Skill cap?

[BytePro]

Point-buy-on-purpose gets players what they want. Now I'm curious what the player expects for each skill check, because now dice are involved. Do they start fudging with that Mongoose mechanic to get their way there as well?

They don't need to with MgT, as dice are hardly involved when using a structured mechanic with a PC starting a +8 DM (and more) for just skill+attribute, not even counting any gear, or timing DMs...

With MgT, when intentionally wanting to play an older character without high skills, using RAW random char-gen, I had to avoid skill levels by picking off personal advancement - which offsets aging effects even with drugs avoided. Ended up with a level-3 skill and a +2 attrib for an automatic +5 on a primary skill check avoiding all other toolkit/computer aid DMs. (So I RP'ed an alcoholic - suggesting to Ref an automatic -2 DM on many checks. )

Basically, the RAW is (intentionally or otherwise) designed to facilitate the powergamer and wargamer. Story and role play focused players who prefer 'average joes' may need to tip-toe around the RAW and stick to low terms. Or, be forced to point-buy if the Ref allows. Refs may need to house rule if they want to ensure the mechanics don't remove all the challenge of a game - especially with pickup Players (ala conventions).

Nothing wrong with this, per se - just depends on the type of game one wants. In the market, a lot of gamers like this style of game. <shrug> CTs chargen (especially LBB1-3) and mechanics avoided this all together - making it very hard to actually play 'super-heros' or powergame without making house rules. Even if chargen resulted in higher skill levels - the task mechanics don't universally provide for +skill level DMs, nor added attribute DMs.

As to the earlier post about odds being 'cosmic' - the odds with 2d6 never change - in the worst case its 1 in 36. Doesn't matter how many times one rolls. So just having maxed benefits for specific rolls doesn't ensure any additional rarity in the combination of rolls during chargen.

 

[Shonner]

dice are hardly involved when using a structured mechanic with a PC starting a +8 DM (and more) for just skill+attribute, not even counting any gear, or timing DMs...

You're doing it wrong.

 

[BytePro]

Nope.

 

[CosmicGamer]

You mean odds are nearly impossible.

It's fine to have your own opinion but for me, a chance of better than 1 in a thousand for a 3 term character to get a level 6 skill is "low odds" and not "nearly impossible". Winning the lottery is "nearly impossible" but millions of people think it is still a high enough possibility to play and think about what they will do if/when they win.

Perhaps you missed the point of my statement. Limiting terms does not put a hard limit on skills. If limiting maximum skill levels is a concern for someone, they may still want to think about what they will do if/when it does occur - "low odds" or "nearly impossible" or whatever anyone else wants to call it.

At the time I was trying to keep it simple and didn't want to get into all the other variables like events, mustering out and getting something like a weapon multiple times and taking it as a skill (I've had more than one character gain multiple skill levels from this), rank skills and so on.

 

[CosmicGamer]

As to the earlier post about odds being 'cosmic' - the odds with 2d6 never change - in the worst case its 1 in 36. Doesn't matter how many times one rolls. So just having maxed benefits for specific rolls doesn't ensure any additional rarity in the combination of rolls during chargen.

We are talking about rolls on skill tables so it's just 1d6.

Yes, I agree that the odds I roll a 6 and a 6 with 2d6 is 1 in 36 each time rolled. What if I just roll one die twice? Since it is 1d6 and it

Doesn't matter how many times one rolls

will the odds I roll 6 then 6 be 1 in 6? Perhaps I've been rolling my dice wrong all these years.

We are talking about the probability of something happening multiple times. The odds of rolling the same skill on a skill chart 6 times might be considered 6d6 odds.

 

[BytePro]

So if you roll the dice one at a time does that change the odds to 1 in 6! :file_21:

Yep - your odds on 1d6 are 1 in 6.

Your odds on 2d6 for any given sum are, at worst, 1 in 36. Each roll is independent of any other roll (excepting physical imperfections) - one's odds of rolling a 12 after rolling a 12 are no different because of that fact.

We are talking about rolls on skill tables so it's just 1d6.

The promotion and event tables are 2d6 and factor in.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The promotion and event tables are 2d6 and factor in.

Of course they do. When I said

We are talking about rolls on skill tables so it's just 1d6.

You had only mentioned 2d6 odds. The word just meant it was just 1d6 and not 2d6 for skills tables. Not that just skill tables were a factor and nothing else mattered. I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious that there were other factors.

The actual odds on a 3 term character having a level 6 skill depends on the characters stats, qualifying for a career, what career? What's the survival roll. Promotion. Events. Benefits. Skill table rolls. And more factors. It's beyond my math skill, intellectual and educational ability to calculate this without doing some research.

