Side issue about Regina's TL

[mike wightman]

We're not using HG1 any more.

Though it does suggest a reason why FS made the Kinunir a TL15 design. Provided the authors treated Regina's tech level as 12, of course. :devil:


Hans

I see what you did there lol

 

[mike wightman]

Welcome to Traveller.

(I think they are just enjoying spending time arguing about nothing, actually)




:rofl:

Bingo - that pretty much sums it up perfectly.

 

[rancke]

You seem to have a really hard time comprehending my question.

And you seem to be unable to understand my answer.

No, Mike, I understand it well enough. The problem I have with it is that it's not an answer to my question.

You are altering canon for the sake of a typo when there is no need to do so.

No, Mike, I'm not. The alteration has already been done and not by me. It's you that keep claiming, over and over again, that it should be altered back when there is no reason to do so.

- unless you have written adventures pre- 1112 that require Regina to be TL12...

Not adventures, no. I have written some background material based on the assumption that Regina remains TL12 throughout most of its history. Based on the current revised reality, of course.

You have your opinion and I have mine - I'm not going to change mine and you are not going to change yours.

I didn't ask you to. I asked you why it's such a big deal to you. Which, I know, I know, you told me it wasn't a big deal to you. You sure act like it's a big deal to you, though.

Meanwhile, you have still to demonstrate that changing Regina's tech level from 10 to 12 retroactively has any dire consequences. (Note the qualifier).

It changes FFW, S:3, A:!, A:3 etc etc etc

Oh, shoot! You ignored the qualifier. Again!

...and round and roundd we go.

Only because you keep answering the question "what difference does it make?" instead of the question "what significant difference does it make?". I can't understand why the distinction is too subtle for you to grasp. It seems perfectly graspable to me.

But if you really are unable to understand the difference, don't worry about it. Let's just forget about it.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Mike, you're the one bending rules.

I'm just taking what's in the book and using it. Regina has 1 offworld Corps, and 15 more on world, according to the map and counters.

I'm then looking at the probabilities and telling your the mathematically expected results. I attack with 10 CORPS, and don't let them stick in tight. If I go with the 100:1, the Huscarles die much quicker, but do much more overall damage.

And when Hans and I agree on something, it's usually the outlier who has a problem. At the moment, you're not engaging in argument, but rant.

 

[mike wightman]

No, Mike, I understand it well enough. The problem I have with it is that it's not an answer to my question.

Ok - for the third time - or is it more than that now - changing Regina's TL alters the FFW board game for no good reason. It alters LBB6 for no good reason.

No, Mike, I'm not. The alteration has already been done and not by me. It's you that keep claiming, over and over again, that it should be altered back when there is no reason to do so.

I have stated many times that I accept the retcon. However I do not agree it was necessary and more it was based on an error rather than deliberation.

I would love to see the powers that be rule that Regina's TL was raised during/shortly after the FFW thus preserving all cain, but unfortunately I was not privy to the inner machinations that lead to the acceptance of a needles retcon based on a mistake.

Not adventures, no. I have written some background material based on the assumption that Regina remains TL12 throughout most of its history. Based on the current revised reality, of course.

And if they are up to the standard of your usual work I will use them no problem at all, I'm actually a great admirer of your attention to detail (Sword Worlds for GT remains a model of what a good sourcebook should look like IMHO).

I didn't ask you to. I asked you why it's such a big deal to you. Which, I know, I know, you told me it wasn't a big deal to you. You sure act like it's a big deal to you, though.

It is a very difficult thing to convert true meaning in type on a forum like this. I enjoy the discussion but remember I already accept defeat - doesn't stop me from arguing my point though.

Oh, shoot! You ignored the qualifier. Again!

Explain please.

Only because you keep answering the question "what difference does it make?" instead of the question "what significant difference does it make?". I can't understand why the distinction is too subtle for you to grasp. It seems perfectly graspable to me.

Now now, that's very close to a personal attack questioning my intelligence

I could make the counter claim.

But if you really are unable to understand the difference, don't worry about it. Let's just forget about it.


Hans

It makes a significant difference to the FFW game.

 

[mike wightman]

Mike, you're the one bending rules.

Really? Which ones?

I'm just taking what's in the book and using it. Regina has 1 offworld Corps, and 15 more on world, according to the map and counters.

I don't recall a rule that allows you to split forces in the way you describe - I was under the impression they stacked and you use the tables for the combined factor.

I'm then looking at the probabilities and telling your the mathematically expected results. I attack with 10 CORPS, and don't let them stick in tight. If I go with the 100:1, the Huscarles die much quicker, but do much more overall damage.

I'm not doubting your statistical analysis - just the legality of splitting units the way you describe.

And when Hans and I agree on something, it's usually the outlier who has a problem. At the moment, you're not engaging in argument, but rant.

This isn't a rant - nor did I start the thread.

Still if you want the discussion to end fair enough.

 

[Carlobrand]

Canon wars!!:devil:

Just out of curiosity, is the Errata 7 considered canon or not? 'Cause, I'm thinking if this is an argument over what IS, and Errata's canon, then there's nothing to argue over: Regina's TL12 per Errata, end of story. Which is not how I would have handled it - explaining to a player why the data in his deeply cherished, much beloved, carefully protected vintage copy of the rulebook isn't really the rule anymore, is just a pain in the kabongas - but I don't get a vote on stuff like that; I'm just some guy with way too much free time on his hands.

