Side issue about Regina's TL

[rancke]

Since we were seriously off topic and heading further out along the tangent, I decided to start a new thread.

Shame it happened then - cos a typo is what it is

You're probably right. But I have to say, I don't understand why it's such a big deal for you. Even if we assume, for purposes of argument, that the change wasn't for the better (as I firmly believe it was), why do you care enough to bring it up over and over again? I can't see that it's a change for the worse either. What spiffy official adventure is ruined by Regina having a TL of 12 instead of 10? What description of Regina is irreparably damaged by changing the '10' to a '12'? What vast untapped adventuring potential is utterly voided by Regina having a TL of 12 instead of 10?

Sure, I agree that in principle canon shouldn't be changed except for good and sufficient reasons. But if I'd protested and been told that that's how TPTB wanted it, and provided the new version wasn't self-contradictory and worked in itself, I'd just let it go. There are so many other things that ARE self-contradictory and DON'T work in itself that I don't feel it worth my while to go after the innocuous changes.

And different TLs for different technologies is a DGPism

So? You think it's a bad idea? You think it's implausible that a world could be advanced in some fields and retarded in others? You think it contradicts something fundamental in CT, that worlds with uniform technology is an essential CT trope? ('Essential' being a key word).

Mind you, I'm not saying that giving Regina a TL of 13 would not have been an even better improvement than giving it one of 12.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Since we were seriously off topic and heading further out along the tangent, I decided to start a new thread.

It was meant to be a joke - not an invitation to a discussion

You're probably right. But I have to say, I don't understand why it's such a big deal for you.

It's not a big deal - no way am I taking correcting fluid to my Traveller books so I just ignore all references to Regina being TL12.

Even if we assume, for purposes of argument, that the change wasn't for the better (as I firmly believe it was), why do you care enough to bring it up over and over again?
I can't see that it's a change for the worse either. What spiffy official adventure is ruined by Regina having a TL of 12 instead of 10? What description of Regina is irreparably damaged by changing the '10' to a '12'? What vast untapped adventuring potential is utterly voided by Regina having a TL of 12 instead of 10?

FFW, A:1, A:3, S:3, LBB6 all have Regina as TL10 - by your own admission you don't own LBB6.

How is Regina being TL 12 any better for all those things you listed?

It isn't, but maintaining it as TL10 until after the FFW doesn't invalidate all the canon material.

If Regina is raised to TL12 or even batter 13 between the end of FFW the MT era canon is preserved for everything apart from a very broken supplement - namely the Spinward Marches Campaign.

Sure, I agree that in principle canon shouldn't be changed except for good and sufficient reasons. But if I'd protested and been told that that's how TPTB wanted it, and provided the new version wasn't self-contradictory and worked in itself, I'd just let it go. There are so many other things that ARE self-contradictory and DON'T work in itself that I don't feel it worth my while to go after the innocuous changes.

Lol, because one day I'll get it changed back

So? You think it's a bad idea? You think it's implausible that a world could be advanced in some fields and retarded in others? You think it contradicts something fundamental in CT, that worlds with uniform technology is an essential CT trope? ('Essential' being a key word).

No , I don't think its a bad idea at all.

Mind you, I'm not saying that giving Regina a TL of 13 would not have been an even better improvement than giving it one of 12.


Hans

I agree, and if it had been thought about rather than being a typo TL13 is what we would have got

 

[McPerth]

I've always treated (as I've already told in other threads about the subject) that as Regina was raised from TL 10 to 12 while the FFW, due to the massive fleet based there and the support needed for it.

Of course, for that to be possible, it had to be advanced TL 10 before the war (quite believable, IMHO, being a subsector capital) and end the war as early TL 12 (3 years may bring wonders to advancing TL, but only so much).

While this may seem to much advancement for this span of time, massive investment by the IN, as it was a major war base for the fleet might achieve it (after all, some countries of Earth advanced quite a while in a few years while WWII. and for the world at large the war began with biplanes still in use and ended with jet planes...).

