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Snub Pistols and Shotguns.

If you are using high tech rocket propelled rounds where you don't want to hit anything fragile, or likely to vent all your breathing air, why not add a bit of cost and put a heat seeker head on that round. Hit every time, no having to practice breathing vacuum.

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In the end, Murphy will rule
 
Originally posted by Vargr Breath:
There was a 40mm buckshot round the M-576 with 27 00 buckshot(about 36cal. each) and a experimental flechett round with 45 flechettes that was issued in Vietnam.
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Aahh, BEEHIVE ammo. Never seen the 40mm grenade version of it, but supply once told me that they were in the official inventory. I have seen and heard it from the 105mm M68A5 main gun from the base model M1 tank (before my company rolled over to the M1A1). The Beehive moniker is well earned... and they are noisy as hell.

Too bad the 120mm doesn't support the round. It's a smoothbore (no rifle grooves)

The round has a dial at the nose which has to be set for the correct range. On the 105mm HV gun, there is a standard rifle twist... the round counts revolutions before it detonates.

The chief problem with this was that if it tipped over and ROLLED at all we were forced to set it aside for EOD to pick it up later. No real danger at the time... it just could no longer be trusted to go off at the right time.

It was a monumental pain in the butt. Lucky for me they started phasing the round out shortly after I enlisted. My company only used them once... and that was for demonstration purposes only.

I always wondered just how often these things got rolled during shipment... oh well, thats the army for you.

I'd imagine that the M203 version uses a differing method. Could make for nasty boarding operations.
 
Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StrikerFan:
Mixing rounds in the magazine should not cause problems, since all the rounds are designed for that weapon. As to the caseless/cased issue, a revolver would need SOME kind of case to seal the base of the round, otherwise firing it will mostly result in scorching the pistol and the firer's hand. It could be a stub case, not a full length case, but the advantage of doing that would be limited (slightly lighter, but more vulnerable to damage).

StrikerFan
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You could do someting like the Nagant pistol, which pushed the cylinder forward as the trigger was pulled to form a tighter gas seal with the barrel. With turn of the century machining technology, the Nagant was overly complex and resulted in a brutal trigger pull, but a future version might be better.</font>
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A reverse Nagant? Possible, perhaps. Thinking about it a little more, the main problem with a caseless revolver is that if the caseless round is loose enough to slide into the cylinder, it won't seal, so the bullet won't move much when it's fired. In a conventional revolver, the case handles sealing duties. A reverse Nagant design could seal, or mostly seal, the breach end, so the problem could be limited to the bore end. But I'm not sure how you would seal both ends without at least a stub case.

StrikerFan
 
Originally posted by Garf:
WOW...

Mixing Rounds.

In the revolver it definitely doesn't matter.
In the automatic. hmmm... Thereotically it Might cause the slide to hang depending on the build of the gun.

IMTU snub pistols (both types) and accelerator rifles (described as longarm versions of the snubs) are actually minature rocket launchers.

Again this is not science fiction. The Gyrojet pistol fired 13mm rockets as far back as the 1970's...it wasn't a commercial success though.

the fluff for Snubs describes their rounds as being about 13mm (I'm pretty sure) this is slighty larger than 1/2 an inch (.50 cal = 12.7 mm) it's a big bullet. Self propelled it would have minimum recoil (as described in the game) and ... yeah since the rockets are just stacked atop each other in the automatic which in turn uses far fewer moving parts than a traditional autopistol. Mixing rounds should work.

so yeah why not silent shot gun rounds.
As for snubs. I always thought they were pretty quiet anyway. their flight would make less noise than a kids model rocket.

GARF.

PS I just noted someone mentioning saboted rounds. Again reality matches science fiction there's been a military only round in existence for at least ten years that is a .50 cal steel penetrator wrapped in a fibreglass or plastic sabot to make it fit in a 12 guage shell. I saw it used in movie to shoot through cars but I would suggest you actually look up it's real world performance if it interests you.
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The Snub rounds are, according to the text, actually 10mm, and only the accelerator rifle (and the ARL from JTAS) is a rocket/gyrojet weapon. Snubs would be fairly quiet, certainly no sonic boom as the bullet travels far too slowly for it and the small powder charge would make it easily silenced if that's what you wanted. Of course, the explosion of the HE/HEAP warhead won't be silent, but at least the firing won't give your position away. IMTU, there was a 10mm snub SMG in common use as a shipboard security weapon for those who thought that pistols weren't up to the task.