We had been using terms like "low odds" and "nearly impossible" then, BytePro, you started giving actual odds but I think you are over simplifying it and I'm not sure what your point is.

How does

Your odds on 2d6 for any given sum are, at worst, 1 in 36. Each roll is independent of any other roll (excepting physical imperfections) - one's odds of rolling a 12 after rolling a 12 are no different because of that fact.

help us. Yes, it's true. We are not disagreeing on this. Please explain why you give this information?

The bottom line is that there is a chance for a character to gain a high skill level and if a GM wants a hard limit to skills they need to house rule it because the term limit rule in the RAW won't guarantee it.

 

[aramis]

Let's see...
2 skills per term... skill not on promotion nor events... All advacement rolls made...
Picks same table each time: (1/36)^terms
L4 in 2T = 1/1296
L6 in 3T = 1/46656
L8 in 4T = 1/1679616

 

[Cryton]

Lets not forget the package choice and connections rules from MgT. those choices alone can get you a +3 levels to a skill. So a skill level of 3 or more on a one term character, is not only easily possible, but highly probable should a player choose to go that way with just those three choices.

Hence the OP: Do you impose a skill level limit in your games?

 

[Dragoner]

Lets not forget the package choice and connections rules from MgT. those choices alone can get you a +3 levels to a skill. So a skill level of 3 or more on a one term character, is not only easily possible, but highly probable should a player choose to go that way with just those three choices.

Hence the OP: Do you impose a skill level limit in your games?

Connections are limited to two connections only and do not let you go above skill three.

Topic tax: Given mong's TD resolution, you can pile on the minuses to a check, generally I haven't faced any skill level 5 players, but then again I don't think it would be a real problem in as much having to challenge them more. The real issue is balance within the party, since if it is unbalanced, higher skill level characters will get more attention due to having greater ability.

 

[MCEvans]

Just an FYI:
There are some computer programs that can do character generation and in my use of some of these I have created characters, having the skills random, receiving skills in the 5-9 level range
The most notable paths; medical school then IN support or merchant Purser will usually result in Medic 5-6 by active term 2; college economics then merchant Sales can result in Broker 5-7 & Trader 3-5 by term 3 or 4, you get the idea
I house rule 5 as cap, higher is possible with a good reason. Like medical 7 (4 Human, 2 vargr & 1 general exomed) this would allow a skill to be high but still limit its abilities.

Just some ideas

 

[BytePro]

Lets not forget the package choice and connections rules from MgT.

IIRC, I took Package skills to mean level-1 only - i.e. not level increasing (just like many Rank skills). But the rules aren't explicit. Even the Connections rule is only clarified in the 'Finalize Connections' paragraph - limiting to level 3 as Dragoner mentioned, and also disallowing JoT for Connections. An obvious attempt to address a perceived issue.

...I'm sorry, I thought it was obvious that there were other factors. ... I'm not sure what your point is. ...

CosmicGamer - I was supporting your assertion that - 'a chance of better than 1 in a thousand for a 3 term character to get a level 6 skill is "low odds" and not "nearly impossible"'.

Re: my 'Your odds on 2d6 for any given sum are, at worst, 1 in 36. Each roll is independent of any other roll (excepting physical imperfections) - one's odds of rolling a 12 after rolling a 12 are no different because of that fact.' - emphasis on 'at worst' because even with those odds, Shonner's odds assertions are not supported (unless one assumes odds are somehow magically affected by historical rolls).

I also pointed out, some skill tables (such as Scientist) even offer a 1 in 3 chance of getting a skill. IME, rank and especially event skills can significantly affect skill level, as well.

Bottom line, with MgT chargen the odds aren't even 1 in thousands - more like one in dozens, IME, of rolling a skill-4 or higher without really trying - and with the structured mechanics this can be very significant...

...
Topic tax: Given mong's TD resolution, you can pile on the minuses to a check, generally I haven't faced any skill level 5 players, but then again I don't think it would be a real problem in as much having to challenge them more. The real issue is balance within the party, since if it is unbalanced, higher skill level characters will get more attention due to having greater ability.

Yep, sure you can house rule to compensate. Since that is what you would be doing by applying extra penalties to the near 100 RAW check definitions provided in the Core rules alone...

As you pointed out, the downside with this approach is you're selectively penalizing PCs (i.e. Players) for higher skills from chargen.

I don't see high skill levels as a 'problem' per se - while the odds are lower, CT allowed for them too and that worked for me. Its the combination of other DMs, starting with attribute automatically in the RAW checks not to mention enhancements, gear, timing and situation. Its not just a question of automatic success for so many documented checks - with MgT it means high chances of 'Exceptional' success. Hence, the relevance of the OP's question related to capping skill levels...

