So - why would you chose CT over MgT?

[dean]

CT says that a Medic-1 can be hired on as the Ship's Doctor. Would you consider a Paramedic capable of filling that role?

Your breakdown does seem right to me though, and I *certainly* meant no disrespect to any medical professionals!

Like others have said, in reality, skill specialization is more granular than the CT skill system, especially if (like me) you don't use the "4x as many skills" advanced character generation rules from Books 4+.

I have a suspicion that some of the disconnect in this thread is between LBB1-3 people and LBB4+ people. LBB4+ CT is not quite the same game; ask any High Guard fan. But maybe not. <shrug>

Actually, on most US Naval ships the ship's doctor IS a "paramedic"... medical corpsman. They get more training than a paramedic, but still not anywhere close to what a newly-graduated nurse should have received.

And, no offense taken or perceived. Just throwin' my 2 cents out there.

 

[dean]

I agree with you on it, but that's for formal training. The problem, as I've already told on other threads is if skill is raised somewhat during play, by experience (not possible in basic CT rules) or training (not a sabatical, but if you have a good instructor), as you can raise your skill, but not you academic graduation.

As an example I already gave on another thread, after more than 20 years as nurse, most of them in an ER, with experience in movile ICU, and as first aid instructor, I guess my skill on a medical emergency will be at least 3, at least to keep the patient alive until further help arrives or we arrive at a hospital (or we reach a low berth, should it be available), but that doesn't make me a doctor, I cannot legaly prescribe drugs (in Spain only doctors can) and I wouldn't be able to perform the simplest surgery. And I don't believe it would be for lack of dexterity, but lack of skill.



First of all, in Spain paramedics don't exist, so I talk about what I've heard from once, several years ago, it was discussed to regulate them.

Paramedics are medical emergency specialists, so they could be ship's medic if his main work is to act on medical emergencies. It would not be enough if more is expected from them. I agree here with pendragonman that this would mean it depends mainly on the size of the ship.

McPerth; As you are aware, but probably many people aren't, people in the medical fields are subject to more "continuing education" requirements than most kinds of workers out there, so in a way the Medic skill is really one of the few that you could almost excuse an increase of skill level on the basis of "time served". I am required to do 18 hour long units of "CEs" minimum annually, PLUS there's a competency unit at the quarterly staff meeting, and then there is a annual thing they do here called the "Competency Fair" where some of our lesser used skills and knowledges get tested and reinforced and anything new that's come out over the past year is double checked. And that's not to mention "OJT" for new devices or procedures taht we get year-round from the med device and pharma reps...

And, given (for example), your extensive training and experience, it's a near-certainty that you assuredly can provide better care to most patients better than any first year coming out of med school. We're a teaching hospital as well, and myself and fellow nurses have saved several lives this past year alone by not implementing orders (and calling the resident) some of the PGY1's have written...

 

[McPerth]

Actually, on most US Naval ships the ship's doctor IS a "paramedic"... medical corpsman. They get more training than a paramedic, but still not anywhere close to what a newly-graduated nurse should have received.

And, no offense taken or perceived. Just throwin' my 2 cents out there.

IDK how accurate it might be, but the medic in the RNAS Hammersley in the TV serial Sea Patrol seems to be a paramedic. Of course, the Hammersley will not stay out of contact for a full week, as Traveller ships are...

 

[Carlobrand]

IDK how accurate it might be, but the medic in the RNAS Hammersley in the TV serial Sea Patrol seems to be a paramedic. Of course, the Hammersley will not stay out of contact for a full week, as Traveller ships are...

A thought:

Most of the medical issues a Traveller ship's sickbay are going to deal with are going to be the kind of stuff a paramedic or school nurse could handle: common bugs, minor injuries and suchlike. Maybe the medic delivers the occasional baby. If its more serious than that, your school nurse calls the ambulance - and your ship's medic pops some passenger out of his low berth and uses it for your medical emergency case. CT Book 2 mentions using the low berth when medical care is not available. (The lucky fellow who got liberated from low berth early might have to bunk with the steward, but he gets to enjoy ship's services for the remainder of his stay, which is a lot more for his money than he was expecting.)

