Skills- JOAT and Time

[kilemall]

Came up with a couple takes on skills that I think might be of interest.

In coming to grips with JOAT levels greater then 1 I created this overcomplex education check thing, but was never happy with it.

JOAT needs to be that MacGyver/most interesting man in the world skill, and IMO should get something for multiple levels especially in anti-bloat regimens like CT pre-LBB4, but not overpowering.

Giving JOAT anything higher then a Skill-0 is overpowering.

A possible solution? The skill level indicates the number of times a JOAT attempt can be done on a particular problem/task check/save.

If that is unpalatable, perhaps number of times the throw can be done on the same problem, after which negative DMs of -1 or -2 per fail starts being applied.

Gives the due to a JOAT-3 without going all crazy.

While considering that alternative use of the skill level, I came up with another use- time.

Each task/save requires X time to do for a normal Skill-1 person.

But a higher skill person can usually do it faster, and retry for a recovery/completion on failure.

So a Skill-2 person can roll for success in half the time, Skill-3 in 1/3, Skill-4 in 1/4, etc.

Or maybe another to express it is the number of times one can throw in the time it takes a Skill-1 to do it.

Higher skill people can fail too, but they are more likely to eventually succeed, and quickly too.

This could come in real handy in split second actions too, for example Pilot-2 or Vehicle-3 can roll extra times to avoid a crash.

 

[Fovean]

Interesting ideas.

In MgT an unskilled PC suffers DM-3 to tasks, for instance someone without Medic suffers DM-3 on a first aid attempt.

JOAT reduces this unskilled DM on a 1:1 to basis. Thus JOAT 3 allows a PC to attempt any task with DM-0. But JOAT is rare and capped at 3.

The time idea is pretty cool, especially in down time sort of tasks like vehicle repairs and the like. A Mechanic 2 fixing something in half the time it normally takes adds some spice to things.

Not sure about the extra attempts. Feels like only the best should have that opportunity, perhaps Skill level minus 2 gives the number of extra attempts allowed?

It should cut both ways of course; strong NPCs should get an extra attempt as well.

 

[McPerth]

The JOAT skill has been discussed several times. There I already gave my opinión:

On one thread:

I also like this use of JOT, as given in MT too (where I first read about it).

I don't see the automatic retry allowed by JOT as "automatically pass determination to retry", but as rerolling the failed dice roll. The main difference is that does not add time to the action.

As I see it, JOT, used this way, represents the use of unorthodox means when orthodox ones fail (or are not usable, be it for lack of knowledge, lack of materials or whatever the reason is). As such, I always made them as hazardous, as any such actions, as it represents patching instead of repairing, so to say.

IMHO, this use of the skill has some advantages when compared with reducing/avoiding non skilled penatlies:

• each level of skill counts
• does not make a high skill JOT character a superman (if used to reduce non-skilled penalties, higher enough level is as having each and every skill at 0, while this way you keep the non-skilled penalty when deserved, just giving more possibilities to succeed)
• it's also usable in known skills (e.g. an engineer with JOT skill has advantage over one that has not it)

Off course, there are tasks where this is not usable (e.g. most combat actions, and most instantaneous ones)...

Well, I understand JOT as "McGiver" (improvising capacity), so to say.

Let's imagine an engineer trying to fix a drive. He dismantles it, tries to fix it and fails to repair it (failed dice roll).

A normal retry would mean that after the time it usually would take to repair it, he understands he must start again. So (assuming he passes his determination), he keeps working more with the pieces (or dismantles again the drive) and looks for spares to fix it, taking again the time needed...

OTOH, as I see it, JOT rereoll means that when he finds a specific piece is missing (or broken, or failing), he thinks about something else that can sustitute it (as McGiver would do), not needing to start again. Of course, if this sustitute piece fails, it's more likly to fail in a more spectacular way (hence the hazardous), and, even if it works, it will not be a definitive fixing (as could a regular roll or retry be), but a temporary jury-rigging that works for now.