I know this is probably not canon, but it's a plausible way to fit all canon in without having to retcon anything. Remember Spindward marches suplement (Regina TL 10) is before FFW, while Spindward marches campaign and MT (Regina TL 12) are after FFW, so both fit in this explanation.

 

[mike wightman]

Pretty much how I do it - IMTU Regina gained its TL increase in the hiatus between FFW and the 1120 MT era.

 

[rancke]

It's not a big deal - no way am I taking correcting fluid to my Traveller books so I just ignore all references to Regina being TL12.

No one is asking you to.

FFW, A:1, A:3, S:3, LBB6 all have Regina as TL10 - by your own admission you don't own LBB6.

(Statement, Mike, not admission.)

You're not answering my question. I didn't ask for references that show Regina as TL 10; I'm quite aware of them. I asked what game-altering difference it would make if you took correcting fluid to all those references and changed them to 12. Note the qualifier. I'm not asking what difference it would make; I'm asking what significant difference it would make.

How is Regina being TL 12 any better for all those things you listed?

As a world with a history of being a subsector capital and major trade center for many centuries, a TL of 12 is more plausible than one of 10. It gives Regina much-needed clout to keep Efate from overtaking it in importance.

It isn't, but maintaining it as TL10 until after the FFW doesn't invalidate all the canon material.

If Regina is raised to TL12 or even batter 13 between the end of FFW the MT era canon is preserved for everything apart from a very broken supplement - namely the Spinward Marches Campaign.

And Grand Census and World Builder's Handbook, both of which has a Regina writeup (I'm told it's the same writeup as the one in Book 6 (with the TL changed to 12), but I can't say that for sure). But, most importantly, it fails to fix the problem with the Kinunir.

* The Kinunir was built on Regina in 1074.

* The Kinunir has a jump-4 drive.

* Regina has a space TL of 10.​

Pick two.

(I'm making one assumption here: that if Regina was TL 13 in 1074, it's not going to be TL10 in 1105. )

You can't have all three. If you insist that Regina's TL is 10, then either the Kinunir wasn't built on Regina or it has a jump-1 drive. Both of which IMO is a lot more disruptive of existing canon than quietly retconning Regina's TL.

Also, with the rate of technological change that is common in the Traveller universe, going a full tech level and more (from just under 11 to just over 12) in four years seems nothing short of miraculous (as in 'highly implausible') to me.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I've always just treated S3 as the 1050 data, and later presentations as the 1107 resurvey done in Adv0.

As for the need for it to be TL12: it's a major yard point and IN fleet base, as well as scout base.

In a Small Ship LBB-81 TU, at TL10, you can't build ships past 1KTd at TL10, but at TL12, you can build to 2000KTd, and can build model 5 computers, which are far more combat-capable, as well as being able to hit J4, and build X-Boats.

In the Big Ship Universe, it's J3 construction, rather than J1, and model 5 vs model 3.

It's also a subsector capital near the extreme rim-spin corner... Why? pulling the TLA data from TTB (cause I have it open, but noting it's TLA in Adv0, and S3)

Histogram of the subsectorTL's:
1
2
3
444
555
66
777777
88
999
AAA
BB
DDDDD

Moving it to B makes it one of the highest tech worlds in subsector - second tier , rather than 3rd. Second tier makes sense, 3rd less so.

 

[mike wightman]

No one is asking you to.

Really, I thought you were - after all if Regina is TL12 then all those canon materials have to be changed.

(Statement, Mike, not admission.)

It's the same thing - look it up.

You admitted on a previous thread that you didn't have LBB6 - therefore it is an admission.

You're not answering my question. I didn't ask for references that show Regina as TL 10; I'm quite aware of them. I asked what game-altering difference it would make if you took correcting fluid to all those references and changed them to 12. Note the qualifier. I'm not asking what difference it would make; I'm asking what significant difference it would make.

It changes FFW - and I paid a lot of money for it so I am not going to take a biro and correcting fluid to it.

