Small Ship Unvierse Economics

[aramis]

While the Terran ability to build wet navy carriers is interesting, it is not what I am trying to get at.

One of you premised a budget of KCr = 0.35Pop. What I was wanting to know is if fleets can be built and maintained on just trade tariffs, so at maybe 0.035Pop or even 0.0035Pop to encourage more trade.

Opinions?

The most impressive J2 BB that can be built by using stock Bk 2 is about GCr4. It costs MCr15 to operate annually, plus replacement costs, base costs, and such. It's about GCr5 for J1, as it carries more fighters and marines, and GCr 6 for no jump. (and under Bk2, you can't get at 5000Td.)

Most worlds will spend more for a local carrier - no marines, but twice the fighters... about GCr2 more, in fact, and produce a system ship as a carrier. Why? because a 300 fighter system carrier at the GG is capable of a lot more fight than a jump capable one. Or even a 225 fighter J1, 1G tender.

Note that Bk2 sets a hard size limit by maximum drive size being TL limited.

Most Pop A worlds should have 400-5000 ship fleets given a 10% x 50% x 70% scheme. Many won't meet the standard. Patrol cutters are 1/20 the cost to buy, and with dual crewing, about MCr1.2 per year to operate. It's also got twice the maneuver, and 50% more jump range. So, yeah, a worl with a billion people can get by with far smaller tarriffs if they just want a token force.

 

[Condottiere]

One thing about smaller ships, is that repairs should be simpler and replacement parts easier to procure and install.

I had that piece of epiphaqny when I was wondering where you'd store a five thousand ton jump drive, so that you could repair a battle tender.

 

[Carlobrand]

While the Terran ability to build wet navy carriers is interesting, it is not what I am trying to get at.

One of you premised a budget of KCr = 0.35Pop. What I was wanting to know is if fleets can be built and maintained on just trade tariffs, so at maybe 0.035Pop or even 0.0035Pop to encourage more trade.

Opinions?

Well, lessee:

KCr=0.35Pop, or in layman's terms, each person pays out 350 credits per year for Imperial Navy purposes. This was postulated off an annual income of Cr10,000 to Cr11,000 a year. Without getting into a 10-page discussion of modern tax economics, this is certainly reasonable. Question is, can it be much less?

Answer: depends. If there's no one threatening you, then you don't need more than what amounts to a border patrol. If there's someone threatening you, then it's in your clear interest to try to keep up with the enemy "Joneses" or else he gets to take what you have. At that point, the question is: "How much is Mr. Jones spending?" It's important to get that answer right, or he'll overwhelm you before you can correct your mistake - it takes 3 years to build a 5000 dT ship under Book-2.

The easiest way to craft your small-ship universe is to tap into the realities of the population generation system. Forget artful explanations about bottlenecks in sectors that have hundreds of entire star systems and hundreds of billions of people, and recognize one simple fact: 90% of the population lives on 10% of the worlds. Reduce the pop code of the A worlde to 9 and the 9 worlds to 8, and suddenly 370-some billion people becomes 60-some billion people, and naval resources are 1/6 what they were.

To get a real frontier feel, drop the As to 8, the 9s and 8's to 7 and watch your hundreds of billions become mere billions: naval resources are 1% of what they were. The tens of thousands of battleships become hundreds concentrated around a few fortress worlds - or you can figure the Imperium keeps its big ships at Depot and patrols the frontier with 5000 dT destroyers.

 

[McPerth]

Given that we have had many, many threads over the years that shows big ship universe economics; how would one create the economic model for a small ship universe. One where the absolute maximum tonnage is, say 10,000 dtons?

What assumptions are necessary? What tax rate is necessary, or are taxes even necessary?

Can the Imperial system be supported by trade tariffs alone?

When you tell about that, do you mean a maximum ship size (as would occur at low TLs due to computer constrains, or as a small ship universe is usually seen) or to a maximum fleet size?

If you mean the former, I guess the number of ships will grow proportionally to the decreasing size, leaving us more or less with the same total tonnage, and so with more or less the same economics...