On another:

IMHO, already stated in other threads, the best use of JOT skill was in MT, whith the reroll capabilities according to your JOT skill. This does not give you a level 0 in all skills at JOT 3 as MgT does, allows you to have better chances also in those skills you already have and doesn't have a level limit in the usefulness of your skill (in MgT, JOT 3 or JOT 6 doesn't make much difference).

Instead of giving a -1 cummulative for each roll, the limits I used (I must state again I mostly played MT as a referee) were that if a mishap was rolled, you stopped rerolling, and all tasks so rerolled were hazardous. With those limits, I tried to reflect that unortodox solutions are always dangerous (yet they may as well save your day).

And, of course, I didn't allow JOT for all tasks, but that was difficult to rule out precisely, being mostly to referee's (so my) consideration on a case by case basis (one fact was true, though, never allowed to combat rolls).

Yet another:

As I see, the main difference we have on JOT skill is about definition.

Understood as you do (or at least as I understand you: small knowledge about many things), the use of the skill in MgT or T4 is (IMHO) the logical one. Understood as I do (ingenuity and improvisation capability for unorthodox practical solutions), the logical one is (IMHO again) that on MT.

About the skill reducing the needed tiem, I also liked MT solution to that, where skill was used as -DM to the time multiplier (so taking about 10% less time per skill level on average).

 

[Timerover51]

Interesting ideas.

In MgT an unskilled PC suffers DM-3 to tasks, for instance someone without Medic suffers DM-3 on a first aid attempt.

JOAT reduces this unskilled DM on a 1:1 to basis. Thus JOAT 3 allows a PC to attempt any task with DM-0. But JOAT is rare and capped at 3.

The time idea is pretty cool, especially in down time sort of tasks like vehicle repairs and the like. A Mechanic 2 fixing something in half the time it normally takes adds some spice to things.

Not sure about the extra attempts. Feels like only the best should have that opportunity, perhaps Skill level minus 2 gives the number of extra attempts allowed?

It should cut both ways of course; strong NPCs should get an extra attempt as well.

That DM of -3 if unskilled in MgT seems to me to be a bit extreme. In the example given of first aid, the first aid kit in use at my church includes a booklet showing how to use the components of the kit. The defibrillator unit located in the church office also included directions in both word and picture illustrations on how to use it.

Against that, when "Squeaky" Froome tried to shoot then President Gerald Ford back in 1976 with a ..45 Colt Automatic, she was sufficiently untrained with the gun to know that she had to draw the slide back to chamber a round.

I would say that a lot would depend on the task and what equipment was used. Someone with no Survival Skill but with an Army Field Manual on Survival should be viewed as different from someone without that aid. In World War 2, an Air Force pilot managed to survive for 84 days north of the Arctic Circle in winter without a whole lot of training simply by using some very good common sense, and also being fortunate in locating some caches left behind by prospector.

Having a higher level of skill shorten the time for something to be accomplished would be reasonable. I can remember a case on our first trip to England when I accidentally locked the kets to the rental car inside. After the Bobby in Whitby spent about 15 minutes unsuccessfully trying to open the door with one of the lock straps, I asked if I could try and had the door open in 15 seconds. Note, I an not a professional car thief, but I do have a record of locking keys inside of cars, hence the expertise. Does the time reduction show up anywhere in the various rules editions?

 

[Fovean]

That DM of -3 if unskilled in MgT seems to me to be a bit extreme. ...

I would say that a lot would depend on the task and what equipment was used.

Absolutely. I was just speaking generally about the rules mechanics. To continue with the Medic example, IMTU I allow a DM based on the medkit's TL (TL - 6). This to me represents the first aid booklet, better tools and medicines, ease of use, etc. But certainly each situation is different and needs to be adjudicated accordingly.

...
Does the time reduction show up anywhere in the various rules editions?

Not to my knowledge although MgT allows for taking longer to gain a +DM or suffering a -DM to complete something more quickly. The time periods are fairly coarse and skill levels don't really affect the total time taken.

Reducing time taken by 10% per skill level seems fair but also seems unlikely to affect the game much except in tense situations (where game mechanics are less important to me, role-playing takes precedence). But that hero Engineer 3 who can get week-long repairs done in ⅓ the normal time, that's a fun idea.