A warship's likely to have higher expectations for very good reasons, but the average civilian ship will make do pretty well with a Medic-1.

 

[McPerth]

A warship's likely to have higher expectations for very good reasons, but the average civilian ship will make do pretty well with a Medic-1.

This will, IMHO, depend on the size of the ship.

A Gazelle's medic is likely to be a paramedic/corpsman (after all, a full doctor will be able to do little more with the facilities the Gazelle has), while a BT is likely to have full hospital facilities, with all the personnel that it implies.

Of course, hospital ships are an exception to those "by size" numbers .

 

[Carlobrand]

This will, IMHO, depend on the size of the ship.

A Gazelle's medic is likely to be a paramedic/corpsman (after all, a full doctor will be able to do little more with the facilities the Gazelle has), while a BT is likely to have full hospital facilities, with all the personnel that it implies.

Of course, hospital ships are an exception to those "by size" numbers .

BT = battle tender?

Yuppers, though I wouldn't necessarily say "full hospital facilities." They'd have a reasonably full range of laboratory, diagnostic and surgical facilities for the kinds of illnesses and injuries a naval crew might encounter, and whatever future-sci treatments might be available for same. There will be things the big ships don't offer, but they'll be for things the crew aren't likely to run into (geriatric care) or things you wouldn't keep a crewman aboard for, conditions that would render the crewman unfit for duty for a long period. I suspect that if a crewman lost an arm or needed a kidney transplant, they'd ship in a replacement crewman, ship the injured guy back to base for fitting of prosthetics, growing the replacement organ, rehab, that kind of thing, and then reassign the guy to another ship once he was fit.

 

[McPerth]

BT = battle tender?

Yes

Yuppers, though I wouldn't necessarily say "full hospital facilities." They'd have a reasonably full range of laboratory, diagnostic and surgical facilities for the kinds of illnesses and injuries a naval crew might encounter, and whatever future-sci treatments might be available for same. There will be things the big ships don't offer, but they'll be for things the crew aren't likely to run into (geriatric care) or things you wouldn't keep a crewman aboard for, conditions that would render the crewman unfit for duty for a long period. I suspect that if a crewman lost an arm or needed a kidney transplant, they'd ship in a replacement crewman, ship the injured guy back to base for fitting of prosthetics, growing the replacement organ, rehab, that kind of thing, and then reassign the guy to another ship once he was fit.

Not every full hospital has all the specialities, and even less trasplant capability. I agree some specialities will not be there (I don't foresee a nursery or an oncological unit in a BT), and it would be quite specialized in trauma, yet some capability for other specialties will sure be there, just to cope with the occasional illness a crewmemeber may have.

 

[oldgamergeek]

I have already been chastised for this statment once, but I am going to stick to my guns.

Spend all that money on a pootly done rehash OR 35 dollars for the whole thing?

Granted there are a few inovations in Mongrav (oh wait, most of them can be found in TNE).....

OK mods, gripe at me again.

These are my thoughts on the matter as the old rules have done fine by me.

 

[Baron]

Yes, I don't subscribe to the 'revision of the day' mode of game publication. If I enjoy the game as written, why would I want to keep buying rewrites again and again? You don't get to issue 'Poker 2.0' and 'Poker 2.5,' why must we rpg players put up with that? Sell me accessories that are compatible with your rules system, but don't make all the stuff I already bought incompatible with what you're selling now. If you've got so many ideas, how about publishing a *new* game, sport?

 

[atpollard]

I have already been chastised for this statement once, but I am going to stick to my guns.

Spend all that money on a poorly done rehash [note 3] OR 35 dollars for the whole thing [note 1]?

Granted there are a few innovations in Mongrav (oh wait, most of them can be found in TNE [note 2]).....

OK mods, gripe at me again.

These are my thoughts on the matter as the old rules have done fine by me.