As a world with a history of being a subsector capital and major trade center for many centuries, a TL of 12 is more plausible than one of 10. It gives Regina much-needed clout to keep Efate from overtaking it in importance.

LOL- the population difference already does that - you want to retcon the population now too to fit your image of how Regina should be?

Also you are making a fundamental error here.

The duke of Regina gets the taxes from Efate too - enough to maintain his own private TL15 army - but then you know that. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Regina's civilian government to challenge his own authority and a 5 TL difference pretty much achieves it.

And Grand Census and World Builder's Handbook, both of which has a Regina writeup (I'm told it's the same writeup as the one in Book 6 (with the TL changed to 12), but I can't say that for sure).

Yet more Traveller canon you don't own but happily argue about? Both DGP books were written after SMC was published and the authors obviously carried the error forward rather than going back to earlier, correct, material.

The folks at DGP obviously used the data in SMC in error without checking it - but then look at some of the other mistakes they made. The biggest one being they went back to the first edition CT version of how jump fuel is used.

By the by - the dat given for the survey for the data in DGP material that gives Regina a TL of 12 is.... 1112 - post FFW.

I love being right.

But, most importantly, it fails to fix the problem with the Kinunir.

* The Kinunir was built on Regina in 1074.

* The Kinunir has a jump-4 drive.

* Regina has a space TL of 10.​

Pick two.

(I'm making one assumption here: that if Regina was TL 13 in 1074, it's not going to be TL10 in 1105. )

You can't have all three. If you insist that Regina's TL is 10, then either the Kinunir wasn't built on Regina or it has a jump-1 drive. Both of which IMO is a lot more disruptive of existing canon than quietly retconning Regina's TL.

Yet again your lack of knowledge about the basic rules staggers me. It states (just for fun I'll let you find where) that a world may import parts from worlds within it's sub sector to build ships at an added cost.

Regina can/has to import parts to build Kinunir class ships.

How do you think Noris has a TL15 regiment or two?

Especially since the Kinunir has to be TL15 using LBB2.

Also, with the rate of technological change that is common in the Traveller universe, going a full tech level and more (from just under 11 to just over 12) in four years seems nothing short of miraculous (as in 'highly implausible') to me.


Hans

Again - you are making a false assumption that suits you.

To go from TL10 to TL12 Regina doesn't have to carry out 3000 years of r and d.

Over a few years it can import all the machinery and expertise from higher TL worlds to lift its manufacturing base to TL12.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Dragoner]

With HG1, Regina could build TL13 ships:

The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard.
page 21

 

[aramis]

Mike, the rules don't allow for navies importing parts affordably; Regina being 3 TL's behind... it's having to import most of the drives, and the nearest supplier is J2 away - expensive drives...

It would be far better to simply move the yard production to Yori than to ship all those drives to Regina. And computers. And people trained to support them.

Even as a TL C world, it's still a lousy choice for a naval yard by comparison to the nearby TLD world of Yori.

And Mike, in re the Duke's Huscarles vs local troops: Frankenstein rule - enough screaming peasants with pitchfork beats any monster. Also know as the Zulu War Rule. Regina can raise enough troops to canon fodder the Duke's huscarles, and given that there is little change in personal combat between TL 10 and 15... only the fusion guns, really... that that attempted line is fecal matter of equines. Yes, the FGMP's and better armor will make them about 10:1 more effective - but the local world can raise 100:1 odds if motivated. Squickems the huscarles, the duke, and the palace.

 

[mike wightman]

With HG1, Regina could build TL13 ships:

The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard.
page 21

I was thinking along the lines of the bit that says a planetary or subsector navy can have a ship built anywhere within its subsector, and that the Imperium can build up to TL15.

Regina at TL10 can not build the TL15 Kinunir. Regina at TL12 could build the Kinunir if using the 3 TL rule.
Regina at TL10 could build a TL13 Kinunir if such a thing existed - which it doesn't.