 

[McPerth]

Absolutely. I was just speaking generally about the rules mechanics. To continue with the Medic example, IMTU I allow a DM based on the medkit's TL (TL - 6). This to me represents the first aid booklet, better tools and medicines, ease of use, etc. But certainly each situation is different and needs to be adjudicated accordingly.

Instead of TL-6 DM (that would mean a +9 at TL 15) I'd use the DM as if the TL was a skill asa task level reduction on medical tasks.

So, in MgT, if the TL is 10 (DM +1 if it was a stat), any medical task is reduced 1 difficulty level. At TL 12 (DM +2 for a stat), they are reduced 2 levels...

And, for first aid, I assume any former military character to have some first aid knowledge, that serves as Medical -0 in first aid situations

Does the time reduction show up anywhere in the various rules editions?

In MT. For any (non instantaneous) task the time increment is defined by the referee with the task. This time increment represents 1/10^th of the expected time, and is multiplied by 3d6-DMs used in the task (so skill and stat DM). Task may also be hasty (less time, more difficulty) or cautious (more time, hopely less difficulty)

E.g. when trying a chirurgery to a wounded soldier, the referee thinks it will take one hour on average. So time increment is 6 minutes. The doctor ihas skill level 3, stat DM 2, so the time increment is multiplied by 3d6-5. On a toll of 11 it will take 36 minutes.

 

[Timerover51]

Instead of TL-6 DM (that would mean a +9 at TL 15) I'd use the DM as if the TL was a skill asa task level reduction on medical tasks.

So, in MgT, if the TL is 10 (DM +1 if it was a stat), any medical task is reduced 1 difficulty level. At TL 12 (DM +2 for a stat), they are reduced 2 levels...

And, for first aid, I assume any former military character to have some first aid knowledge, that serves as Medical -0 in first aid situations

The idea for the former military characters has a lot of merit to it, as most military personnel will have some first aid training.

In MT. For any (non instantaneous) task the time increment is defined by the referee with the task. This time increment represents 1/10^th of the expected time, and is multiplied by 3d6-DMs used in the task (so skill and stat DM). Task may also be hasty (less time, more difficulty) or cautious (more time, hopely less difficulty)

E.g. when trying a chirurgery to a wounded soldier, the referee thinks it will take one hour on average. So time increment is 6 minutes. The doctor ihas skill level 3, stat DM 2, so the time increment is multiplied by 3d6-5. On a toll of 11 it will take 36 minutes.

It figures that it would be MegaTraveller, which I never really got into..

 

[McPerth]

It figures that it would be MegaTraveller, which I never really got into..

You figure right

 

[flykiller]

The skill level indicates the number of times a JOAT attempt can be done on a particular problem/task check/save.

in 2d6 this adds up quickly. for example, three attempts at rolling 10+ has a .42 chance of success.

That DM of -3 if unskilled in MgT seems to me to be a bit extreme.

you can parse it by skill. -3 for (say) pilot, navigation, or medical, -2 for mechanics, electronics, or engineering, -1 for vehicle, weapon, or vacc suit.

 

[flykiller]

In coming to grips with JOAT levels greater then 1

(grin) how would you handle joat 0?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

(grin) how would you handle joat 0?

If that were thing, I would change the basic idea of being able do even do a skill roll untrained like you cant do untrained rolls at all unless you have JoT 0. higher levels remove the penalty as normsl.

 

[kilemall]

in 2d6 this adds up quickly. for example, three attempts at rolling 10+ has a .42 chance of success.

Yes, that is deliberate. Given that I'm in the CT less skills is more camp, 2 levels of JOAT going to waste is pretty much 1-2 terms or 4-8 years of the character's life.

They should have a capability with that level of problem-solving, but again not some uber Heinlein/Doc Savage level.

 

[kilemall]

(grin) how would you handle joat 0?

Far as I'm concerned, no such thing.

 

[aramis]

(grin) how would you handle joat 0?

in that reroll based mode, roll thrce, take the median roll.