I am as big a CT fan as anyone, but this argument really doesn’t hold water.

response 1: I agree that the $35 FFE CD of all of Classic Traveller is a hard deal to beat and perhaps the greatest ‘bang for the buck’ going.

response 2: … but TNE is the opposite of Classic Traveller in almost every way. Complex system vs simple system. Vast Imperium vs struggling to survive. It is hard to imagine two Traveller versions harder to port rules, equipment and adventures between than CT and TNE … oil and water.

response 3: I can’t speak for all of Mongoose Traveller since I have only played two games using it, but let me share MY experience with a Mongoose Traveller Free Trader and the Cargo/Trade rules. You arrive in port and the steward does his thing with his Administration skill to line up some cargo. Meanwhile, the Streetwise ship’s Gunner heads off with the Engineer that likes to brawl to beat the back alleys for any pallets that might have fallen off the back of a truck (if you know what I mean). The Captain lines up a passenger in a hurry and it looks like this ship will be leaving with an empty cargo hold since the Steward needs a week and the streetwise produced some leads that will need another day to follow up. – not so fast, the Computer savvy Comm Officer can arrange to have a cargo delivered today! The ship takes off at dawn with an expensive passenger and something in the hold.

While a good Ref could role play this in any system, Mongoose Traveller had lots of CT-simple rules to handle and inspire many different ways of getting a cargo and how to rush the process along if you are in a hurry. Classic Traveller would have required a lot of Ref Fiat and rules on the fly to do the same thing and TNE would have probably been a lot more complex in it’s rule structure.

So in the two games that I played, I found MgT to offer the detail of TNE with the rules simplicity of CT (LBB4+). Now if I were running the game (rather than playing) I would use the ‘pick a skill and roll 8+’ variant of CT LBB1-3 because I like very simple rules, fun plots and good players, but I have personally had nothing but fun with MgT.

 

[oldgamergeek]

Fair enough,
I have played the mongoose version, own a few books and it is a good game but it is not my favorite. I hope I did not offend anyone with my post. perhaps I misunderstood the question as being why would I choose CT over MgT. I think that is a more personal thing than a wrote in stone thing.Please forgive me if I offended you in any way.

 

[atpollard]

Sorry if I splashed you with mud by mistake.
No offense was taken by anything you wrote ... the "poorly done rehash" was a bit inflammatory (and inaccurate IMO) and arguing for porting TNE into CT as better than buying MgT seemed a bit silly to me.

The Traveller Book (CT) is far and away my favorite game book ... bar none. I discarded my LBBs and moved to PDFs. I retired First Edition D&D, Advanced D&D, AD&D 2ed, Car Wars, ...
... but I still have The Traveller Book in print (with the dust jacket and Far Trader image.

 

[Dragoner]

Whether it is a poorly done rehash or not (it's not, imo, but anyways...) it seems to be the version with the most players, being the most current probably has something to do with it as well and the fact that it ports over from CT rather painlessly. So if you are playing Traveller, it is rather important, if you are just playing with Traveller, solo; whatever flavor suits your taste is how you should go. However, one thing I and other GM's have talked about is that combat is less quick and deadly, which does change things from CT to MgT.

 

[Timerover51]

Mongoose Traveller is a derivative of Classic Traveller. I prefer the original over a derivative.

 

[Blue Ghost]

snip

response 2: … but TNE is the opposite of Classic Traveller in almost every way. Complex system vs simple system. Vast Imperium vs struggling to survive. It is hard to imagine two Traveller versions harder to port rules, equipment and adventures between than CT and TNE … oil and water.

snip.

I had some one tell me that T4 was the best iteration of Traveller. I shrugged at it as I never found a local group in the 90s to play with. Said person also sarcastically dismissed the art in the Stewart Cowley books. Same individual then tried to sell me on his faith. Huh.

I put that there to tell you that in spite of all that, I was not prejudiced against T4, but what I did read of the books seemed to connotate a system that took a really different track to technology than what had been established by CT. Suddenly there were lots of aircraft with wings, air foils, and the like. And weapons were a bit different. Just the whole thing had a really odd flavor to it in my book.

That didn't make it bad in my book, but it really didn't seem like Traveller to me. MT on the other hand, for all of its errata and faults with correction of rules, I actually liked. It felt more like Traveller than T4.