Regina can have Efate build all the bits and ship them to Regina for the final paint job and internals - which is how I explain it.

Let's face it we are now arguing about using a ship that doesn't fit in the retconned version of the Imperium to justify the retcon that allows the ship we want to get rid of. We are also using at least three different versions of the ship building rules to score minor points - or at least I am

 

[mike wightman]

Mike, the rules don't allow for navies importing parts affordably; Regina being 3 TL's behind... it's having to import most of the drives, and the nearest supplier is J2 away - expensive drives...

Very expensive. And absolutely stupid to boot.

However - these are the facts.

Regina was TL10 when the Kinunir was written.

The General Products Yard on Regina assembled Kinunir class ships.

Kinunir class ships are TL15.

Solution - build all the parts at Efate and ship them to Regina for assembly for political reasons - and produce sub-standard ships as a result.

It would be far better to simply move the yard production to Yori than to ship all those drives to Regina. And computers. And people trained to support them.

I agree - but they didn't/don't.

Explain why not - therein lies political intrigue and adventure.

Even as a TL C world, it's still a lousy choice for a naval yard by comparison to the nearby TLD world of Yori.

And Efate

And Mike, in re the Duke's Huscarles vs local troops: Frankenstein rule - enough screaming peasants with pitchfork beats any monster. Also know as the Zulu War Rule. Regina can raise enough troops to canon fodder the Duke's huscarles, and given that there is little change in personal combat between TL 10 and 15... only the fusion guns, really... that that attempted line is fecal matter of equines. Yes, the FGMP's and better armor will make them about 10:1 more effective - but the local world can raise 100:1 odds if motivated. Squickems the huscarles, the duke, and the palace.

Nope - imagine Rorke's Drift but give the British a few maxim machine guns - that's closer to the TL difference 5 would make.

The huscarles have meson artillery, nukes, rapid pulse fusion Y guns, grav gunships, battledress and combat armour. The locals have ACRs and combat environment suits.

Use the rules form FFW and see who wins.

 

[aramis]

The very moement they fire up the meson guns against locals, they've lost, Mike. As i, they have to wipe out the population, because there will be NO surrender.

And the Duke only has a couple regiments. Regina has the population to raise many. If the locals decide to do a coup d'etat upon the duke, the dukes INFANTRY regiments are pretty worthless. (The units we've seen for the Duke's Huscarles are Lift Infantry.) The RPY is great - but he's not got many, and missile saturation from TL10 MRLs can and will result in their eventual destruction. TL15 vs TL10 isn't akin to TL6 vs TL1 (but see also how the british TL6 LOST to the TL1 zulu due to unsustainable attrition vs sustainable attrition. Or the Nazis vs Petrograd, again, sustainable vs unsustainable attrition, tho in the Nazi case, due mostly to weather.) And Reginans have nukes, too. And, per CT, grav gunships, and can build combat armor as a 1TL early x2 cost. And can afford to import better CA-13 from Yori in bulk.

There is no way that the Dukes' two regiments can hold out against a world with 100,000,000 people. Even at the typical 1:1000 rate, that's still able to manage 1000 regiments.

Now, looking at a mere 20 TL 10 regiments vs 2 TL15 ones, using the tables in FFW... 5 TL shifts the 1:5 to 1.5:1; at most 60% casualties, while the 5:1 goes down to 1:1, at most 50% casualties. Pretty fair odds. It's effectively an 11 strength regiment ... and the Reginan Corps to the 3I is NOT going to be the only troop strength... it shows 15C local defense troops - 15 Corps worth... a 1500 to 11 option. As a commander, I throw them in a corps at a time to avoid the 100:1 collumn; 9/36 = 10% damage to the huscarles, 4/36 of 20%, 3/36 of 30%, 2/36 of 40% , and 1/36 of 50%; aggregated: for an expected per Corps damage of 11%. The damage to the Corps is also expected to be 11%, so I swap in the second, full strength one, so it's now 100:10. Then again, at 100:9 - which drops my expected losses from them to being in the 1:1.5 column, but I'm still using the 1:1 for mine, so I expect 7% losses... but they still expect 11%; down to 8 strength, and facing a fresh Corps... again, but now they drop even more... I can chew them down. It takes on average 10 Corps, but Regina has 15... And a Corps worth of losses, and a nasty grudge.