If you meant the latter case, then those same (more scarce) ships will be more expensive to build (not necessarily so to maintain). I don't believe just lower percentage budgets will lead to this scenario, though, as those same budgets will be raised if a credible menace is perceived, so, IMHO, only scarcity of one critical element (as Ta¹⁸⁰-m in 2300 AD) will lead to it.

And even a third scenario would be that both maximum ship size and maximum fleet size applies (e.g. the scarce element is needed, and its need grows exponentially with the ship size, making the maximum practical size of the ships the 10 kdt you told about).

In both latter cases (the scarce element approach), the lack of ships would limit the commerce, so making (as Hans pointed) independent traders a rarity, but probably also pirates will be so rare, so military fleets will be smaller too.

Traditionally, military fleets goal has been either to allow your shipping to cross the seas or to deny enemy shipping to do so. In space, I guess planet defense will also be an important mission, as there's not a single place in the planet that cannot be threatened from orbit (unlike naval shipping, as there are places in most nations out of reach for them).

So, if your shipping is smaller, so are your military fleet needs, as there is less shipping to protect/interdict, and, unless there’s a thread from enemy fleets to the planet to be attacked from space, I guess most percentage of the ship’s tonnage will be devoted to freighters to keep the commerce flowing, while also planetary defenses (mostly immobile satellites) will be stronger to allow planetary defense without tying down those so valuable fleet assets.

From the economic POV, this would lead to a higher building cost fleet, but once built (and the practical maximum due to the scarce element is reached) the maintenance costs will not raise in the same proportion, allowing the Naval Budget to be lowered in a good percentage...

 

[pendragonman]

I mean the maximum size of any one hull, combat or cargo vessel. Not sure which mechanic I will use to cap the ship size, but I am leaning on the rarity of an element necessary for the hull as a jump bubble instability only limits ships (jump capable), not boats (not jump capable). Scarce element also leaves a nice reason to keep pushing out exploration teams.

I don't want to limit the tech level so that leaves that out.

I want to use the Traveller Map for ease of astrogation and library data, so that leaves out messing with pop digits. However, if I leave the normal budget I end up with unmanageable amounts of ships. Hence my interest in trade tariff level funding for the fleet.

My idea, at least in this early stage, is that worlds/systems are basically autonomous subject to the Articles of Imperium, which outlines the duties of a world to the Imperium and the duties of the Imperium to a member world. Basically, if you operate in the blackness of space you are subject to Imperium level laws down to within 10D of a settled portion of a system; within 10D it is the planetary/system laws that are in affect.

The Imperium collects trade tariffs to fund itself, which puts the burden of Imperial costs on the more trade heavy worlds, and with those funds the Imperium supports the Navy, Marines, and Starports (necessary for tariff collection and the Imperial presence on a world). The Scouts are funded by their finds as each find is either sold off to Nobles/Megacorps for exploitation or purchased by the Crown as Imperial preserves. Spaceports (think regional airports feeding an international airport which is the starport), armies and system defense are handled by a combination of system governments and nobility household units.

This is all really rough right now though. I am hoping to put it together for either a T5 ATU or a Mongoose support publication. After breaking it with my local group of course.

 

[Carlobrand]

Neither the Vargr nor the Sword Worlders will be constrained by whatever membership treaties or tariff arrangements apply to Imperial worlds. The Vargr in particular will be quite happy to spend money on ships and then swing through demanding tribute from anyone who can't mount a credible defense. That's going to set a lower limit on how few ships you can build: you can spend the money on ships to discourage the Vargr; or you can give the money to the Vargr when they show up with more ships than you have.

Whatever solution you arrive at, it needs to apply as well to the Imperium's unfriendly neighbors, or you create a power vacuum that they will only too happily fill. I don't think a Vargr leader is going to limit himelf to some arbitrary fraction when he has the resources to build more and can pay for that building by extorting tribute from the neighbors.

 

[pendragonman]

There is that scarce element issue. Who says that an even an equal percentage of that element is available to the Vargr?

Then there is the possibility of a TL difference weighted in Imperial direction.

 

[Tobias]

There is that scarce element issue. Who says that an even an equal percentage of that element is available to the Vargr?

Or the Zhodani, or the Solomani, or the Aslan, or the K'Kree? To name only the major interstellar players potentially hostile to the Imperium.
In any case, making the rare element even more rare in such a fashion will just mean starships are even more out of financial reach for PCs. Because something that is not only scarce, but also represents a vital strategic advantage is not going to end up in the hands of struggling Free Trader captains.