 

[kilemall]

Mc Perth we' ll have to agree to disagree then. I'd definitely have combat and instant reaction rolls for my JOATies.

Yes, thought Scout McGyver to himself, I never was in the Marines and never handled an FGMP before.

But I did see a viddoc while holding over at Aquila Down, and they charged the fusion bottle by removing the safety here on the power pack <brrrrrrrawrrrrrr>, setting the gravitic compensator for support <whaaaaahummmmmmmmmm>, has to be a targeting setup so the gun knows how much bolt and compensation- ah there flip screen <bop-ding-what-would-you-like-to-destroy-today-trooper>.

Marine humor- simple, gallows.

Now aim at the side of the APC above the lifter board, has to be the thinnest part, and <VWWWOOOOOOOROOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!>.

 

[coliver988]

Mc Perth we' ll have to agree to disagree then. I'd definitely have combat and instant reaction rolls for my JOATies.

Yes, thought Scout McGyver to himself, I never was in the Marines and never handled an FGMP before.

But I did see a viddoc while holding over at Aquila Down, and they charged the fusion bottle by removing the safety here on the power pack <brrrrrrrawrrrrrr>, setting the gravitic compensator for support <whaaaaahummmmmmmmmm>, has to be a targeting setup so the gun knows how much bolt and compensation- ah there flip screen <bop-ding-what-would-you-like-to-destroy-today-trooper>.

Marine humor- simple, gallows.

Now aim at the side of the APC above the lifter board, has to be the thinnest part, and <VWWWOOOOOOOROOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!>.

No I am not trained, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I've never had any problems/issues with JOAT.

 

[McPerth]

Mc Perth we' ll have to agree to disagree then. I'd definitely have combat and instant reaction rolls for my JOATies.

Yes, thought Scout McGyver to himself, I never was in the Marines and never handled an FGMP before.

But I did see a viddoc while holding over at Aquila Down, and they charged the fusion bottle by removing the safety here on the power pack <brrrrrrrawrrrrrr>, setting the gravitic compensator for support <whaaaaahummmmmmmmmm>, has to be a targeting setup so the gun knows how much bolt and compensation- ah there flip screen <bop-ding-what-would-you-like-to-destroy-today-trooper>.

Marine humor- simple, gallows.

Now aim at the side of the APC above the lifter board, has to be the thinnest part, and <VWWWOOOOOOOROOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!>.

Here's again the discussion about JOAT being more knowledge (I¡veen a video about it) or inprovisation/unotrodox solutions capacity (á la McGiver). In your case, it was the first definition, as htre's no improvisation is on it, just some knowledge.

The McGiver case would be moe like:

The power pack cable of this PGMP has broken... But if I slavege the cable of this other thing, that we're not using right now, maybe we can make it fire some more shoots before it fuses (as it's not expected to endure so much power)

I said I don't allow for combat skills because it would mean a carácter with JOAT-2, to give you an example, would then be allowerd 3 rolls to fire a rifle, and I guess this is not the spirit of it. Of course, this is only for the rerolling option...

And, anyway, don't have most players gun cbt 0 in all weapons?

 

[Adam Dray]

That DM of -3 if unskilled in MgT seems to me to be a bit extreme.

In CT LBB1 (copyright 1977, 1981), it's far worse:

"Untrained Weapon Usage: Any character using a weapon in which he or she has no training is subject to a penalty of -5 when attacking and +3 when definding. All player-characters automatically have an expertise of zero (0) in all weapons shown in this book. This zero value is sufficient to avoid the noexpertise penalty, but it is not enough to provide a positive DM."

Other skills list -3, -4, and -5 DM penalties if there is no expertise in a skill (Administration, Forward Observer, and Streetwise, respectively).

 

[kilemall]

Yes they do have 0 for guns, in CT S4 Barbarians, Bureaucrats and Doctors are assumed unskilled.

Hmm, 3 shots in a typical shooting round/phase? That would be a bit rough.

The example shows where even a gun person might not know all the doodads to make an FGMP work- say failing to power it up or n o gravitic compensation with really bad results.