Oh, and Mike, better look at SMC... the Duke's 4518th may not actually be TL15...
The Arty is MRL TL6-11 (Bk4). The RP-Y is TL13-15. (Bk4) Battle Dress is TL13 (TTB). Grav Tanks and G-Carriers are TL8 (TTB). That they're listed as TL15 in 5FW, but show no signs of being TL15 in SMC. Nothing in it requires TL15. And TL13 could be locally sustained. (at frightful expense.)

And in an interesting side note: The local units are allowed to have Imperial Marines transfer in for extended TDY... SMC p.41.

 

[Carlobrand]

So, let me see if I have this right:

Per Traveller Adventure 0 - Imperial Fringe, Supplement 3, and other sources including Book 6 (1983), Regina is TL-10 - at least as of the 1105 census, or whatever that is.

Per Adventure 1 - The Kinunir (1979), four examples of the "battlecruiser" Kinunir were manufactured at the General shipyards at Regina. It's a 1200 ton jump-4, 4g ship with power plant-4. It could be a Book 2 design - Book 2 didn't quibble over tech levels much - but it has some elements not found in Book 2, including those particle accelerator barbettes, an experimental black globe and fibre-optic backup for the computer. According to Adventure 1, General's Regina yards are able to build ships up to 5000 tons (the upper limit for Book 2), while their Efate and Pixie yards can only construct ships up to 600 tons.

Per Book 5 (1980), a ship needs TL-13 to manage jump-4, or to have a Model-7/Fib combuter. Making matters worse, particle accelerator barbettes need TL-14, and a black globe needs TL-15. Interestingly, the 1979 original edition of Book 5 does not have particle accellerator barbettes or turrets, although it does allow a shipyard to build ships 3 tech levels above the level of the world (with a stiff surcharge for the privilege).

Per Supplement 9 - Fighting Ships (1981) Kinunir is a TL-15 ship - and now it weighs 1250 tons, has a nuclear damper, and the power plant has been upgraded to a PP-7. Oh, and it's a "colonial cruiser", and it's "not a true cruiser, being more properly termed an escort."

Per Spinward Marches Campaign (1985), Regina is TL-12 as of ~1112.

Consolidated CT Errata 2 (2009) has an entry for The Spinward Marches Campaign that notes Supplement 3 reflects 1105 data while SMC reflects 1112 data.

Consolidated CT Errata 7 (2012) has declared the TL value in Supplement-3, Imperial Fringe, Adventure 1, the Traveller Book AND Fifth Frontier War to be in error - Regina has been TL-12 all along. (They don't really expect me to write on my vintage FFW game map, do they??) However, it has not noticed the TL value in Book 6: Scouts; there must be a Zhodani saboteur at work.

So, basically what we have is a semi-Book-2 small-ship-universe "battlecruiser" mutant (shades of Leviathan) that borrowed ideas from an as yet unpublished Book 5 revision and then was ret-conned into the Book-5 (revised) universe, resulting in a situation where the ship supposedly built at Regina could not have been built at Regina, at least not under the Book-5 revision. Meanwhile, we have a SMC entry being vigorously retconned into previous canon - which while welcome (I rather like a TL-12 Regina) doesn't actually resolve the Kinunir issue unless you go by the original Book 5 rules, but that one doesn't have particle accelerator barbettes/turrets.

And we're ... trying to make sense of this?

Strikes me that if we're going to errata out all those other published works based on an SMC entry, it would be easier to also declare the Adventure 1 mention of Kinunir construction at Regina to be errata. Maybe what that middle age gentleman "knows" is in error, General has yards at Rhylanor, and it was built there and came to Regina for trim-work.