For those who desire it, with a bit of effort and house rules, one can certainly compensate for the inadequacies of any RPG mechanics and play the game the way they want.

 

[rancke]

Yep, sure you can house rule to compensate.

And that is the main point in any discussion about whether a rule works or not. How does it work without relying on the referee? After all, the rule "Roll a die; on a result of 1,-3, the attempt fails; on a roll of 4-6, the attempt succeeds" can be improved no end by house rules. That doesn't mean it's a good rule in itself[*].

[*] That's not to say it doesn't work well enough in some situtations. But as a general rule it lacks a certain flexibility. Nothing that a good referee can't compensate for, though.​

Bottom line, most times the argument "the referee can compensate for any deficiencies of the rule" is a really, really poor argument.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

Yep, sure you can house rule to compensate. Since that is what you would be doing by applying extra penalties to the near 100 RAW check definitions provided in the Core rules alone...

I am not talking changing the checks themselves, but the situations for the pc, putting them in more difficult and above situations; which is still within the province of being GM and not house ruling. I avoid house ruling if at all possible, the problem becomes one of balance, if the adventure started out as average joe, but then after a few characters getting "supers" like lvl 5 skill (depends on in what though), it becomes superfriends, then you have to adjust for difficulty.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Re: my 'Your odds on 2d6 for any given sum are, at worst, 1 in 36. Each roll is independent of any other roll (excepting physical imperfections) - one's odds of rolling a 12 after rolling a 12 are no different because of that fact.'

To me, it seamed like you meant the odds of getting 1 level or 6 levels in 3 terms is the same "at worst, 1 in 36"

I was supporting your assertion... [snip] ...Bottom line, with MgT chargen the odds aren't even 1 in thousands - more like one in dozens

While I appreciated the support, I was trying to point out that the information you provided was incomplete and I feel you were extreme to the opposite end of the spectrum, and still are depending on the number of terms, type of chargen, and your definition of dozens.

I also pointed out, some skill tables (such as Scientist) even offer a 1 in 3 chance of getting a skill.

Medic, Art careers, Pilot and Engineer in the Navy...

IME, rank and especially event skills can significantly affect skill level, as well.

It's true that all things are a factor in the overall chance of obtaining a certain skill level during chargen. Significant is a loose term and it may be applicable to Events, for some careers, but I don't think so for rank skills. Benefits can also be significant for certain skills.

RANK
The Army does have a rank skill at rank 0 which gives someones Gun Combat skill a jump start. Skills from ranks are at level 1 (*1) so by the second term, for the OMG you must have gained two levels in this skill each term character, I don't think rank skills would be a factor.

EVENT
I believe most of the events that provide skills only give the skill out at level 1. Scout events (core rules) only have one event that allows leveling a skill up past level 1. Event 10. Less than a 10% chance. The Army is one of the better careers for increasing levels with events of 6 and 8. This would be a 28% chance.

However, I don't recall events giving out skill boosts without requiring a task check first, so the chance goes down. This is based on characteristics and usually a current skill level so It's too hard for me to compute.

BENEFIT
A 3 term character promoted each term will get 5 benefit rolls. (*2)

Roll a Ship’s Boat as a benefit more than once and increase Pilot (small craft). Rolling a weapon as a benefit more than once lets you add a skill level. The drifter and scout careers have weapon as a benefit twice.

(*1) The rare occasion, like Entertainment career in the core rules, where the level 1 is not present for rank skills is bad editing in my opinion.
(*2) Events and other factors could alter the number of benefits.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I am not talking changing the checks themselves, but the situations for the pc, putting them in more difficult and above situations; which is still within the province of being GM and not house ruling. I avoid house ruling if at all possible, the problem becomes one of balance, if the adventure started out as average joe, but then after a few characters getting "supers" like lvl 5 skill (depends on in what though), it becomes superfriends, then you have to adjust for difficulty.

In most cases I don't see a skill at a high level as much of a problem. A high level of skill in one area means less skills spread around. All those skills that are unskilled give plenty of opportunities for humility. Chances for other characters to do their thing.

For me it's a role playing game. Let the highly skilled character excel at what they do best - it is part of who the character is and they should get opportunities to role play it.

Being average can be a problem too. In one game there was a character that had a couple level 2 skills and a handful of level 1's. With primary characteristic DMs, there was no skill where some other character in the group was not just as competent or better. The player of this character was not very happy.

 

[Dragoner]

Being average can be a problem too. In one game there was a character that had a couple level 2 skills and a handful of level 1's. With primary characteristic DMs, there was no skill where some other character in the group was not just as competent or better. The player of this character was not very happy.

Exactly the balance I'm talking about.

