get paid for delivering it to the low-pop, low-tech, low-industry world between here and your destination, while you're refilling the tanks and stretching your legs?</font>

Thirdly, it doesn't work even as an imposed rule for several reasons: 1) It can't be enforced.
It doesn't need to be enforced if the SPA makes cargo carrying significantly easier. If a freighter captain wants to turn round quickly, the SPA have a cargo ready for him, on the apron almost. Finding a client to pay non standard prices would be as involved as acquiring a speculative cargo and carry the risk of it being a terrible scam for getting rid of useless goods. It's easier for the sender, too; they don't have to hang around waiting for a vessel heading to the destination they're sending to. Sure, a Broker could do all this, but the SPA can do it cheaper and more conveniently because they have all the facilities on hand.

Contrariwise, if I have a jump-3 ship and wish to charge someone 2000 credit to carry his goods 3 parsecs...
That's Priority cargo, isn't it?

High-jump ships can't make a living with those rates.
Isn't the R3 Subsidized Liner a J-3 ship? It's probably only subsidised in Imperial space, while it sticks to the route it's been assigned. I agree: fast ships can't make a living dealing in standard cargo. But they are excellent at speculative trading; they have a much wider choice of market for their Merchant to Market Analyse with a reasonable expectation of prices being in the predicted range by the time you get there.

Again, the uneconomic nature of fast ships means they will be rare and the Imperium will have less difficulty maintaining its near-monopoly on fast information services. Only MegaCorps and other large Empires can afford to keep fast couriers on permanent duty.
 
Originally posted by womble:
J1 ships are the most economical to operate
Economic for whom? For the consigners it is only most economic for transporting stuff 1 parsec and then only if the ship is allowed to charge the correct amount. For long distances jump-3 is the most economic, followed by jump-2 and jump-4.

Therefore J1 ships will be the most common
Only across one-parsec routes. For greater ranges jump-2 and jump-3 will be more economic. And you cetainly won't change that by artificially inflating the cost of jump-1.

J1 ships still engage in speculative trade because some people want to get rich quick rather than work a comfortable 40 years
What a tramp ship can realistically charge depends on what their established rivals, the regular freighters, charge.

Not all best markets are 1 parsec from their source
And in those cases jump-2 and jump-3 is more economic (and faster) than jump-1. But artificially inflating the cost of jump-1 freight is only going to make it worse.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Thirdly, it doesn't work even as an imposed rule for several reasons: 1) It can't be enforced.
It doesn't need to be enforced if the SPA makes cargo carrying significantly easier. If a freighter captain wants to turn round quickly, the SPA have a cargo ready for him, on the apron almost.</font>[/QUOTE]They don't. That's not how the rules describe the process. To get a new cargo a tramp ship has to scrounge around for five days. Days that their regularly scheduled rivals won't have to waste because they will have a factor in each port doing the job you claim the SPA does, but which, in fact, it does not.

Finding a client to pay non standard prices would be as involved as acquiring a speculative cargo and carry the risk of it being a terrible scam for getting rid of useless goods. It's easier for the sender, too; they don't have to hang around waiting for a vessel heading to the destination they're sending to.
It shouldn't be non-standard prices and hanging around waiting for a vessel heading to the destination is precisely what those senders that employ free traders do.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Contrariwise, if I have a jump-3 ship and wish to charge someone 2000 credit to carry his goods 3 parsecs...
That's Priority cargo, isn't it?</font>[/QUOTE]I don't know. What is priority cargo and how does it differ from standard cargo?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />High-jump ships can't make a living with those rates.
Isn't the R3 Subsidized Liner a J-3 ship?</font>[/QUOTE]What if it is? Not all jump-3 ships are subsidized and there are canonical jump-4 liners too. The Tukera Longliner is a dead loss if it only charges the canonical ticket prices.

Again, the uneconomic nature of fast ships means they will be rare and the Imperium will have less difficulty maintaining its near-monopoly on fast information services. Only MegaCorps and other large Empires can afford to keep fast couriers on permanent duty.
A near-monopoly on information is useless. They will have to be rare to the point of non-existence to give the Imperium a real monopoly. With 13 megacorporations and the IN couriers, at least a score of corporations and agencies in each subsector will have information at jump-6 speeds. And that's assuming no sector-wide news agency invests in a courier network of its own. What's the use of being one of several hundred people who gets the news first?


