Skill Clarification

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

I just prepared an NPC for a game I will run ver soon and have a question concerning the Pilot skill. The character has Vessel/Grav and Vessel/Starship. Do I put skill points in Pilot for each feat (Pilot/Grav: 4 & Pilot/Starship: 4)? Or do I point all the points into Pilot (Pilot: 8)?

Thank you!

 

[veltyen]

Just pilot.

I think the concept is that once the basics are known (where the go button is, how the pitch and yaw controls work) then flying is a translatable skill after that point.

 

[stofsk]

The official rules don't say anything about this, so you can go with 'just pilot' and relax because the rules lawyers won't be out in force.

Although, if you want to house rule it, that could be intriguing.

Pilot The Skill seems to represent the Basics, exactly how Veltyen recounts. That would make the Vessel feats your licence to fly various vehicles (fixed wing aircraft vs rotary wing aircraft vs grav craft vs spacecraft vs starships). The possible point of confusion comes from how the feat confers pilot as a class skill, which is a bit like putting the cart before the horse, and perhaps the reason why this question has been asked. The way the rules are phrased lends itself somewhat open to interpretation.

An alternate way to look at it is the various vessel feats for flying craft have prereqs for them, including a rank in Pilot.

But I get the feeling I'm overanalysing the situation. If a y/n answer is what you require, go with Veltyen. He has the virtue of having the rules on his side.

 

[veltyen]

Oh, I'm all for house rules. I use so many when I run traveller I'd better be

If you feel it makes more sense for YTU that characters have pilot(starship), pilot(grav) then do it.

 

[Valarian]

I see gaining the feat as the translatable part. Then you apply your piloting skill to each craft you're qualified on. The only variation on this is the ability to pilot Ship's Boats with the Vessel/Starships feat at half skill.

 

[Commander Truestar]

What bothers me about this is...
The idea that every teen comes into adulthood in their society with the ability to use transportation common to their society/tech level is the basis for this.
But an 18 yr old in from a high world gaining the Pilot skill which is a basis for Starship Piloting?? I think that is a bit much.

I can see a "Driving" skill or feat being availible to allow for generic operation of a basic transport.

Then have Pilot formore complex things like Spacecraft/Starship control and operation.

As it stands now, the way this works is equivelant to saying the basic skills needed to drive your dad's sedan are the same as those needed to pilot a space shuttle....and then all you need is specific "where are the buttons and switches" training on the Space Shuttle...

Anyone else see this?

 

[veltyen]

I see that as a little cultural artifact. Personally I think that any culture with grav is unlikely to have user-operable vehicles at all.

Buy a robo-gravcar, or catch an auto-taxi like everyone else. The nightmare of millions of human error prone grav vehicles moving through a crowded 3 dimensional space gives me the willies. Not for the loss of life, for the expense that writing off grav vehicles would add up to.

Of course, the pilot-0 needed for a qualification isn't really enough to write home about, and anyone doing civilian driving is unlikely to put any more points into it.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Truestar:
Anyone else see this?

From our standards, it would be insane. However, according to the rules our TL7-8 planet we suffer an EDU penalty of -2 or -1, and it gets worse when you look at the lower tech regions of the world.

That means that the higher the Tech Level the better the Education. TL 12 is when you start getting bonuses to education, and it only gets higher. Belters live and breath in outer space. Furthermore, Pilot is modified by Intelligence as well as Dexterity. Dex is obviously the stick-work, while Intelligence implies plotting a course, or programming the auto-pilot computer.

 

[veltyen]

Pilot is fairly limited in the number of classes that have that skill.

Belter, Merchant, Professional, Traveller and the Services are the only time pilot is a class skill, and it isn't on any world skill lists.

This means your space shuttle pilot has a much higher maximum rank in pilot then most people can aspire too. At 1st level this is a 2 point difference, going up by another point every 2 levels. 3 at 3rd level, 4 at 5th level and so on.

Point the vehicle in the right direction is not perform a hostile insertion.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Veltyen said:
> Pilot is fairly limited in the number of classes > that have that skill.
>
> Belter, Merchant, Professional, Traveller and
> the Services are the only time pilot is a class
> skill, and it isn't on any world skill lists.
>
<snip>

Ok,
Maybe I am reading this wrong...
On the Page 33 "World Feats" chart High Tech and Very High Tech BOTH get " Vessel/Grav** " and if you read the ** footnote it says:
"Automatically Gains the Pilot skil(cross class unless otherwize noted as a class skill)at rank 0.

So if that is correct that ALL High tech an Very high tech worlds get the Pilot Skill along with their vehicle feat.

Now this is exactly where my point about driving is appropriate. With the current rules, our hapless 18 yr old is just a "familiarization class" away from piloting a Starship!!!!

S/He already is a pilot and just needs to know where the buttons are in a ship's bridge.

This is worse yet when you consider your" automated grav vehicle" post. Now an 18 yr old on a high tech world is a "Pilot 0" simply because he can enter terrestrial coordinates into a navigational display and hit the "Go" button and yet the current rules seem to place this dead-head just a "familiarization class" away from piloting a Starship!!!!