Saboted rounds are pretty standard fare in modern muzzleloaders, and a civilian version was available at least for a while in the US in the classic .30-06, launching .223 varmint bullets at high velocity. I don't know if the Winchester `Accelerator' is still available, though.

StrikerFan
 
Ack. Ten milimeter. NOT 13. I ___REALLY___ gotta finish my house guest preperations so I can get my damn books out of storage.

This is the second time I've been caught with my references down.

For me. IMTU I'll continue to make the Snubbies, of all types, rocket guns. I think they're cool that way. If I didn't state that it was an IMTU ruling earlier based on the Accelerator Rifle being a rocket Then I should have.

Also, since they AREN'T designed to vent backblast, stubbies/acellerators will be LOW recoil not NO recoil weopans.

Snub SMG I just ran accross a passing reference to that in one of MJD's posted stories. Synchronicity! - have to think on that. Definitly -military only- hardware but for some players cool army stuff they can't have...normally... is a GREAT MacGuffin.

Garf.
 
Forgive me if you've heard this (or it's really BS) but. . .

I was talking to a guy once who was flying in a Huey over Vietnam when one of the guys accidently triggered his M-79 sending the round into the floor (deck?). The grenade hadn't spun enough to detonate but it wasn't something to go casually pull out yourself. He said they had to finish their mission before EOD was sent in to retrieve the round.
 
Originally posted by StrikerFan:
A reverse Nagant? Possible, perhaps. Thinking about it a little more, the main problem with a caseless revolver is that if the caseless round is loose enough to slide into the cylinder, it won't seal, so the bullet won't move much when it's fired. In a conventional revolver, the case handles sealing duties. A reverse Nagant design could seal, or mostly seal, the breach end, so the problem could be limited to the bore end. But I'm not sure how you would seal both ends without at least a stub case.

StrikerFan
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I was thinking a normal Nagant action, with a closed breech. Try this for size:

The chambers are not bored all the way through the cylinder. Instead they are loaded from the front, like a cap-and-ball revolver. The gun breaks for reloading, but it opens from in front of the cylinder, not behind it. When the gun is closed, rounds are kept from moving forward by a guard or shield on the frame just in front of the cylinder. In lieu of the nipple for a percussion cap, the breech end of the chamber has an electric contact to fire the primer. (Electrical ignition has been used in at least one caseless gun, the Voere Electronci Caseless from the early 1990s.)

When the trigger is pulled, the cylinder cams forward slightly to seal to the barrel. As the cylinder seats to the barrel, electricity flows to the electrode in the chamber, firing the round. Selaed at both ends; not too painfull mechanically, particualrly as the trigger does not have to physically cock a hammer or striekr as well as positioning the cylinder.
 
Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
I was thinking a normal Nagant action, with a closed breech... <snip details>
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That sounds quite workable to me (though I have no practical and very limited theoretical knowledge to bear) and very close to what I had imagined (but couldn't begin to describe).

Thanks. Now to wait and see what the more knowledgeable have to say on it
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Originally posted by Vargas:
Forgive me if you've heard this (or it's really BS) but. . .

I was talking to a guy once who was flying in a Huey over Vietnam when one of the guys accidently triggered his M-79 sending the round into the floor (deck?). The grenade hadn't spun enough to detonate but it wasn't something to go casually pull out yourself. He said they had to finish their mission before EOD was sent in to retrieve the round.
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I believe him. There was a media report during 'nam of a VC POW with an unexploded blooper grenade in his chest. IIRC the surgeon used tongs to work through a sandbag wall and got the grenade out for EOD.
 