Sorry, I don't see how you can redesign the TU to a point where somehow only the 3I has sufficient access to whatever form of unobtainium (Lanthanum being a canonical component of Jump Drives) you need for starships without it getting completely farcial. If you want a) a small ship paradigm and b) don't want every last system to be crawling with warships, reduce your TU's population numbers and possibly its average tech level. That requires its own contrivances, but they are fewer and less noticeable - not to mention already being present in canon - than the other options. If you don't want to change the pop digits, reinterpret them.

 

[Vargas]

Here are two factors that could contribute to a small ship setting:

Resources are primarily obtained in-system whether by mining asteroid belts or moon systems or what have you, food being grown in contained environments and chemicals being "harvested" from exotic worlds. A reduced need to import resources will contribute to a reduced need for shipping tonnage.

A more uniform tech level distribution across systems. If there's pretty much a TL 12 baseline, give or take a level or two, for example, there's a reduced need to be shipping finished goods back and forth.

I'm not necessarily saying these are good factors when it comes to Traveller, I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[atpollard]

Since it has been fairly convincingly argued that applying 'unobtanium' to the jump drive to limit warships will strangle out the Tramp Traders, I suggest an alternative flavor of 'unobtanium':

The goal is to create a universe with lots of Tramp Starships but fewer Warships. So let's link the 'unobtanium' to the 'military' aspect of the ship design rather than the 'Jump' aspect ...
Hulls are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Lasers and missiles are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Particle accelerators and Meson Guns and Armor and Screens require the scarce 'unobtanium'.

So if you want to explore the possibilities of a large fleet of unarmored warships with laser turrets and missile bays against a small fleet of real warships ... have at it.

 

[JFGarber]

Hulls are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Lasers and missiles are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Particle accelerators and Meson Guns and Armor and Screens require the scarce 'unobtanium'.

This is precisely the method used IMTU. I wanted the arrival of a light cruiser in-system to be an Event.

 

[McPerth]

In any case, an universe with many small traders (so much as for the free traders to be common) but scarce miitary ships would be a haven for pirates (many preys, few risks), so probably leading to increased Naval presence, and so the cycle begins anew...

I don't beleve that a simple budget constraining matter will achieve the goal, as not everybody will stick on it (even if only pirates are the ones who don't), while an unobtanium scenario will inevitavily (IMHO) lead to scarce ships, so to less commerce and few free traders (so players will probably not have a ship, once again 2300AD like scenario).

Just limiting the maximum size of the ships, OTOH, if it is due to larger ships being unable to jump, will just lead to more (albeit smaller) military ships and will give an advantage to planetary defenses (incluiding monitors and SDBs), as they are not constrained by the maximum size to be able to jump.

If the maximum size is for structural reasons (e.g. over that size hull integrity may not be maintained at more than very small accelerations), the problem with defenses will be solved, but it will still lead to many small ships, while more or less the same Budget devoted to Navy, as long as a credible thread is perceived.

I don't say any of those is good or bad, just different...

 

[aramis]

Since it has been fairly convincingly argued that applying 'unobtanium' to the jump drive to limit warships will strangle out the Tramp Traders, I suggest an alternative flavor of 'unobtanium':

The goal is to create a universe with lots of Tramp Starships but fewer Warships. So let's link the 'unobtanium' to the 'military' aspect of the ship design rather than the 'Jump' aspect ...
Hulls are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Lasers and missiles are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Particle accelerators and Meson Guns and Armor and Screens require the scarce 'unobtanium'.

So if you want to explore the possibilities of a large fleet of unarmored warships with laser turrets and missile bays against a small fleet of real warships ... have at it.

Particle accelerators can be made at TL6 in the real world.

 

[whulorigan]

Hulls are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Lasers and missiles are cheap and simple and plentiful.
Particle accelerators and Meson Guns and Armor and Screens require the scarce 'unobtanium'.

So if you want to explore the possibilities of a large fleet of unarmored warships with laser turrets and missile bays against a small fleet of real warships ... have at it.

Particle accelerators can be made at TL6 in the real world.

