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Ship Weapon Thoughts/Discussion

BG, I'm over the pond in a different time zone, so sometimes there may be an 8 or so hour delay before I can reply. I just read both your requests for info. :)

Sabredog and Aramis are correct in their interpretations. Imagine the TOS shuttle bay with a torpedo launcher, rack of missile launchers or a massive tail-gun mounted in it - and if the weapon is removed, the bay can be used for other things - like housing shuttlecraft.

Edit: I even like the fact that it's rounded - makes for an easier firing arc.

Interesting. For whatever reason that just seems really weird to me.
 
Gents,

My. 0.02 CrImps....

Turrets - Despite all the deckplans, turrets IMTU are very rarely manned. I've always though that sticking all the stuff a gunner needs, like an acceleration chair, life support, controls, etc., in a turret was a waste of space. Instead, the gunner's station is either, in most paramilitary, commercial, small ship, single turret cases, inside the hull very near the turret itself or, in most military, large ship, battery-made-up-of-turrets cases, elsewhere aboard in some gunnery direction compartment.

Turrets IMTU resemble the "pimple" turrets of the USN's 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 gun in that they're crammed full of machinery that moves very rapidly and, while they can be accessed both internally and externally, it's not a good idea for a sophont to actually be inside one during operation.

Missiles in turrets - I'd always assumed that turret launched missiles used rails something akin to the USN's Mk_13_missile_launcher. Furthermore, missiles IMTU are very rarely "fly out" or "swim out" types. Rather than igniting their maneuver drives while still on the rail or in a bay, they are instead first launched by the rail, hence the need for it, and their maneuver drives then engage at a distance from the ship. While HG2 sates that missiles require no energy points that doesn't mean that missiles don't require any energy at all. I simply figured the energy used by the rail was trivial and, in some cases, could be produced by the missile itself.

Sand in turrets - See what I wrote about missiles above. Sand canisters wouldn't use rails, but they'd have some other device which flings from the ship at a "trivial" energy cost.

Lasers in turrets - As an engineer I very much liked TNE's somewhat more realistic lasers. As a wargamer, I very much disliked losing my triple laser turrets. Anyway, lasers IMTU are not long thin tubes resembling CPR guns, instead they're emitters. Sometimes, such in the case of mixed turrets, those emitters must be shrouded to some extent.

Energy weapon is turrets - For various reasons mainly having to do with creating and aiming the energy "bolts" they produce, IMTU plasma guns, fusion guns, and PAs all resemble CPR guns more than lasers do.

Barbettes - These are little more than heavy turrets IMTU. They're larger because the weapons they house require more volume. Their increased volume also means, IMTU, that there's a better chance of them being physically manned but hat chance is still low.

Bays in general - These are modular weapons installations IMTU. If you've the EPs to power them, you can swap any similar sized bay for another similar sized bay. My, admittedly weak, rationale for this is the fact that the Imperium is surrounded and, while incredibly rich, cannot afford to build ships specifically optimized for use against each of her enemies.

The Zhos, Vargr, Julians, K'Kree, Hivers, Sollies, Aslan, and myriad other potential foes are all going to build warships with capabilities determined by their specific financial, TL, cultural, and other situations. The Imperium cannot build to meet all those specific threats, so the Imperium instead builds warships with a limited modular capability in the form of bays. For example, this means Imperial capital ships can replace missile bays with PAWs, while also losing some agility, in order to slug it out with the huge battlewagons of the Lords of Thunder or make the opposite switch in order to have more large missile batteries with which to swat the smaller, more numerous Vargr raiders along the long coreward border.

(While I came up with this very silly excuse in the early 80s as a way to "explain" bays, you can see something of the same thinking in the various littoral combatants the USN and others are now building. No matter the particulars, all those vessels are modular to some extent or another in order that they may be customized for specific missions. You should also note the same thinking holds true for the same reasons with the fleet operated and built for the RCES in TNE.)

Just what a bay looks like externally will depend on what weapon the bay in question is currently holding.

Missile bays - These are not VLS systems IMTU primarily for the "fly/swim out" reasons I mentioned earlier. Instead, a bay will consists of a box launcher akin to the ASROC system and a number of reloads for that box launcher. When in use, the bay's outer doors retract and the box launcher is extended. Just how many missiles a bay launched was something I never really settled on. More than a triple missile turret obviously and a 100dTon bay will launch more missiles than a 50dTon bay of the same TL. Other than that I never came up with numbers I liked.