Originally posted by StrikerFan:
A reverse Nagant? Possible, perhaps. Thinking about it a little more, the main problem with a caseless revolver is that if the caseless round is loose enough to slide into the cylinder, it won't seal, so the bullet won't move much when it's fired. In a conventional revolver, the case handles sealing duties. A reverse Nagant design could seal, or mostly seal, the breach end, so the problem could be limited to the bore end. But I'm not sure how you would seal both ends without at least a stub case.

StrikerFan[/QB]
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Say what? The bullet in a cartridge revolver has to move forward unsupported by the cartridge case before it seals against the forcing cone of the barrel. This can be quite a distance with short cartridges like the 44 special in the 44 magnum.
The blowpast occurs early in the burn when pressures are low. And were that not true, let me remind that all revolvers were caseless up to 1857 and most were still caseless until the S&W patent ran out.
 
I still like the idea of 10mm Rocket shells.

however uncle bob is right. you want to see good 'caseless' technology just check out the blackpowder era. In some ways the Unitary Metallic Cartridge is a retrograde step.
 
Originally posted by Tom Schoene:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StrikerFan:
A reverse Nagant? Possible, perhaps. Thinking about it a little more, the main problem with a caseless revolver is that if the caseless round is loose enough to slide into the cylinder, it won't seal, so the bullet won't move much when it's fired. In a conventional revolver, the case handles sealing duties. A reverse Nagant design could seal, or mostly seal, the breach end, so the problem could be limited to the bore end. But I'm not sure how you would seal both ends without at least a stub case.

StrikerFan
Click to expand...
I was thinking a normal Nagant action, with a closed breech. Try this for size:

The chambers are not bored all the way through the cylinder. Instead they are loaded from the front, like a cap-and-ball revolver. The gun breaks for reloading, but it opens from in front of the cylinder, not behind it. When the gun is closed, rounds are kept from moving forward by a guard or shield on the frame just in front of the cylinder. In lieu of the nipple for a percussion cap, the breech end of the chamber has an electric contact to fire the primer. (Electrical ignition has been used in at least one caseless gun, the Voere Electronci Caseless from the early 1990s.)

When the trigger is pulled, the cylinder cams forward slightly to seal to the barrel. As the cylinder seats to the barrel, electricity flows to the electrode in the chamber, firing the round. Selaed at both ends; not too painfull mechanically, particualrly as the trigger does not have to physically cock a hammer or striekr as well as positioning the cylinder.</font>[/QUOTE]<ponder, ponder> Yep, that sounds like it would work.

StrikerFan
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StrikerFan:
A reverse Nagant? Possible, perhaps. Thinking about it a little more, the main problem with a caseless revolver is that if the caseless round is loose enough to slide into the cylinder, it won't seal, so the bullet won't move much when it's fired. In a conventional revolver, the case handles sealing duties. A reverse Nagant design could seal, or mostly seal, the breach end, so the problem could be limited to the bore end. But I'm not sure how you would seal both ends without at least a stub case.

StrikerFan
Click to expand...
Say what? The bullet in a cartridge revolver has to move forward unsupported by the cartridge case before it seals against the forcing cone of the barrel. This can be quite a distance with short cartridges like the 44 special in the 44 magnum.
The blowpast occurs early in the burn when pressures are low. And were that not true, let me remind that all revolvers were caseless up to 1857 and most were still caseless until the S&W patent ran out.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]In the case of the blackpowder, cap-and-ball revolvers, they were mostly sealed at the breech end by the percussion cap and the hammer, so the expanding gas pushed the ball out of the cylinder and into the barrel. Not a good seal, lots of blow-by, lots of inefficiency, but it can work.

There IS a seal in a cased revolver for the time where the bullet has not yet cleared the case, before the bullet reaches the forcing cone (there won't be one at that point unless the bullet seals against the cylinder walls or it's a Nagant-type design that seals the cylinder to the barrel), formed by the case and the bullet as the pressure builds and the bullet starts to move. Once the bullet leaves the case, of course, blow-by begins, unless the bullet's base is soft enough to seal against the cylinder walls. And even then, the seal will only last until the bullet base leaves the cylinder.

StrikerFan
 
Originally posted by Garf:
Also, since they AREN'T designed to vent backblast, stubbies/acellerators will be LOW recoil not NO recoil weopans.