And you still haven't addressed the point that if someone wants his caviar delivered from Terra by jump-6 freighter, the only way that is going to happen is if he pays considerably more than Cr1000/dT/jump (It's been a long while since I did the calculations, but IIRC the cost for jump-6 freight is around Cr36,000/dT/jump (i.e. around Cr6,000/dT/parsec)). And there's no way the Imperium can force him not to pay what it costs if he wants to.


Hans
 
Okay, I developed a 741-ton unarmed Jump-3 "spaceliner"-type starship. The ship, which I'm calling the Type 30-Model 1 (t30-m1), carries 21 high pass, 24 middle pass, 40 low pass and 50 tons of cargo.

Plying the same 24-parsec-long jump-3 route I established in earlier posts along this thread, the spaceliner makes a monthly profit (vs. 1/480 of the original purchase price, assuming the ship is purchased outright) of over 182kCr (or nearly 2200kCr/year). The spaceliner is still not profitable (losing about 434kCr/month vs. 1/480 of the down payment plus the standard monthly payment) when bought with a 20% down payment and 480 monthly payments over 40 years. However, average speculative trade results on the route changes that dramatically.

A note on my speculative trade analysis. What I did was determine the average value of speculative cargo based on sale of that cargo after one jump. Two of the five worlds on the route are Industrial worlds (one Pop-A and one Pop-9), and one is a Poor, Non-Agricultural Pop-8 world. The remaining two are simply Pop-9 worlds, with no other significant classifications. For Pop-9 worlds, the average roll are the 10-99kCr/unit base price range (32%), so I used this as the "average" result on speculative trade rolls. For actual purchase and sale price, I assumed a 10 on the roll and a +2 bonus (based on being able to take 10 on a DC20), and modified it by the trade classification modifiers for each world.

I ended up with an average monthly profit of 543.607kCr for speculative trade. This turns the 434kCr loss into a 109kCr profit for "tramp" merchants (over 1.3MCr annually). While this would not be acceptable for a corporation, I think it's more than acceptable for an independent operator. For corporate interests, the speculative trade numbers increase the monthly profit to over 726kCr (over 8.7MCr annually). Such a corporate spaceliner makes a profit of nearly 350MCr over its 40-year life cycle.

So, it looks like smaller is better for profitability under the T20 starship economics rules.
 
Ok guys I am running my first T20 tomorrow. I played CT years back and T4 some years ago as well.
I read through the rules and I am firm with D20 anyway, since I played other incarnations as well. But Traveller got one heck of a lousy economy system. I looked at the cargo rules and my insides turned.
Here is my point: The examples state that a J3 ship hauling cargo to a planet three parsecs away, works out to be cheaper than a J1 ship, because it can do it all in one jump.
Hello?
Since when is service cheaper because it gives you the opportunity to reach destinations that could otherwise not be reached and do this in even a significantly shorter time. I surely don't want a exact working economic system, but some sense would be nice. If I ask FedEx or UPS not to ship my stuff from New York to Hamburg/Germany, but fly it and then tell them:
"Hey guys I want your faster service for only half the price, because your crew won't be on a boring 5 day ship trip, but a fency 8 hour flight." They would give me the boot.
"Don't call us, we call you!"

Extra service equals extra costs. The basic agreement in being a merchant is "I deliver your cargo safe to the destination you give". Everything else costs extra. Why? I am not a social welfare organisation. Buying a j1 ship is considerably cheaper than buying a j3 ship, so using a j3 ship to haul should be much more expansive. If I order the captain of a j3 ship to haul my cargo to a world 3 parsecs away and pay the same price I would do if I'd order a captain of a j1 ship to do the same I still win the day, because my cargo arrives 2 weeks earlier. That's a lot of time and time is money...

The other thing is the annual payment. My players would like to do "special assignments", less cargo, more mercanery like... Fine stuff I gave them a ship, no roll on the mustering out table required, they got a fartrader for free, but they still have to pay the 40 years. Wow! Sounds nice, doesn't it? But unless they charge at least some 0.5MCr for every "special mission" they are going to do PLUS taking bulk cargo for a mission that lasts only one week (plus jumping back and forth) they are in deep sh*t. If you take in account that a normal ship runs a jump only every 2 weeks (stated in the T20 core rule book) you can't possibly pay it off.