Or am I reading this wrong?

 

[veltyen]

Now this is exactly where my point about driving is appropriate. With the current rules, our hapless 18 yr old is just a "familiarization class" away from piloting a Starship!!!!

Yup. The game is traveller. Someone needs to be able to drive the bus.

On the other hand.

Atmospheric insertion is DC variable or DIE
Orbital Insertion is DC 15 or DIE
Docking is DC 20 with extensive damage to both vessel and likely loss of life.

So how does the 18 year old with Pilot-0 pilot a starship without anyone more qualified taking over?

I consider qualified pilots IMTU to have a minimum of Skill Rank 5.

the current rules seem to place this dead-head just a "familiarization class" away from piloting a Starship!!!!

You seem to be missing the point that while able to pilot a starship, they cannot do it well. Pilot-0 and V/Starship is fine for running a dog-watch where nothing is expected to go wrong and the entity on the bridge can call the real pilot if something untoward happens.

 

[Commander Truestar]

I do not miss your point but you miss mine.....

My point is that the Pilot skill, as written does make it possible!

Where as seaparating relatively simplistic vehicles into "Driver skill" based and Complex vehicles into "Pilot skill" based categories is more proper IMO.

As for what you consider proper IYTU, there are millions of drivers I do not consider qualified to drive on roads much highways...

And as for the "get in, give directions and go" character...that is a "Passenger" not a driver or a pilot...ask any Taxi driver you want.

 

[BetterThanLife]

One thing to keep in mind, before you start trying to split up the pilot skill. Feats are not as common as you might think. While a character can have multiple vessels that he can use pilot in, he won't have other feats. You can also specialize your skill with various feats. But you are using up those valuable feats to do that as well. In my experience most players only wind up with Grav and one other.

 

[veltyen]

Assume I have Pilot-0 (earned from many hours playing somewhat realistic flight sims)

I can attempt to land a 747.

The likely outcome is that everyone dies.

How is this a problem?

Being able to attempt the task does not mean I will succeed, or even realistically expect to succeed.

Where as seaparating relatively simplistic vehicles into "Driver skill" based and Complex vehicles into "Pilot skill" based categories is more proper IMO.

Instead of 3d vs 2d movement as it is currently?

Pilot-0 is really not that big a deal. All it does is make pilot an untrained skill for high TL worlds. I certainly wouldn't let anyone without a somewhat higher pilot, and the appropriate vehicle proficiency near my starship flight controls.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have easier to use controls a task DC modifier instead of classifying it as a different skill?

That said, there are ground vehicles with insanely difficult controls. You use the drive skill for hovercraft for example, the controls for which on a large commercial machine look awfully similar to any top end aircraft.

Maybe I am confused here, but I cannot see what your objection is.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Truestar:
I do not miss your point but you miss mine.....

My point is that the Pilot skill, as written does make it possible!

But wildly improbable. Pilo at skill rank 0, with an average Dex or Int score of 10, would need to roll a natural 20 in order to do a simple docking maneuver (whom a qualified pilot should be expected to do in his sleep). Orbital insertions are DC 15, or you burn up.

Where as seaparating relatively simplistic vehicles into "Driver skill" based and Complex vehicles into "Pilot skill" based categories is more proper IMO.

They are separated like that. Driver is for wheeled vehicles, while pilot is for aircraft - grav vehicles, fixed or rotary wings, space craft or starships.

As for what you consider proper IYTU, there are millions of drivers I do not consider qualified to drive on roads much highways...

And as for the "get in, give directions and go" character...that is a "Passenger" not a driver or a pilot...ask any Taxi driver you want.

You're playing a character, and it's assumed he or she will be a cut above the average. The vast majority of people in Traveller don't even leave their homeplanet, or if they do it's as a passenger onboard a liner or some such vehicle. But your characters are meant to be a bit better than that, ergo they'll probably have the pilot skill. Not every character will have it too.

 

[Commander Truestar]

Better than life..
What do you mean "Feats are not as common as you
might think. While a character can have multiple
vessels that he can use pilot in, he won't have
other feats." ?
I get the vehicle/Grav feat + Pilot-0 for coming from a High tech or better world. I do not loose anything for it and I have it before Prior History.

And Stofsk, Everyone from that kind of world gets it... Not just characters.

As for difficulty, (Again) it is not about how hard it will be to succeed...it is about the inherent difference in operating a Grav vehicle vs piloting a starship.

Pushing the power button and gently guiding an air-raft from point A to point B is very distant from understanding the intermix of systems and electronics before playing "lets fly" on an "organ of buttons and dials" which make a computer look easy.
The POINT IS that the two concepts have NO RELATOINSHIP....so why do they grow form the same Feat?
It is like offering the "Knife" feat and then allowing someone to take the skill "Knife Throwing" or Surgery because they both involve a knife. yes, they both involve a knife but they are completly unrelated otherwize.

 

[stofsk]

Originally posted by Truestar:
And Stofsk, Everyone from that kind of world gets it... Not just characters.