However, if this is an argument over what SHOULD BE, then it SHOULD BE whatever suits your fancy. Some of us like TL12 1105 Regina but, clearly, some of us don't.

I don't recall a rule that allows you to split forces in the way you describe - I was under the impression they stacked and you use the tables for the combined factor...

FFW: Regina has a 1C-10 Colonial corps marker, little red square with white print, available for transport to other worlds. In addition, Regina has 15C (1500) native defense batallions reflected on the game map. Two distinct units. Meanwhile, the 4518th is set as six separate 1-batallion units - tough little puppies, 5 of them are armored and all six are elites, so the six of them are worth 22 regular batallions.

"A firing unit may split its combat factor to fire at several units. A unit is not required to fire during surface combat, but enemy units may attack it even if it does not fire. Each unit is attacked separately; two or more units may not be attacked in a combined attack. ... There is no requirement that all enemy units at a world be attacked ..."

The net effect is that the Regina force has quite a bit of latitude as to how to divide its attack. Certainly the 1C-10 unit can divide its attack among the 6 (or fewer) Marine units while the planetary batallions sat the battle out - but that would not save the planetary batallions from being attacked in turn, so there's not much point in this context. Makes more sense if there's a TL difference among attackers, since the combined attack is governed by the tech level of the contributor with the lowest tech level; you want that low tech unit sitting out when he reduces the odds too much for your high tech unit.

So ... sure you can, but there's no point in it.

Basically you've got 1600 batallions against 6 elites, 5 of which are armored. At TL-10 - and unless they are unusually lucky or reinforcements arrive (barring bad luck, the battle takes more than a month to conclude, adequate time to send for help if you've got a ship with good "legs") - it's Thermopylae, not Rourke's Drift. Marines lose, but roughly half the Reginans on average go home in pine boxes after a fight that's going to become the stuff of legends. Of course, that's not factoring in the SDBs or the ten Colonial cruisers at the naval base.

Politically, I can't help thinking the Reginans'd be having second thoughts after the first couple hundred thousand casualties; losing over a thousand men for every enemy APC destroyed tends to sap morale. However, I still haven't quite figured out what would persuade ALL the planet's native forces AND the colonial expeditionary corps to turn against the Duke, especially when the likely result - win or lose - is an Imperial fleet overhead while additional Marine units land to squash the revolt and track down the ringleaders. Does not do to let people get away with that kind of thing, even if they have the best of reasons - at least not in my TU. Strikes me that with the full weight of Imperial authority behind him, the Duke doesn't need to restrain the local tech advancement - and without it, the Duke should be more concerned with external enemies than internal dissent.

 

[aramis]

Don's errata is all approved by Marc - hence why it sometimes takes a while to get stuff into it.

 

[McPerth]

As a world with a history of being a subsector capital and major trade center for many centuries, a TL of 12 is more plausible than one of 10. It gives Regina much-needed clout to keep Efate from overtaking it in importance.

There are plenty of instances in our RW about capitals that are overshadowed by other cities, more important than them, but yet the capital is kept (for historical or political reasons).

Oh, and Mike, better look at SMC... the Duke's 4518th may not actually be TL15...
The Arty is MRL TL6-11 (Bk4). The RP-Y is TL13-15. (Bk4) Battle Dress is TL13 (TTB). Grav Tanks and G-Carriers are TL8 (TTB). That they're listed as TL15 in 5FW, but show no signs of being TL15 in SMC. Nothing in it requires TL15. And TL13 could be locally sustained. (at frightful expense.)

After so showing us about the FFW rules to resolve it, you question the huscarles counters in FFW (TL 15 battalions)?

 

[aramis]

There are plenty of instances in our RW about capitals that are overshadowed by other cities, more important than them, but yet the capital is kept (for historical or political reasons).

But such capitals generally are not also loaded with bases and yards.

After so showing us about the FFW rules to resolve it, you question the huscarles counters in FFW (TL 15 battalions)?

I generally put the board games lower down my trust list than the roleplaying supplements. If I'm going to attribute error, I'm going to attribute it first to the board game component. And between SMC and 5FW, there is an error... exactly what that error is, or even if it's just one, is a matter debatable, but that there is an error between them isn't. I find Regina more believable as a TL12 world than as a 10.... at which point the huscarles are toast much sooner. And if SMC is right about the equipment (dubious), then it is quite possibly as low as TL13.

 

[rancke]

There are plenty of instances in our RW about capitals that are overshadowed by other cities, more important than them, but yet the capital is kept (for historical or political reasons).

I'm not gainsaying that, though the analogy is not very close (economic relationship of a city vis-a-vis its country is not a whole lot like the economic relationship of a world vis-a-vis its duchy). I was answering the question of why I thought a TL of 12 was better than a TL of 10, not why I though a TL of 10 couldn't possibly be true (I don't think that).


Hans

 

[rancke]

But such capitals generally are not also loaded with bases and yards.

Nor are they usually major trade hubs.


Hans

 

[aramis]

TL12 for regina makes more sense than 10 overall - the retcon is incompletely applied in the errata, and I suspect the reason for that is simple - the effort required to correct it. It's notoriously hard to correct die-cut counters due to the glossy stock.

But, I'll note, there wasn't even a consistent UWP format, either...