In a world like this the logical consquence would be that noone is a freelancer. You hire out to a big corp, they pay you and it is easier for them to cover the annual costs since:

- they propably own enough capital to purchase the ship completely,
- they might earn the yard,
- they can access spare parts and fuel easier (you don't charge your own people more than production costs for fuel and parts).

The dire consequences would be that less important worlds only get shipments on a sparse base and that every ship would be owned by corps with freelancers being either ultra rich or lucky bastards. If every ship is owned by a corp they would buy or outmatch the smaller corps, leaving only megacorps and their daughter corps out there. Consequently the megacorps would either make a price war on each other or form alliances e.g. allowing each other to use facilities of each other and so forth.
Under these circumstances big corps, maybe only a dozen or less would run all economy of the Imperium and de facto own it. Maybe they would also own it de jure, since most corps would be owned by nobles or the Emperor himself.

So what's the sollution for my problem? How can my players survive without becoming pirates?

UL
 
<edited>

First I'll address the choice of ship, and say that you are far too kind to your players ;)

Rather than give them a brand spanking new just off the slipway model with that huge mortgage why not make it a well used model on its second mortgage. The depreciation is 10% right off and another 10% for each full 10 years. So if you give them a 40 year old ship the mortgage is cut in half right there (10% + 10% per 10 years of age for a -50% of the new cost). That should make it easier for them to make ends meet. Just remember that the annual overhaul and routine maintneance are still based on the full new cost ;)

Also note that in this economic model a ship's useful life is only about 90 years. I allow a doubling of that by reducing the depreciation factor to 5% increments IF the ship is treated to a full overhaul every ten years (cost is equal to 10 years of annual maintenance and it takes 2 months).

And speaking of maintenance, that open another area of fun for you as the referee. By giving them an older ship you can apply all sorts of fun quirks (do a quick search for "quirks" in the Fleet forum) for the ship. Give it a personality and have fun


As for the rest, the arguments and solutions have been much bandied about on the boards here and elsewhere. The simplest solution is to change the "per jump" to "per parsec", so a J1 Free-Trader making a delivery to a world 2 parsecs distant will charge the same as a J2 Far-Trader making the same trip (in half the time). Given a choice shippers will patronize the Far-Trader. I've suggested the way the handle this preference is to grant a bonus of +1 per parsec on the trade tables. So when checking for passengers and goods you find more and they pay more.

Actually your argument almost has me convinced that the per jump rule is valid ;) As a shipper if I charge you the same amount to get your package there fast or slow the difference is if I do it fast I can do more volume and make more profit. The overhead for each shipment is also lower since the time is less. HEY THE COURIER OUTFITS ARE RIPPING US OFF!


Anyway, just a couple ideas, I expect there will be more to follow.
 
Don't forget guys, that large liners need support to be profitable. I've always assumed that the freight and speculative cargo rules were designed for the fly traders who trawl through the starport on the hunt for something profitable on the grounds that the larger ships have already taken anything worthwhile, hence the rules for freight and speculative cargo simply represent the leftovers of the corporate table.

Any liner of that size (8000 tons) would have dedicated cargo and freight offices on every world along its route that would source profitable cargos for the liner, and have dedicated holding warehouses and storage depots, to facilitate this, hence when the liner arrived it might spend only one day unloading, whilst loading up on the next day and immediately jumping to its next destination, thus achieving more jumps per month. I would also expect the owning corporation to have profitable deals set up with the local government or dominant on planet corporations and be a 'preferred carrier' which might involve charging a set fee per amount of hold space allocated, regardless of how full it actually is as per the mail rules. Hence the organisation that actually pays for that space would find the expenditure to be more profitable the fuller it is, in much the same way that full mail van is obviously more cost effective for the mail company than a half empty one.

As in real life, its a rare large company that actually pays any taxes, and hence if your liner is serving the same group worlds all of the time and giving a reliable and constant, predictable service then why not demand a government subsidy, in lieu of taxes paid.

As an aside, what pirates do you have in your TU who would willingly attack an 8000 ton liner, afterall a ship this size with minimal defences should easily swot the typical 200-400 ton raider.

Dont forget you are also a bulk consumer of fuel so a discount is in order there, and as for berthing they should be paying you or giving you a kickback on money spent when your passengers disembark and flood the starport bars, hotels and restaurants.

