Snub Pistols and Shotguns.

[eclipse]

Originally posted by Bishop:
IIRC Snub pistol rounds travelled at 100-150mps.

This would make them more akin to archery, for range, than firearms. < even a .45 ACP is ~900fps, just about eveything else is faster than that in normal combat loads IIRC >

T.

That's what I get for posting without checking my references first...

Archery huh? I can see high dex characters trying to dodge snub rounds at range now...

 

[justacaveman]

I believe TL8+ Gyrojet weapons would be much more reliable and useful than the earlier designs. CAD/CAM techniques would fix the inaccuracy problems, and improved propellants would take care of the intial low velocity problem. With currently available propellants, the rockets could reach maximum velocity within a foot or two of the weapons muzzle. The only reason there isn't any further development currently is that there's no commercial incentive for such a weapon. Not a lot of spacefarers out there right now. There was a company out there that made a single-shot recoiless rifle. It was called the "Lujatic Space Rifle" (not sure of the spelling)I believe. I've no idea what the status of the company is currently.

 

[nobby-w]

IMTU, there was a 10mm snub SMG in common use as a shipboard security weapon for those who thought that pistols weren't up to the task.

...

I did something like that until I discovered that a submachinegun firing pen 6 exploding rounds with a +4 hit DM was by far the most lethal weapon in the whole game - doing more damage on average than a gauss rifle or autoshotgun. I think the record was 36D in a single attack.

 

[samuelvss]

I did something like that until I discovered that a submachinegun firing pen 6 exploding rounds with a +4 hit DM was by far the most lethal weapon in the whole game - doing more damage on average than a gauss rifle or autoshotgun. I think the record was 36D in a single attack.

That's some serious thread necromancy...

 

[kilemall]

I lubs me the Snub Pistol!

Especially in the auto pistol format.

Hmmm, may visit making Medium range really bad, make it a very short range weapon only as a balance to it's big bad warloads.

As for snub shotgun, probably apply my sawed off rules and make it an autodrum selectable round deal.

 

[nobby-w]

I lubs me the Snub Pistol!

Especially in the auto pistol format.

Hmmm, may visit making Medium range really bad, make it a very short range weapon only as a balance to it's big bad warloads.

..

In the end I nerfed it slightly by making the HEAP round do normal damage instead of exploding round damage. I don't like nerfing things in ways that don't make sense. A weapon that can't hit a target at normal combat ranges isn't going to get used at all, which makes it pointless. Something that exists ought to be able to plausibly do the job in hand.

 

[mike wightman]

What you need is a slightly higher TL snub round that functions selectively as a snub round or an accelerator rifle like mini rocket

At the TLs we are talking about for this the electronics on board the gun should be able to select the optimal performance for the projectile and program it as needed.

 

[kilemall]

In the end I nerfed it slightly by making the HEAP round do normal damage instead of exploding round damage. I don't like nerfing things in ways that don't make sense. A weapon that can't hit a target at normal combat ranges isn't going to get used at all, which makes it pointless. Something that exists ought to be able to plausibly do the job in hand.

<Shrug> CT range is 6 to 50 meters, snub pistol is a shipboard security weapon, it probably should be functional at least part of that range to do it's job, but not the full range.

Comparing Striker ranges, for HEAP we got C for effective, 10 meters for long and 25 for extreme, about what I felt it should be performing. So my conception is well within that canon model.

AP penetration is 6, which is +1 over Cloth, even with the Combat Environment Suit and can still punch in against Combat Armor and Battle Dress at -2/-4. At the BD level, only a chance of light wound at rolling 12, which come to think of it does reduce the potential damage from a full serious 6D to light 3D.

EDIT Addendum- reviewing the rules, a HEAP round gets upgraded automatically, so that's rather important, the snub pistol wielder will only hurt the BD wearer on a 12, but the BD trooper will be going down with a 6D hit.

 

[kilemall]

What you need is a slightly higher TL snub round that functions selectively as a snub round or an accelerator rifle like mini rocket

At the TLs we are talking about for this the electronics on board the gun should be able to select the optimal performance for the projectile and program it as needed.

Hmmm, well looking at the Striker stats they are two very different systems, with the accel rifle being a 6mm round and extreme range of 80 meters and snubs being 10mm. Accel plain AP also gets a bit of penetration boost at long range (26 to 50 meters), in keeping with it's small round/velocity penetration theme.

So I'd leave the pistol alone and base such an 'upgrade' on the shotgun rounds, make it a 10mm package with solid slug AP, HEAP and shotgun round options (give it a proximity fused shotgun flechette effect).