PAW/Energy weapon bays - These bays IMTU most resembled the bays shown on the AHL deckplans. There is machinery within the bay producing the energy "bolts" the weapons use and feeding that energy to emitters/directors mounted in something resembling a very large, heavily armored turret. Real world battleship turrets or the Death Star's laser tower turrets both fed my imagination on this.

Repulsor bays - Nothing much protrudes, IMTU, from bay in this instance. The bay is filled with the machinery producing and projecting the 'anti-grav beams" in the HG2 description. There may be something resembling the AN/SPY "dish" mounted on the bay's surface, but that's it.

Meson bays - As with repulsors, nothing much protrudes from the weapon bay IMTU. Because meson fire passes through matter until it decays, a meson bay installation contains a particle accelerator on an infinite traverse. The meson gun is then "aimed" by positioning the accelerator, there is no need for "turrets", emitters, and the like. Again, there may be something on the surface of the bay like the AN/SPY mentioned earlier, but nothing really "shows" to the untrained eye. Also, IMTU, I weakly explained the Batteries Bearing limitation on meson gun bays by linking it to fire control instead of physical location.

And that's pretty much how I bloviated to my players about starship weaponry during my days as a GM.


Regards,
Bill
 
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Very nice explanations, Bill. This pretty much matches how I thought of these. On the meson bay Batteries Bearing, I've thought that there just isn't enough room in the bay to have universal aiming equipment. A possiblity would be to allow universal aiming in a 100-ton bay, but since volume had to be sacrificed, the weapon factor is reduced to the same as a 50-ton bay.

Gents,

...

Also, IMTU, I weakly explained the Batteries Bearing limitation on meson gun bays by linking it to fire control instead of physical location.
 
Very nice explanations, Bill.


Dominator,

Thank you.

This pretty much matches how I thought of these.

I cribbed most of my "explanations" from the weapons aboard the ships I served aboard, deckplans/descriptions/depictions in Traveller, actual history, and a pinch of thinking. It all worked well enough for my groups, whether it works well enough for other groups is up to those groups.

On the meson bay Batteries Bearing, I've thought that there just isn't enough room in the bay to have universal aiming equipment.

That works very neatly. Standard bays like the ones I envisioned are going to have standard dimensions. The movement of a meson gun's particle accelerator on an infinite traverse is going describe a sphere but...

... if a meson gun requires an accelerator of a certain length, and...

... that length is longer than the shortest dimensions of our standard bays, then...

... a meson gun's accelerator's traverse movement would be constrained, and...

... that movement would now describe two cones whose points are touching.

Game, set, and match, Dominator. You've just very neatly "explained" why meson gun bays must abide by the Batteries Bearing rules despite being able to shoot though normal matter!


Regards,
Bill
 
That works very neatly. Standard bays like the ones I envisioned are going to have standard dimensions. The movement of a meson gun's particle accelerator on an infinite traverse is going describe a sphere but...

... if a meson gun requires an accelerator of a certain length, and...

... that length is longer than the shortest dimensions of our standard bays, then...

... a meson gun's accelerator's traverse movement would be constrained, and...

... that movement would now describe two cones whose points are touching.

Game, set, and match, Dominator. You've just very neatly "explained" why meson gun bays must abide by the Batteries Bearing rules despite being able to shoot though normal matter!

Is there any reason the particle accelerator's length has to limited to straight? What about a coiled track or one that is set up as a mobius loop with a "gate" to release the particle when it reaches the desired speed?

I have always posited that planetary defense meson guns are underground spheres with the accelerators floating in the middle using gravitic aiming controls so they can engage the orbiting fleet from any angle regardless of the emplacement's location.

There is no reason, if you want to muddy the batteries bearing waters more, to do the same with coiled or mobius looped accelerator tracks built along the central spine of the hull and using more compact gravitic controls to allow for aiming anywhere through the ship you want.

But, you wouldn't want a meson gun that is winding up to fire malfunctioning deep inside your ship I suppose as a result of incoming hits, so maybe putting the things on the outside (or just under in) of the hull is safer. Like blast panels for munitions storage?

I'm no physicist, but I play one in Traveller so I'm just spit-balling here.
 
Crazy Ivan: In the wet navies of old, submarines use to turn around on a random bases to check the rear for the presences of enemy vessel in there accoustic shadow. In space warfare, it is a tact used to fire on enemy ships approaching from the rear....