Incidentally, FFW has the 4518th at TL-15, 6 batallions. When did the uprising start?

 

[rancke]

Really, I thought you were - after all if Regina is TL12 then all those canon materials have to be changed.

They do? Just how do you envision that working? Marc Miller issues a decree ordering all of us to get busy with the correction fluid and change our old CT books? The Canon Police showing up at your door at dawn and dragging you away because you haven't complied?

It's the same thing - look it up.

Different connotations, Mike. (Con|no|ta|tion -- look it up).

You're not answering my question. I didn't ask for references that show Regina as TL 10; I'm quite aware of them. I asked what game-altering difference it would make if you took correcting fluid to all those references and changed them to 12. Note the qualifier. I'm not asking what difference it would make; I'm asking what significant difference it would make.

It changes FFW - and I paid a lot of money for it so I am not going to take a biro and correcting fluid to it.

So it doesn't actually make any difference to you, since you're not going to take a biro and correcting fluid to your copy of FFW.

You seem to have a really hard time comprehending my question. Even if you did change Regina's TL to 12 (and the TL of its CruRons too), is it going to change the balance of the game radically? Does it turn Regina into an unconquerable fortress and its CruRons into unstoppable juggernauts? When you finish a game of New FFW, how often will you complain that if only Regina's TL had been 10 instead of 12, you would won?

As a world with a history of being a subsector capital and major trade center for many centuries, a TL of 12 is more plausible than one of 10. It gives Regina much-needed clout to keep Efate from overtaking it in importance.

LOL- the population difference already does that - you want to retcon the population now too to fit your image of how Regina should be?

Um... the population of Efate is bigger than that of Regina (8 billion vs. 700 million), so it does the exact opposite of helping Regina stand up to Efate.

Also you are making a fundamental error here.

The duke of Regina gets the taxes from Efate too - enough to maintain his own private TL15 army - but then you know that. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't want Regina's civilian government to challenge his own authority and a 5 TL difference pretty much achieves it.

What in Charted Space are you on about?

Yet more Traveller canon you don't own but happily argue about?

Actually, it's the same Traveller canon that I don't have, namely Book 6. I do have World Builders' Handbook and it does describe Regina's TL as 12. What I can't tell you of my own knowledge is whether the description is the same as the one in Book 6.

Both DGP books were written after SMC was published and the authors obviously carried the error forward rather than going back to earlier, correct, material.

If WBH copied the writeup of Regina from Book 2, then they made a deliberate decision to change the TL from 10 to 12 to conform to the change in SMC rather than just carrying forward an error.

By the by - the dat given for the survey for the data in DGP material that gives Regina a TL of 12 is.... 1112 - post FFW.

Yes, you're right about that.

I love being right.

I'm leaving that one strictly alone.

Yet again your lack of knowledge about the basic rules staggers me. It states (just for fun I'll let you find where) that a world may import parts from worlds within it's sub sector to build ships at an added cost.

Wil has already dealt with that one.

Also, with the rate of technological change that is common in the Traveller universe, going a full tech level and more (from just under 11 to just over 12) in four years seems nothing short of miraculous (as in 'highly implausible') to me.

Again - you are making a false assumption that suits you.

I'm making assumptions, sure. And, surprise, surprise, they do suit me.

What part of "seems highly implausible to me" fails to convey that I'm expressing an opinion here? I was answering your question about why I thought TL12 was better than TL10 for Regina. 'Better' implies a value judgement, an opinion.

To go from TL10 to TL12 Regina doesn't have to carry out 3000 years of r and d.

You're making a false assumption here, namely that I think Regina needs 3000 years of R&D to go from TL10 to TL12. What I think is that it needs more than 4 years to upgrade its infrastructure from TL10 to TL12.

Over a few years it can import all the machinery and expertise from higher TL worlds to lift its manufacturing base to TL12.

That's your assumption. Based on the rate of technological change that is common in the Traveller universe, I disagree.