Also remember that in CT:JTAS #4, in the Gazelle Class CE article, a brief CT:Book2 rules description was given for using Particle Accelerators with Book 2 space combat:

Treat Particle Accelerator as:

Heavy Laser in Barbette Mount
Does 2 hits
Hit Bonus: +2
Skew damage in favor of crew and/or computer hits

Just make them restricted/para-military (i.e. you need to demonstrate a sufficient need to get a permit to mount one).

 

[rancke]

Here's a variant of an idea I had long ago, inspired in part by John Brunner's Interstellar Empire. All starships are the result of Forerunner artifacts. Ship are created by planting a "seed" in an asteroid. When the seed is activated, it generates a ship from 100T to 5000T in size from a limited list of possibilities. Some ships are armed, some ships are not. Contemporary weaponry is of no use against ships, so it's no use putting arms on unarmed ships.

Races become starfaring by developing spacecraft and finding a supply of ships drifiting in asteroid belts or planetary rings. Other races become minor races by someone else reaching their system and grabbing all the ships there for themselves. Prospecting for starships is a well-known activity.

I had a number of variations over that idea (e.g. one day millions of ships land on Earth free for the taking by anyone who stumbles across them, ships slowly grow bigger as they grow older, ships "imprint" on their pilots and are useless if stolen from them, ships can reconfigure themselves to a limited degree), but that's the basic idea.

To get the small ship universe you want, you calibrate the number of civilian ships and the number of warships to suit your vision.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Here's a variant of an idea I had long ago, inspired in part by John Brunner's Interstellar Empire. All starships are the result of Forerunner artifacts. Ship are created by planting a "seed" in an asteroid. When the seed is activated, it generates a ship from 100T to 5000T in size from a limited list of possibilities. Some ships are armed, some ships are not. Contemporary weaponry is of no use against ships, so it's no use putting arms on unarmed ships.

Races become starfaring by developing spacecraft and finding a supply of ships drifiting in asteroid belts or planetary rings. Other races become minor races by someone else reaching their system and grabbing all the ships there for themselves. Prospecting for starships is a well-known activity.

I had a number of variations over that idea (e.g. one day millions of ships land on Earth free for the taking by anyone who stumbles across them, ships slowly grow bigger as they grow older, ships "imprint" on their pilots and are useless if stolen from them, ships can reconfigure themselves to a limited degree), but that's the basic idea.

To get the small ship universe you want, you calibrate the number of civilian ships and the number of warships to suit your vision.


Hans

Interesting setting...

That will, off course, open quite new questions:

Whould those ships be able to be repaired in case of damages or one must wait for them to "heal" themselves (as those ships seem to be live beings)?

Whould them be seen as intelligent? as sentient (and so they might even hae citizenry rights)?

 

[atpollard]

Particle accelerators can be made at TL6 in the real world.

Classic Traveller makes a big fuss over lasers/missiles (that fit 3 to a turret) and Particle Accelerators (that squeeze 1 to a Barbette at TL 14 and 1 to a turret at TL 15) ... I was just respecting the LBB2/LBB5 split in Classic Traveller.

 

[rancke]

Whould those ships be able to be repaired in case of damages or one must wait for them to "heal" themselves (as those ships seem to be live beings)?

Oh, I think letting them heal themselves would be more in keeping with the incomprehensible Forerunner technology theme. Helped along by supplying the ship with suitable raw materials.

Would them be seen as intelligent? as sentient (and so they might even have citizenry rights)?

That would be up to you. I think they are just tools, but the other way is interesting too.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Classic Traveller makes a big fuss over lasers/missiles (that fit 3 to a turret) and Particle Accelerators (that squeeze 1 to a Barbette at TL 14 and 1 to a turret at TL 15) ... I was just respecting the LBB2/LBB5 split in Classic Traveller.

They should be largish. But not terribly expensive. And they really don't need any unobtanium. If you have enough power to throw at them,, you can use off the shelf copper wire, off the shelf rebar, and off the shelf ceramic, to make a reasonable particle accelerator. The trick is controlling it, but they have been doing that since the 1940's.

Meson guns requiring unobtanium is reasonable, especially since the Meson Gun is plotnium anyway.