Yes and no. It depends (as do all things in Traveller) on the system you are using. Mayday and CT use vector movement so this sort of thing would work. High Guard uses range banding so if this sort of thing happens it's abstracted into that simplified system since the enemy in that case is always to your front. Unless you are fleeing, but see below for that case.

And since turrets exist in the game they can be directed to fire to the rear, side, or wherever. So since configuration of the ship and placement of the weapons (of all kinds but the spinal gun) isn't something accounted for in the game Crazy Ivan's are cool but don't have an effect.
 
Is there any reason the particle accelerator's length has to limited to straight?


Sabredog,

None that I'm aware of. CERN's Large Hadron Collider, FermiLab's collider, and most others are either loops or closed loops of one form or another while Stanford's SLAC is linear.

I have always posited that planetary defense meson guns are underground spheres with the accelerators floating in the middle using gravitic aiming controls so they can engage the orbiting fleet from any angle regardless of the emplacement's location.

That's the "infinite traverse" I wrote about and, far from me making it up, that's exactly how deep meson sites are described in canon.

But, you wouldn't want a meson gun that is winding up to fire malfunctioning deep inside your ship I suppose as a result of incoming hits, so maybe putting the things on the outside (or just under in) of the hull is safer. Like blast panels for munitions storage?

Again that's part of my thinking. First, keeping the particles you're accelerating spinning around the loop or race course requires energy and equipment. The LHC was shut down only a few years ago when one of the superconducting magnets used for beam control failed. While the 57th Century will have different ways of controlling particles, I don't think they won't have to deal with the problem at all. Losing part of your beam loop controls means the beam you're creating to shoot at an opponent is now "squirting" off course, out of the loop, and into your ship.

Second, the AHL deckplans concerned with that ship's spinal mount seem to show the circular accelerator "feeding" or "pumping" the actual spinal mount itself.

I assumed that this was how bay meson and PAW installations worked too. Smaller circular accelerators feed or pump the system with the final linear accelerator boosting the particle stream to "weapon-grade" status. If the circular pumps are damaged or lose control of their streams, you have less of a chance of a "weapons-grade" particle stream suddenly erupting inside and into your ship.


Regards,
Bill
 
Gents,

My. 0.02 CrImps....


*snip*

My, admittedly weak, rationale for this is the fact that the Imperium is surrounded and, while incredibly rich, cannot afford to build ships specifically optimized for use against each of her enemies.

The Zhos, Vargr, Julians, K'Kree, Hivers, Sollies, Aslan, and myriad other potential foes are all going to build warships with capabilities determined by their specific financial, TL, cultural, and other situations. The Imperium cannot build to meet all those specific threats, so the Imperium instead builds warships with a limited modular capability in the form of bays. For example, this means Imperial capital ships can replace missile bays with PAWs, while also losing some agility, in order to slug it out with the huge battlewagons of the Lords of Thunder or make the opposite switch in order to have more large missile batteries with which to swat the smaller, more numerous Vargr raiders along the long coreward border.

(While I came up with this very silly excuse in the early 80s as a way to "explain" bays, you can see something of the same thinking in the various littoral combatants the USN and others are now building. No matter the particulars, all those vessels are modular to some extent or another in order that they may be customized for specific missions. You should also note the same thinking holds true for the same reasons with the fleet operated and built for the RCES in TNE.)

Just what a bay looks like externally will depend on what weapon the bay in question is currently holding.

*snip again*

And that's pretty much how I bloviated to my players about starship weaponry during my days as a GM.


Regards,
Bill

Bill, I think the weapon's descriptions pretty much overlap all those areas. To me a bay is really a set or collection of weapons, possibly, but not necessarily, all operated and aimed in one direction. A bay, for all intents and purposes, is a battery variant. I think the AA battery on an Iowa class BB could also be characterized as a "weapons' bay" after a fashion, but certainly not a "missile bay" where the weapons are laid down next to one another, and made ready to launch in one direction.

*MAJOR EDIT*

Sorry dudes, I was tired and hungry when I wrote that post.

In short, your mileage may vary. I think the 3I has enough brain and brawn to address all security issues tossed at it. Whether you're thinking space opera-ish cinematic adventure, or some hard core war game simulation.

Either way, I think drawing wet-navy parallels to the unlimited visibility of space, is a major mis-step because the environments are radically different. Where tons of ideas can be drawn up and extrapolated, class, size and so forth, the major difference is that space is, well, space. This is to say the hardpoint on a modern day DDG is going to have a different set of operating parameters than a DD operating in a vacuum.