Meanwhile, you have still to demonstrate that changing Regina's tech level from 10 to 12 retroactively has any dire consequences. (Note the qualifier).


Hans

 

[rancke]

With HG1, Regina could build TL13 ships:

The technological level of the world holding the shipyard governs the construction capabilities: the tech level of a ship may not be more than 3 greater than the tech level of the shipyard.
page 21

We're not using HG1 any more.

Though it does suggest a reason why FS made the Kinunir a TL15 design. Provided the authors treated Regina's tech level as 12, of course. :devil:


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

And we're ... trying to make sense of this?

Welcome to Traveller.

(I think they are just enjoying spending time arguing about nothing, actually)

We're not using HG1 any more.

Though it does suggest a reason why FS made the Kinunir a TL15 design. Provided the authors treated Regina's tech level as 12, of course. :devil:


Hans

Regina is TL12 and has always been TL12. Freedom is slavery.


Here is a truely mangled descriptor:

It is important to
understand that technological level does
not necessarily imply that a world is
capable of creating or manufacturing
materials at that tech level; merely that
such items are present.
S3,pg39

So let's see, for example, that means a TL5 world doesn't necessarily manufacture TL5 stuff, no, they use TL9+ ships to find TL5 stuff somewhere on the market and import it.

:rofl:

 

[Gray Pennell]

Welcome to Traveller.

(I think they are just enjoying spending time arguing about nothing, actually)



So let's see, for example, that means a TL5 world doesn't necessarily manufacture TL5 stuff, no, they use TL9+ ships to find TL5 stuff somewhere on the market and import it.

:rofl:

I ll second those thoughts.

Woman goes to local world's version of auto shack. "Hi my Gator ATV alternator isnt working" Man behind the counter pops some gum "Umm well lets see we are out of Gator alternators. We can order one in" Woman impatiently "Well hummm when should it get here and how much will it cost?" Man looks up "Well we have to get it from Ogre 2 jumps away so about 2 months and 3000 cr." Woman "Oh my god"

 

[Dragoner]

I ll second those thoughts.

Woman goes to local world's version of auto shack. "Hi my Gator ATV alternator isnt working" Man behind the counter pops some gum "Umm well lets see we are out of Gator alternators. We can order one in" Woman impatiently "Well hummm when should it get here and how much will it cost?" Man looks up "Well we have to get it from Ogre 2 jumps away so about 2 months and 3000 cr." Woman "Oh my god"

Of course, that's why the Kinunir wasn't built on Rhylanor, Rhylanor's entire industrial production is devoted to black powder cannons, rotary phones and model T's to satisfy the needs of lower tech worlds!

It's the Pythonesque Imperium.

 

[mike wightman]

The very moement they fire up the meson guns against locals, they've lost, Mike. As i, they have to wipe out the population, because there will be NO surrender.

And... in the unlikely situation that the duke had to call on his huscarles to quell a total uprising he's already lost.

There is no way that the Dukes' two regiments can hold out against a world with 100,000,000 people. Even at the typical 1:1000 rate, that's still able to manage 1000 regiments.

Now you are cheating by increasing the ration to win

Now, looking at a mere 20 TL 10 regiments vs 2 TL15 ones, using the tables in FFW... 5 TL shifts the 1:5 to 1.5:1; at most 60% casualties, while the 5:1 goes down to 1:1, at most 50% casualties. Pretty fair odds. It's effectively an 11 strength regiment ... and the Reginan Corps to the 3I is NOT going to be the only troop strength... it shows 15C local defense troops - 15 Corps worth... a 1500 to 11 option. As a commander, I throw them in a corps at a time to avoid the 100:1 collumn; 9/36 = 10% damage to the huscarles, 4/36 of 20%, 3/36 of 30%, 2/36 of 40% , and 1/36 of 50%; aggregated: for an expected per Corps damage of 11%. The damage to the Corps is also expected to be 11%, so I swap in the second, full strength one, so it's now 100:10. Then again, at 100:9 - which drops my expected losses from them to being in the 1:1.5 column, but I'm still using the 1:1 for mine, so I expect 7% losses... but they still expect 11%; down to 8 strength, and facing a fresh Corps... again, but now they drop even more... I can chew them down. It takes on average 10 Corps, but Regina has 15... And a Corps worth of losses, and a nasty grudge.