Snub SMG I just ran accross a passing reference to that in one of MJD's posted stories. Synchronicity! - have to think on that. Definitly -military only- hardware but for some players cool army stuff they can't have...normally... is a GREAT MacGuffin.

Garf.
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Snubs were LOW, as I recall, in MT, but accelerators were NO recoil as they were designed to vent the rocket's gasses (they were relatively rapidly replaced by lasers, IMTU, but the 10mm ARL hung around for a while). Snub SMGs were a pretty common ships locker weapon in the more dangerous areas of the Marches IMTU, Efate being a favored spot to visit every so often. Besides, if it stays in the ship's locker, no one outside the ship needs to know it's there.....

StrikerFan
 
Originally posted by StrikerFan:In the case of the blackpowder, cap-and-ball revolvers, they were mostly sealed at the breech end by the percussion cap and the hammer, so the expanding gas pushed the ball out of the cylinder and into the barrel. Not a good seal, lots of blow-by, lots of inefficiency, but it can work.

There IS a seal in a cased revolver for the time where the bullet has not yet cleared the case, before the bullet reaches the forcing cone (there won't be one at that point unless the bullet seals against the cylinder walls or it's a Nagant-type design that seals the cylinder to the barrel), formed by the case and the bullet as the pressure builds and the bullet starts to move. Once the bullet leaves the case, of course, blow-by begins, unless the bullet's base is soft enough to seal against the cylinder walls. And even then, the seal will only last until the bullet base leaves the cylinder.

StrikerFan
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I am not quite sure what all the fuss is then. Sealing the rear of the breach is a mechanical problem and could be solved by fairly tight tolerances, or a breech plug that wedges in when the trigger is pulled. The blow-by problem at the front for a caseless round is no different than has been solved by revolvers for the last 165 years.

A Nagant style gas seal would be nice, but I don't see that it is necessary.

Oh, and I didn't like the rocket snub at first, but it's growing on me. A snub being low velocity and short range you won't see Gyrojet-style problems.
 
According to Book 4, Snub pistols fire a very low velocity 10mm round. Available rounds are tranq, gas, HE & HEAP. We're talking slow rounds here, memory says 600-900 mps. A thick leather jacket (jack armor) would probably stop a slug round.

HE & HEAP were needed to make it dangerous.
Exploding bullets tend to draw the eye of local LEOs too...

One of the things that killed the Gyrojet rifle (and pistol) was the Gun Control Act of 1968. It federally regulated anything over 12.7mm (.50 caliber). The Gyrojet used a 13mm round. I saw a Gyrojet rifle in the Firearms Wing of the William Cody Museum in Cody, WY. It looked cool.

Google didn't come up with a picture of the rifle, but I spit out one for the Gyrojet Pistol.
<http://home.arcor.de/abpw/09-older_pistols/pages/Gyrojet_by_Frodo.htm>
 
GCA '68 didn't help the Gyrojet, but they didn't sell many before and no-one has proposed a 12mm version.

A bigger problem was the distance it took to achieve a usefull velocity. A pistol is nearly aways used within 7m, usually within 3m. IIRC within 3m (10 feet) the gyrojet was moving at less than 200 m/s and can best be compared to the inadequate 41 rimfire of the 19th century. At 10 meters a normal service pistol can be expected to shoot 10-15 cm groups. The gyrojet would be lucky to shoot five rounds into a meter.

So in-close it would bounce off a heavy coat, and by the time it had real speed it was to innacurrate to be useful.
 
Originally posted by eclipse:
According to Book 4, Snub pistols fire a very low velocity 10mm round. Available rounds are tranq, gas, HE & HEAP. We're talking slow rounds here, memory says 600-900 mps.
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Hm...600-900 mps is not exactly slow, in fact it's extremely fast for a pistol round. Maybe 600-900 fps (slow pistol range), or 60-90 mps (incredibly slow).
 
IIRC Snub pistol rounds travelled at 100-150mps.

This would make them more akin to archery, for range, than firearms. < even a .45 ACP is ~900fps, just about eveything else is faster than that in normal combat loads IIRC >

T. :cool:
 
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