That nice missile rack mounted up front on your sleek hulled ocean bound navy ship is going to be hard pressed to operate in space as it would on a terrestrial ocean where BVR acts as a sort of protection.

Does that make better sense?

Sorry guys. My mind occasionally gets detracted by real world issues.
 
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You can't intercept a self guided missile or shell with a CIWS.


Yes you can. Here's the latest version the US has for land use.....and the Phalanx intercepts self guiding cruise missiles just fine - its just that it is the last line of defense. In fact in Traveller the sand fired by casters to defend against lasers works to a lesser extent against missiles as well.

Anyway, here's the new CIWS that intercepts mortar and artillery fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM

If you translated this to a future CIWS, like say the point-defense rules in Striker then even canon shows how it can be done very efficiently with energy weapons. Which is why there is an Anti-Missile program in Trav, too, for ships.
 
Yes you can. Here's the latest version the US has for land use.....and the Phalanx intercepts self guiding cruise missiles just fine - its just that it is the last line of defense. In fact in Traveller the sand fired by casters to defend against lasers works to a lesser extent against missiles as well.

Anyway, here's the new CIWS that intercepts mortar and artillery fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-RAM

If you translated this to a future CIWS, like say the point-defense rules in Striker then even canon shows how it can be done very efficiently with energy weapons. Which is why there is an Anti-Missile program in Trav, too, for ships.

Sorry dog, it was a typo. I had one thought going while my fingers where still typing the old. Sorry for the confusion. Please reread my pointless ramblings.
 
BG,

While I don't think you quite got what I was writing about, I know I definitely haven't understood most of your response. Maybe tomorrow after my little gray cells get some rest?

Anyway, in that post I was trying (and failing) to illustrate how I "explained" HG2's weapon mount terminology to my players. I wasn't trying to explain how I would prefer 57th Century weapons to be handled, but rather how HG2 says they are handled.

About your seeming confusion regarding batteries and bays; a "bay" in HG2 most certainly is a "battery" but a "battery is always a "bay". In HG2, the term "battery" refers to an operational grouping of weapons which A) are all of the same type and B) are all aimed at the same target. A single turret can be a battery, multiple turrets can be grouped into a battery, a single bay is a battery, and spinal mount is a battery too.

What the term "battery" meant in the past is of no consequence to me because I was only talking about HG2's depiction of the matter.

Also, attempting to further explain my bloviating regarding bays giving the IN some "modular" capabilities in their ship designs, bays only come in two sizes and both the AHL booklets by inference and A:5 TCS by explicit rules say that bays weapons of the same volume can be switched out with one another. Discounting the absurdly power hungry meson gun bays, if you set aside 60 EPs per 100dTon bay or 30 EPs per 50dTon bay, you can mount 75% of 100dTon weapons or 5 of the six 50dTon selections. At the cost of a trivial yard period, when compared to actual construction, IN warships with bays can be somewhat modified for particular combat missions.


Regards,
Bill
 
It also says in HG explicitly that weapons can be swapped out at will (so long as the energy points are there to make it work) in both the 50 and 100 ton bays. It also goes so far as to point out that anything else up to the bay's tonnage could be stored in the bay - which implies either a temporary cover or movable doors for the bay.

Whether or not that means those doors would be there if a weapon system is plugged in depends on what you think a bay looks like.
 
Whether or not that means those doors would be there if a weapon system is plugged in depends on what you think a bay looks like.


Sabredog,

Agreed. I'd think the "doors" would be part of the "weapon module" being "plugged" in.

On another note, weapons get the least amount of protection from armor on the Surface Explosion table so those bay doors, when they do exist, aren't going stop most weapon hits.


Regards,
Bill
 
BG,

While I don't think you quite got what I was writing about, I know I definitely haven't understood most of your response. Maybe tomorrow after my little gray cells get some rest?

Anyway, in that post I was trying (and failing) to illustrate how I "explained" HG2's weapon mount terminology to my players. I wasn't trying to explain how I would prefer 57th Century weapons to be handled, but rather how HG2 says they are handled.

About your seeming confusion regarding batteries and bays; a "bay" in HG2 most certainly is a "battery" but a "battery is always a "bay". In HG2, the term "battery" refers to an operational grouping of weapons which A) are all of the same type and B) are all aimed at the same target. A single turret can be a battery, multiple turrets can be grouped into a battery, a single bay is a battery, and spinal mount is a battery too.

What the term "battery" meant in the past is of no consequence to me because I was only talking about HG2's depiction of the matter.