And now you bend the rules to win...

Oh, and Mike, better look at SMC... the Duke's 4518th may not actually be TL15...
The Arty is MRL TL6-11 (Bk4). The RP-Y is TL13-15. (Bk4) Battle Dress is TL13 (TTB). Grav Tanks and G-Carriers are TL8 (TTB). That they're listed as TL15 in 5FW, but show no signs of being TL15 in SMC. Nothing in it requires TL15. And TL13 could be locally sustained. (at frightful expense.)

And in an interesting side note: The local units are allowed to have Imperial Marines transfer in for extended TDY... SMC p.41.

And the reason we are having this discussion in the first place is because the SMC isn't worth the paper its printed on.

Filled with typos, mistakes, broken designs. Hardly surprising the write up is wrong.

I think I'll stick to the JTAS write up

 

[mike wightman]

They do? Just how do you envision that working? Marc Miller issues a decree ordering all of us to get busy with the correction fluid and change our old CT books? The Canon Police showing up at your door at dawn and dragging you away because you haven't complied?

It's something that keeps me awake at night.

Different connotations, Mike. (Con|no|ta|tion -- look it up).

You just can't ever accept you are wrong can you - I am entirely correct to use the word.

So it doesn't actually make any difference to you, since you're not going to take a biro and correcting fluid to your copy of FFW.

Correct.

You seem to have a really hard time comprehending my question. Even if you did change Regina's TL to 12 (and the TL of its CruRons too), is it going to change the balance of the game radically? Does it turn Regina into an unconquerable fortress and its CruRons into unstoppable juggernauts? When you finish a game of New FFW, how often will you complain that if only Regina's TL had been 10 instead of 12, you would won?

And you seem to be unable to understand my answer. You are altering canon for the sake of a typo when there is no need to do so - unless you have written adventures pre- 1112 that require Regina to be TL12...

Um... the population of Efate is bigger than that of Regina (8 billion vs. 700 million), so it does the exact opposite of helping Regina stand up to Efate.

That was my point - reread it.

What in Charted Space are you on about?

Sigh

Actually, it's the same Traveller canon that I don't have, namely Book 6. I do have World Builders' Handbook and it does describe Regina's TL as 12. What I can't tell you of my own knowledge is whether the description is the same as the one in Book 6.

Do you have Grand Survey and Grand Census?

If WBH copied the writeup of Regina from Book 2, then they made a deliberate decision to change the TL from 10 to 12 to conform to the change in SMC rather than just carrying forward an error.

And if they just copied the error...

I'm leaving that one strictly alone.

Probably for the best

Wil has already dealt with that one.

Nah - I can deal with that argument too.

I'm making assumptions, sure. And, surprise, surprise, they do suit me.

What part of "seems highly implausible to me" fails to convey that I'm expressing an opinion here? I was answering your question about why I thought TL12 was better than TL10 for Regina. 'Better' implies a value judgement, an opinion.

You have your opinion and I have mine - I'm not going to change mine and you are not going to change yours.

You're making a false assumption here, namely that I think Regina needs 3000 years of R&D to go from TL10 to TL12. What I think is that it needs more than 4 years to upgrade its infrastructure from TL10 to TL12.

If it was borderline TL10/11 at the start of the FFW you have 10 years or so to shift the machinery and expertise - it's doable IMHO.

That's your assumption. Based on the rate of technological change that is common in the Traveller universe, I disagree.

Meanwhile, you have still to demonstrate that changing Regina's tech level from 10 to 12 retroactively has any dire consequences. (Note the qualifier).


Hans

It changes FFW, S:3, A:!, A:3 etc etc etc and round and roundd we go.