I think some of this becomes talking past each other because of the perspective of abstract looking at the rules vs. actually playing the game.

 

[BytePro]

To me, it seamed like you meant the odds of getting 1 level or 6 levels in 3 terms is the same "at worst, 1 in 36"

That would be silly - and not what I posted if read properly.

'Dozens' means multiples of 12. I've generated less than 2 dozen characters (I usually just spec NPCs) - 2 had skill-4 and 1 had skill-5. Their terms ranged from 2 to 10 (the 10 was an oddity due to two forced re-enlists - and only maxed to skill-3 due to intentionally avoiding skills.) with the bulk being 3 to 5 terms. One skill-4 was a 3 term, I don't recall the terms of the other one nor the skill-5, but they were probably 3-4 since they made an impression. At any rate - no where near 1 in thousands - much less 'cosmically' unlikely per Shonner. If you restrict the topic to 2 term-ers with skill-5s, that is different - but I never posted such, nor did I respond directly to such. In my experience, Traveller PCs trend to a 3-4 term median.

My experience was without trying to min/max and without counting package skills (which I consider level-1 and not upgrades), nor connection skills, nor any skills from mustering.

Significant is a loose term and it may be applicable to Events, for some careers, but I don't think so for rank skills.

Yes 'significant' is intentionally 'loose' - so is a 'high level' as it depends on how many terms - and is really only relevant when considered with the rest of the mechanics, which give skill levels their 'significance'. I only used rank skills as level 1.

Not sure what books you may be referring to, but if you look in the Core book, there are a fair number of skill increases (including 'increase any') depending on career. There are also a number of automatic (no extra check) required skill gains on events. In any event (pun) there are plenty of chances for events to provide skill increases or initial skill in first term.

Bottom line is I've regularly generated characters with skill level and attribute DMs giving +5 and greater DM to primary skills - without trying. Even a casual look at the rules supports this notion if one is familiar with odds - and it appears to be a design intent. I consider such high, especially given the defined checks and considering the other positive DMs that may be applicable. YYMV.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Hi guys,

First off, Traveller is supposed to be a tool kit game, so it is whatever you want it to be - house rules should not be rare by any means. However, some of my thoughts on the issues raised here.

1. It is worth re-stating that when a given skill is listed as '1' (as in Steward-1), that means you get it at level 1. You do not gain another level of it, so if you already have it at level 1, hard cheese This knocks out a lot of bonuses you might otherwise get from events, ranks, and packages.

2. I have been playing this Traveller since before it was released (!) and, in that time, I have seen less than a handful of characters with level 4 in any skill, and none with level 5 or higher (games of Judge Dredd being the exception, as that often produces very specialised characters - not an issue in that setting). Now, either myself and all my players are really unlucky, people here are really lucky, or something else is going on

3. You often get characters stacked up in one skill or another, even if they do not have the raw levels (because of a bonus from a characteristic, or equipment, or something else). You can often get, for example, a character who never misses with his slug pistol.

Whopee, I say Levels in one skill mean less levels in another. The gunslinger is going to be useless trying to blag his way past customs (perhaps trying to get that same pistol through...).

Being not just good but exceptional at one or two things in Traveller is rarely an issue, and it certainly fits the 'Firefly crew paradigm' that we often use as a yardstick.

If nothing else, that phalanx of Enemies and Rivals players tend to build up during character creation (and add to during play!) can render a lot of super skills moot. I have had groups avoid entire sub-sectors just because one of them had an Enemy last seen on one of the planets there!

Anyway, remember this is _your_ Traveller. Just giving you some observations from mine

 

[CosmicGamer]

Bottom line is I've regularly generated characters with skill level and attribute DMs giving +5 and greater DM to primary skills - without trying. Even a casual look at the rules supports this notion if one is familiar with odds - and it appears to be a design intent. I consider such high, especially given the defined checks and considering the other positive DMs that may be applicable. YYMV.

2. I have been playing this Traveller since before it was released (!) and, in that time, I have seen less than a handful of characters with level 4 in any skill, and none with level 5 or higher (games of Judge Dredd being the exception, as that often produces very specialised characters - not an issue in that setting). Now, either myself and all my players are really unlucky, people here are really lucky, or something else is going on

In my experience, a rough observation would be that a skill level equal to the number of terms generated would not be too uncommon yet also should not be expected. A 3 term character with a skill level of 6 though... I have generated a couple characters with level 5 skills - both were weapons skills that were increased from multiple weapons benefit rolls. I have also started chargen with a specific character in mind such as a pilot and engineer and after three terms gained nothing over the level 0 basic training skill - and these are tables where the skills show up twice! More often, I get a character somewhere in the middle.