Uh, no. Characters get that feat, there are no rules in T20 I've yet read about NPC commoners (ie the vast majority of people on a world) having access to that feat.

As for difficulty, (Again) it is not about how hard it will be to succeed...it is about the inherent difference in operating a Grav vehicle vs piloting a starship.

Which is where the feats come in.

Pilot The Skill covers the basics, as has already been stated in this thread. The vessel feats are assumed to be specialised training that allows you to take those basic skills and apply them to various complex vehicles.

The POINT IS that the two concepts have NO RELATOINSHIP....so why do they grow form the same Feat?

WHAT same feat? V/Grav is a separate feat to V/Starship or V/Ship's Boats.

It is like offering the "Knife" feat and then allowing someone to take the skill "Knife Throwing" or Surgery because they both involve a knife. yes, they both involve a knife but they are completly unrelated otherwize.

Now you're not making any sense.

But if this is such a big issue for you, house rule it by saying V/Grav confers Pilot/Grav skill. V/Ship's Boat confers Pilot/Ship's Boat and V/Starship confers Pilot/Starship. There. Problem solved.

Just like I wrote earlier in the thread.

 

[princelian]

stofsk, it's clear from the tenor of Traveller (no matter the edition) that NPCs are JUST LIKE THE PCs. They have careers; they have skills; some of them are psionic (even scary_psionic); and many carry guns and wear armor.

Searching the rules for specifics....you can look at Appendix I: Friends and Enemies from The Traveller's Handbook.

Those bandit/guerrillas do have lower stats than an average PC, but they have +5 ranged (assault rifle 1d12/x2) attacks. They've got the basic feats for rogues + mercenaries and their technology level. I'd say they definately are full-fledged characters and therefore a threat, potentially a dire one if a firefight with automatic weapons breaks out.

The high tech guards ALL have V/grav, AP/light+medium+vacc suit, WP/armsman+marksman+combat rifleman and several useful feats. They have 3 levels of professional, which weakens them in combat somewhat, but that choice might get made by a player, too.

Even the functionary (that poor victim) has Driving or Pilot +9 and either V/wheeled or V/grav depending on tech level. Admittedly, he's got no weapon proficiencies, so his attacks are very weak, but even with -3 on his body pistol, he hits a AC16 opponent 10% of the time.

No, I have to disagree with you, stofsk, the rules as written DO actually say the NPCs are just like the PCs. And they're almost as dangerous. I say almost because PCs have mean 12.5 stats while the NPCs have 10.5, but with guns and Lifeblood that isn't as much of a difference as many might like.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Truestar:
Better than life..
What do you mean "Feats are not as common as you
might think. While a character can have multiple
vessels that he can use pilot in, he won't have
other feats." ?
I get the vehicle/Grav feat + Pilot-0 for coming from a High tech or better world. I do not loose anything for it and I have it before Prior History.

And Stofsk, Everyone from that kind of world gets it... Not just characters.

As for difficulty, (Again) it is not about how hard it will be to succeed...it is about the inherent difference in operating a Grav vehicle vs piloting a starship.

Pushing the power button and gently guiding an air-raft from point A to point B is very distant from understanding the intermix of systems and electronics before playing "lets fly" on an "organ of buttons and dials" which make a computer look easy.
The POINT IS that the two concepts have NO RELATOINSHIP....so why do they grow form the same Feat?
It is like offering the "Knife" feat and then allowing someone to take the skill "Knife Throwing" or Surgery because they both involve a knife. yes, they both involve a knife but they are completly unrelated otherwize.

But Blade combat is different from Surgery. (And they have different associated feats and different skills.) Further Blade combat is different from knife throwing and they also have different associated feats.

It has been my experience that characters hit a point of diminshing returns durning generation around 8th or 9th level. So at that point they muster out. (The most I have yet to see is 12th level and that character got extremely lucky.) That means most characters have only 8 feats. (In addition to the basic character class feats, which none of the Vessel Feats are.) Further in most classes there is no more than one vessel feat aside from Vessel(Grav) in the class feats. That means that unless your character is in one of the classes where starship pilots is common, they have to use one of only 4 general feats to fill these up. So they aren't choosing armor, brawling or a weapon that they don't start with. They aren't specializing in certain skills or getting really good with a firearm. It is a question of trade off. And while you might get pilot-0 from a high tech world (only a 50-50 chance of that in the first place.) Unlike any other of the starting skills it does say Cross-Class. So unless it is a class skill for one of their classes it isn't automatically a class skill from that point on and it is a class skill only while advancing in a class where it is a level.

Further unlike Classic Traveller or Mega Traveller, the target numbers required to perform most tasks, mean you have to have significant skill levels to do more than simple mundane tasks. (For pilot you need, for most simple tasks a skill of at least 10 to get you to 50-50.)

Also remember that all vessels follow the same principal. You have to have controls for pitch yaw, lift and thrust. Most craft are going to have similar controls to make it easier for a pilot to switch from one type of craft to another. (It only makes sense commercially for sale of these craft.)