Also I would imagine that financing would be different, in much the same way that a man buying a small speed boat would purchase it with different terms to the multimillion pound shipping company commisioning the build of a new new ocean liner. Vessells as large as this one, are seriously good for the economy of any world with a shipyard, hence the 80% standard design discount should be thrown out, take bids from competing shipyards, and lower that price, perhaps to 50% even...

Coming back to financing, dividing the purchase price by 240 and paying that each month over 40 years actually returns double the value of the ship. If your going to finance it through a bank mortgage, negotiate and get it down to 1 1/2 of the ships purchase price or even lowe if applicable, hence lowering the monthly mortgage payment.

However if you are financing on your own paper (paying for it yourself) then don't go for profit, just get enough money in each month (all revenue streams) to meet costs, because once year 40 has come you will have made 100% on the purchase price of your ship or 1 1/2 if you give yourself a discount. Pretty handy when the going gets tough or subsector wide financial collapse is imminent(bottom of the trade cycle).

Other forms of income can be gained by floating yourdself on the local stock exchanges, (long term investors like stable companies that show steady growth) and you could also set up your own merchant academy, attracting the best and brightest people from all over the subsector or sector to attend and pay for the privilige of your expertise and training. (the added advantage that they or their families are paying you to teach them how to become your crew - Priceless!).

One day when I get time, I might even write up some rules for large ships, hope this helps.

 
Got a question for you Far Trader, and heck the board in general.

Am setting up a game, and I want to offer the players a particular ship. Part of it is the quirks, but part of it is that I think it would be cheaper for the players as well. No 40 year mortage.

[What banking outfit is going to invest in a ship that can leave and never be heard from again? Why are all the players paying mortages when they can just as easily, or even easier, move to another sector far away from the home bank. Keep moving, you outrun the bank]

Anyway, here is the deal. Keppar Yards in Berkshire, a planet that is part of a federation of star systems rimward of earth, yet pretty far to rimward, has decided to open a new business. They are most famous as a junk yard for old space craft. They have started taking several of these giant hunks of steel and rebuilding them, using parts from several ships to make one functional ship.

The original ships had been junked, totaled or written off years before. Now, in this particular case, they had 3 Beowulfs, collecting dust and none of which worked. But put them all together, and you have a flyable starship, that barely meets Imperial (or Federation) standards.

So the question is, how much is such a ship going to cost the players? It ain't a new ship, but pieces of 3 old ships. What kind of a discount should the players get?
 
The problem I have with the "per jump" rule is you are looking at it from the shipper's poitn of view. It is the buyer that determines the price, not the seller's cost.

Its one of those, "Cost, Time, Distance" pick any two kind of things. the slower folks are going to have to charge LESS than the fast folks, just to attract business. "Yes we can get your package there, but it will take longer, therefore we are going to give you a bit of a discount." (Or alternately, "We can get your package there faster, but it will cost you more." It amounts to the same thing either way.)
 
So how about this.
Jump-1 use cargo rules.
Jump-2 x2 price
Jump-3 x 3
etc. However if standard 2 parsec regular rules apply.
 
Ursus,

First, I think far-trader is right; an older ship is more "realistic", as well as cheaper. And that doesn't mean it's a rust-bucket. It could mean that it has been customized a bit (how about a fixed single laser on the nose? Gives ya an extra gun 'for free' with perhaps a slight penalty to hit.)

Traveller had (has?) rules for players who aren't accountants: the subsidized trader. They're contracted, by a corporation, a world government, or the Scouts, or whoever, to run freight and mail between a set number of worlds for half the year, in return for the employer making the payments on the ship for those six months. Freight is transported "for free", and docking fees are waived, but the mail subsidy is Cr 25000 per landing, with a 5 ton mandatory allocation of cargo space. Any money they make on speculation and passengers goes to salaries, maintenance, and profit. Heck, if the employer is desperate enough, he might throw in the fuel for free. The rest of the year, the group is free to wander. Make it a yearly-renewable contract, and both the employer and employee can cut loose when it's time for review.

Out of economic curiosity, where will they begin adventuring? Maybe we-all can arrive at some potential numbers for subsidized trade for 1 month, so we can see how much spare cash they'll have left over, and where they can do special missions.