 

[nobby-w]

EDIT Addendum- reviewing the rules, a HEAP round gets upgraded automatically, so that's rather important, the snub pistol wielder will only hurt the BD wearer on a 12, but the BD trooper will be going down with a 6D hit.

That was the point. Someone talked about a snub submachinegun earlier in the thread, and I noted that I had implemented one at one point, but it was too powerful because of the exploding round rule.

 

[sabredog]

IMTU these are what the snub pistols are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardick_tround

They come all the usual snub loadss. They also have an HVAP sabot round in 10mm/6mm for higher penetration at Close range that is safer to use than the usual HEAP or HE rounds are (IMTU you cannot use those at Close range or you can catch shrapnel from them) but do 3D6 instead of 4D6 damage.

Triplex SALVO rounds for the gun have Tranq darts in case gas won't work.

The reason for using the Dardick design is also because the open design of the revolver (with 10 shots IMTU) allows for quickly swapping out a single round for a special purpose without having to reload the entire cylinder or magazine. The swap can be done in the same combat round you fire the gun. This way if you are suddenly confronted with a threat that requires a lethal round you can snap one into the gun and be ready to go quickly.

And the Dardick is a Space Opera-ish looking gun with zoomy cool packaging on the box.

 

[kilemall]

Er.

What happened to our discussion here on BD armor and Striker light/serious/deadly wounds?

 

[atpollard]

Er.

What happened to our discussion here on BD armor and Striker light/serious/deadly wounds?

It was too good to leave buried under Snub Pistols and Shotguns, so

[M;]I moved it to its own topic[/m;]

... HERE

(Sorry, I got busy and forgot to leave a link.)

 

[kilemall]

I had no idea you guys do that. I will be sure to look around more carefully for my easter eggs in the future!

 

[infojunky]

A weapon that can't hit a target at normal combat ranges isn't going to get used at all, which makes it pointless.

.

So what are normal Combat ranges inside a ship or Station?

I still love me some Nerf gun action the Snub weapon gives us.... Hint, if you work out the rounds shape from it's diameter and weight it is about the size of nerf dart. A whole new dimension it gives for cube warfare.

Note the Assault Rocket Launcher wanders in a Tech level later, which is basically a combination of the Snub Pistol and the Accelerator Rifle, but with better ranges...

 

[atpollard]

So what are normal Combat ranges inside a ship or Station?

3-5 meters (2-3 deck plan squares) for the typical room.
about 20 meters (12-13 deck plan squares) for the longest corridor in the place.
perhaps 50 meters (33-34 deck plan squares) for fighting inside an empty hangar or cargo bay

 

[kilemall]

I've gone to 1 meter squares, gives more nuanced floor plans and is probably more accurate given all the wastage of most plans.

Most ship corridors probably should stay 1.5 though, just for furniture moving if anything else.

 

[infojunky]

I've gone to 1 meter squares, gives more nuanced floor plans and is probably more accurate given all the wastage of most plans.

Most ship corridors probably should stay 1.5 though, just for furniture moving if anything else.

I too for the longest time was in the Gurps camp i.e. 1m/1yd spaces then I got Miniatures.... 15mm Miniatures, so I do everything in 1/100th scale now, with 15mm/1.5m scale grid..... And that so much of the rules I use are 1.5m ground scale native is just makes sense...

 

[Condottiere]

1. The snub pistol or revolver could be constructed a bit chubbier in front, which would be an integral suppressor; it really would be silent at this point.

2. The silenced version may be illegal in some jurisdictions, outside your home.

3. The shotgun is the go to shipboard weapon, and probably the default survival gun; single barrel should be very much cheaper than double barrel, since you'd have to pay considerably more to ensure the barrels align.

4. Tactically, you could train and practice to keep up a continuous rain of fire with a pump action shotgun, as long as you have shells close at hand.

5. Fifty metres default range should cover the corridors of most small starships.

6. Then you can pimp out the shotgun, with laser pointers and a bayonet when the boarding become too touchy feely.

7. The downside would be it's bulky and has a recoil, and then someone shuts down the artificial gravity.

8. You could invest in a gyrostabilizer.

 

[Epee]

Shotguns, due to their large bore, should the jack-of-all-trades of firearms; especially in the Traveller Universe. Large GAS, HE & HEAT rounds, at least compared to a snub round should be SOP for para-military use. Working under the standard assumption that an Accelerator round uses rocket assistance, a shotgun should also be capable of firing a big-bore, but slightly more recoil inducing, Accelerator round.