Also, attempting to further explain my bloviating regarding bays giving the IN some "modular" capabilities in their ship designs, bays only come in two sizes and both the AHL booklets by inference and A:5 TCS by explicit rules say that bays weapons of the same volume can be switched out with one another. Discounting the absurdly power hungry meson gun bays, if you set aside 60 EPs per 100dTon bay or 30 EPs per 50dTon bay, you can mount 75% of 100dTon weapons or 5 of the six 50dTon selections. At the cost of a trivial yard period, when compared to actual construction, IN warships with bays can be somewhat modified for particular combat missions.


Regards,
Bill

Ah, got it.

But I was referencing what I thought was your ideal conceptualization of various iterations of a missile bays.

I'm still of the opinion that the actual physical makeup of what a bay looks like is still up for grabs. And I lean towards protective mounts. But, as the rules don't really get into this kind of detail, and as I am sans a Traveller group, and am just writing and interacting here hoping to get my Traveller stuff out to the public at some point, I guess it's a moot point :)

Moot. Get it? Ah, nevermind.
 
I'm still of the opinion that the actual physical makeup of what a bay looks like is still up for grabs.


BG,

Oh, most certainly!

My bloviating was just about what my group "bought" regarding turrets and bays. What other groups "buy" is entirely up to them. My nonsense worked for us and us alone.

We do, however, have at least one canonical representation of at least what at one type of weapon bay looks like and it's on the AHL deckplan PFVA63 posted in the post that began this thread.


Regards,
Bill
 
Heaving a my wooden shoe into the machinery here to see what comes of it:

I was just looking through Traders n' Gunboats and the X-Boat Tender has it's 2 non-popup turrets "mounted on tracks so they can be moved to whatever area of the ship needs protection".

What's up with that relative to the whole concept of these ships being able to rotate and all within 3 dimensional space at any time during combat to always bring maximum batteries to bear? Why would they think this sort of arrangement (let alone why they bother with the pop-up turret) in order to accomplish what a ship with just a single turret is assumed to be able to do?
 
In the case of the XBoat tender, it has to do with being able to fire any direction whilst still recovering (or launching) XBoats.
 
Missile bays - These are not VLS systems IMTU primarily for the "fly/swim out" reasons I mentioned earlier. Instead, a bay will consists of a box launcher akin to the ASROC system and a number of reloads for that box launcher. When in use, the bay's outer doors retract and the box launcher is extended. Just how many missiles a bay launched was something I never really settled on. More than a triple missile turret obviously and a 100dTon bay will launch more missiles than a 50dTon bay of the same TL. Other than that I never came up with numbers I liked.

I wrote an article on missile magazines in which I give a couple of variations on the number of missiles you would get in a missile bay. It may be helpful to your imagination.

http://www.freelancetraveller.com/features/shipyard/missilemags.html
 
Yeah, I'm still a little iffy on that. Assuming the launcher has some kind of protection, why would you mount it outside the ship in the first place?

Like I was trying to say earlier in the week with my buckshot like scatter-brained reasoning, to me, the protection of and by the ship's hull is paramount. Tacking an ASROC or a Phalanx weapon system on a hull that is exposed to line of sight fire, in my opinion, is really asking for disaster.

But that's just my opinion. And, to harken back that earlier skiddish post, I always felt the Japanese immaginaries had it right with examples like "Space Battleship Yamato", where we see protected turrets as in the days of old. That, verse some mechanism that's exposed to fire.

Again, just my opinion here. Maybe T5 will clarify things with it's version of High Guard.
 
Assuming the launcher has some kind of protection, why would you mount it outside the ship in the first place?


BG,

Now I understand what you were talking about!

IMTU the launching box isn't mounted on the hull, it's mounted in the bay because it's a bay weapon. There are doors of some sort or another shrouding/shielding the box launcher within the bay. The doors open, the launcher positions itself, the missiles are "flung" away, and the doors close.

I linked to that picture of an ASROC "box" because that's all I could find of the "correct" size and shape and not because the the box IMTU is spot welded to the hull someplace.

Look at that AHL deckplan which shows four weapon bays. The big blue "blocks" represent the bays and, IMTU, the missile box launcher and reloads are positioned within that blue "block".

As for weapons being protected by the ship's hull and armor, they are to some extent. However, because all weapons, even spinal mounts, need "egress ports", aiming systems, and other such systems, weapon "damage" or "degradation" is the most common result on HG2's Surface Explosion Damage table.


Regards,
Bill
 
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