T20, just for the sake of completeness, felt like CT on steroids, and mashed together with D&D, which, personally, I didn't care for, but then again by the time T20 rolled around I had quit playing games altogether.

 

[Jacqual]

I run CT over MgT due to one reason, LBB 1, 2, and 3. I use the LBB 1-3 reprints so my origionals are kept safe. I have 4 copies and i can hold them all in 1 hand, size matters. The setting is expansive and yes you need more books for that, but if your just running a game its small, its simple, and it works, my grammer sucks though. Even with home brew rules and all that that gets added I am not bogged down with rulebooks.

 

[shadowcat20]

I still prefer CT with striker for combat rules. The books are great for designing everything from ships (High Guard) to tanks (Striker).

If there are any problems it was the characters being a little flat. But T20 helped a lot in this regard with skills and feats.

I have noticed over the last 30 years that games are getting more detail oriented. Look at 1st ed DnD or CT back then vs DnD 4th ed or MgT now. Not a bad thing but sometimes I think we get more involved in the care and feeding of rules lawers then DM initive and blind settings. It seems to me we have lost some of the unknown and wonder of the old games.

Almost like the difference between Ogre/Gev and Starfleet battles at times.
But then everyone has their own idea of what is fun.

 

[nats]

I dont look into the exact workings of games too closely that just doesnt interest me. I dont really care if something is 'not exactly right' or 'ultra realistic'.

I just prefer the 'feel' of Classic Traveller over the Mongoose versions and any other Traveller version. I am actually leading towards just running all of my future games using just CT Books 1-3 (or probably actually Starter Traveller - because its more complete) plus the Adventures/Ancillary Books etc and leaving alone CT Books 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 completely. CT went downhill in terms of playing the game when Book 4 etc came out.

But I am also waiting for T5 to see what that is like, but I doubt it will do what I want - be a very simple system that encourages playing and not rule checking.

Whenever I look at Mongoose books my eyes glaze over in boredom and I lose focus. I just hate too many rules. I prefer making up things if the rules dont touch on something that is happening.

Basic CT is a fantastic simple game, all the developments since have made it more and more clumsy and complex for no real game playing reason.

 

[robject]

But I am also waiting for T5 to see what that is like, but I doubt it will do what I want - be a very simple system that encourages playing and not rule checking.

Whenever I look at Mongoose books my eyes glaze over in boredom and I lose focus. I just hate too many rules. I prefer making up things if the rules dont touch on something that is happening.

Basic CT is a fantastic simple game, all the developments since have made it more and more clumsy and complex for no real game playing reason.

Don't worry about T5, then, if all you want is Books 1-3. T5's reach is farther than that.

But there's complexity, and then there's complexity. The question is where to push the work.

In one case, you can have a pile of rules which are just there and need to be remembered individually. For example, the special rules in the skills list of The Traveller Book, or the characteristic penalties and bonuses of weapons in Book 1.

In the other case, you have rules to cover what the system is capable of -- for instance, how armor is used in combat, or how to handle acid damage. Books 1-3 let the referee make judgement calls for most situations beyond simple combat, which makes the game fast, but not so good for the consistency of Traveller when adventures are written. At best, it's a balancing act.

 

[BytePro]

Hmmm... CT had quite a few published adventures - how many official adventures are there written for MgT? (Or other versions for that matter?) Not seeing how the LOD/complexity of the rules has a major limiting impact on such, except in theory.

CT has less than 2 dozen skill rulesets - MgT has right around one hundred in the Core. In theory the 'universal task system' should make things easier - but it also leads to lots more things to memorize/reference/contradict in addition to filtering through a template (task system) subject to potential saturation and requiring additional memorization and calculations. Then there is the 'scope creep' of dozens of special case rules that appear as times go by and authors turn over...

I think a lot of this stuff is just fun for contemplation when not actually playing. A lot sounded good on first read on paper, but fell flat in actual game play. In many cases, despite good intentions and theoretical enhancements, the value has been quite questionable when it comes to play enjoyment IME...

YMMV.