Rob
 
Interesting Robject, I've not seen or am forgetting the "half a year" reference for Subbies. Do you remember where its from?

What I recall most easily is the CT model of requiring the operator to make the 20% down for the ship with the contractor setting a route of 2-12 worlds. The contractor makes the loan payments and takes 50% of the gross receipts while the operator is responsible for all operational (crew, maintenance, repairs, berthing, fuel, etc.) costs, which they take out of their 50% of the gross. Any profit for the operator depends on running it for less than that 50% while the contractor usually operates at a significant deficit since they have to make the bank payments on just 50% of the gross, unless they have alternative financing (very likely since we're talking governments or megacorps and such). I always took it to mean that the route of 2-12 worlds was continuous for the whole year, allowing for annual maintenance of course.

Finally when the ship is paid off, after 40 years, it is the operator's free and clear, except for the Mobilization clause
file_23.gif
I've always thought this would make the ideal entry setup for a group of PC's. Let them "have" a 40 year old Subbie paid off free and clear and then after a while have it and them called up to serve in the FFW or some other operation. The possibilities are almost unlimited. They could be tasked with supply operations for forward elements, or sent on commerce raiding missions. Or maybe just told to snoop around behind enemy lines (do they still shoot spies
file_23.gif
). They could be captured, or just have their ship nearly destroyed. If they make it through the war then maybe the contractor will use them as trouble shooters (there's that dang mobilization clause again, I don't see anywhere that it says they get paid or compensated for damages
file_21.gif
). Anywho, just a couple more ideas...
 
Hi far-trader.

Yes, you have a better grasp on the details than I do, except I thought the contract was X weeks on, Y weeks off, or some such thing. Two, four, or six month intervals leaves time to do adventures off-cycle, and lets the characters age and develop some.

I also seem to recall the 50% number. Suffice it to say that I tailor the deal to where they are not going to lose their ship, but will not get rich either. Since our group doesn't really care a lot about interstellar economics, it's easier for me to do the 100% subsidy for X months, figure out how much time they can take off with the money they've saved, and run the adventure for that amount of time, then they return to running freight for a time.

I didn't remember that 20% down was required for subsidized routes, but I shouldn't be surprised.

I imagine the contractor might well have a close working relationship to the bank which holds the lein on the starship, and may get a very low interest rate...

Rob
 
Ah, of course. That's an interesting idea/way to play it. So if I follow if right (and just as a general average mind you, tailoring to each game is the best way of course) the operator could instead of the standard 50/50 split make it something like 20/80 and take the 30 as time off route (about 14 weeks) for private ventures. Something like that?

I like it, a lot! :cool: Tailored contracts, very nice, kudos for the idea, where ever it originated, and thanks for sharing.
 
You're forgetting one thing though guys, and that is, that someone has to buy the ship brand new, and that buying decision has to be profitable, without a new ship market there wont ever be a used ships market. Those 40 or 50 year old rust buckets were all new once, and presumably made money for their owners.
 
True Commander. Maybe the core worlds operate differently (more volume = more profits) and that drives most (or all) new construction. As the ships age and are replaced by newer models the old models get shipped off to the frontier and sold there where they can operate at a profit even with the lower margins. Just an idea.

Someone mentioned in a similar thread that a lot of newer ships might also be bought outright (by the big boys) to avoid the 20% down and 100% interest. T20 even mentions an additional 10% discount for paying cash, on top of the 20% discount if its a standard model. That makes for some pretty good savings, if you have the deep pockets to go that way ;)
 
Are they really rust buckets at 40yrs. I have refitted ships every 40 yrs...life expectancy is based on wear and tear numbers. Hence, the nicer the ships life, the lower the maintenance.

While at it most of a ships wear is from re-entry. Ships in the J1 routes could be stopping at highports or stations...etc.


Savage
 
Originally posted by Commander Drax:
You're forgetting one thing though guys, and that is, that someone has to buy the ship brand new, and that buying decision has to be profitable,
This is a good point, but not sure it applies to Subbies. That is the whole point of subsidazation in the first place, because the routes are not profitable, (yet, and may never be.) The volume of trade is too low, or the available cash at market is just not there. (Or alternative trade goods.)

That is the whole point in subsidizing a vessel in the first place, is the fact that it AIN'T profitable to run that route. If it were profitable, the subsidy would not be needed.
 
Back
Top