So you've lost your ship - what now?

[Frankymole]

In CT it's possible to get a Merchant or Scout Ship as a mustering-out benefit. Supplement 4 gives even more options ranging from a Lab Ship for ex-scientists to a Corsair for mustered-out pirates.

Some of the ships have loans to be repaid before outright ownership is conferred on the player. In these cases, defaulting on the loan leads to possible repossession attempts by the lender.

Ex-Scouts are counted as reservists with their ship (and self) liable to be called up for duty.

But... what happens if your ship is stolen by thieves or pirates, or written off through battle damage, or you have to abandon it?

In the old Traveller-inspired space-trading computer game "Elite", ejecting from your ship during battle allowed you to be provided with a replacement, if you survived, under an insurance scheme.

What happens in your Traveller universe if the players lose their ship - especially if they still owe decades of payments on it?

Would merchants' ships be insurable, especially if they ply profitable but risky pirate-ridden routes? Would the IISS simply write-off the loss of a Type S - perhaps provide a replacement (or not)? Would pirates simply be expected to seize another ship to act as a corsair, or go legit and use their banked booty to raise a loan for a merchant then skip out (can't imagine grizzled freebooters presenting a business plan...)? Would the University demand a scientist pay back the loss of a Lab Ship with a lifetime of unpaid labour?

How does insurance against ship loss actually work?

 

[shadowcat20]

Seems to me for a legit ship that you are making payments on there should be full insurance coverage. You buy a new car today it is required until said car is paid off. Seems to make sense for an expensive starship.

Now there may be riders on there about loosing it in Red or Amber Zones or if you are the aggressive party in a space combat. In that case you may not be covered. Also there may be no coverage outside the Third Imp area.

That would cover Merchants, Lab ships, Safari ships, and Yachts. As for scouts there may be an court of inquery for the loss of said ship. If it was deemed not the captains fault then a replacement ship should be avalible...Once.

If the lab ship had proper paperwork for being in a Red or Amber zone those may even be covered.

Pirate corsairs are on their own.....:devil:



Just some random ideas,

 

[jawillroy]

Make sure that there's no free lunch.

I'd say insurance for a starship should be expensive but not so expensive as to destroy one's profit margin utterly: perhaps 0.0005 the cost of the ship per month, (cr.18,540 a month for a Free Trader) Cheap enough to be a smart investment for the shipowner, expensive enough for it to be a smart investment for the insurer. Once it's calculated, just add the cost to the monthly payment for ease of administration.

It should be restrictive, though. NO coverage when running on unrefined fuel; No coverage while in systems without an A or B port; NO coverage if ship does not have any armament (a single turret with a sandcaster allows that box to be checked...) NO coverage if a crew position is empty.

Exceptions can always be made, but the insurance rate goes up. Wanna fly to C and ports and be insured? Your payments just quadrupled!

 

[jawillroy]

Oh, and if you're uninsured, IMTU:

Ships you're still paying for STILL have to be paid for. (Or you have to go on the lam.)

I like the idea of a court of inquiry regarding a lost Scout: I imagine the IISS expect a few to be lost in the course of Detached Duty assignments, but if the ship were lost wastefully...

Likewise with the Lab ship: the university scientist loses tenure! And he'd be the lucky one - chances are, the lab ship's not owned by a university but a corporation. And they'll REALLY take that ship out of your hide...

Pirates? They'll go back to grifting and purse-snatching until they can bully their way back onto a crew, and steal another ship.

 

[far-trader]

In my opinion, and in MTU...

Commercial Ships (i.e. those under a mortgage scheme) are insured by and for the lender under the mortgage payments. No extra expense for the buyer and the lender is covered in the case of loss. These would be the usual Free-Traders, Far-Traders, Safari ships, Subsidized ships, and such.

That's also how freight coverage works in MTU, the freight owner covers the insurance and the carrier is responsible only for due diligence from port to port. Personal items and speculative cargo are another matter entirely. Most small merchants couldn't afford or be willing to fork out the insurance payments, or take the time to file for coverage.

If a commercial operator loses their ship, they will likely have to start over again from scratch if they didn't have their own insurance (see Private Ships below for rates). Their primary insurance is in caution and avoiding situations that may lead to loss. Actions which would also lead to them being un-insurable by the lender and freight shippers, which would lead to them losing their license and ship as well. And they would be caught eventually after review of their logs.

Private Ships (i.e. those legally operating and owned by the insurer) would have to be privately insured at no small expense. These would be fully paid off Commercial Ships, Yachts*, Seekers* and such. If put on the spot for a figure I'd probably go with something like (insured value x 0.001) as a starting point. This would be subject to the employment and practices of the ship and the starting point would be for routine usage in safe circumstances, and would go up from there.

* in MTU, no mortgage

Contracted Ships (i.e. those under some form of non-financial loan arrangement) would be insured by the lender, much like the commercial ships above. These would be the Lab Ship, the DD Scout, and such.

Illegal Ships (i.e. those operating as Pirates, or Skips for example) are not going to be insured, or insurable. At least not in the usual sense. Some kind of assistance may be available through criminal organizations.

...definitely there will be a review of any ship loss to determine culpability and penalties.

...of course any ship loss in a game is probably a sneaky plan by the ref for adventure to get the ship (or better) back again :devil:

 

[kafka47]

Sure the players would have to assume liability for the lost ship. But, when I saw this headline, my immediate response and one that has been that has been very successful IMTU and HG2G.

"Got your spaceship, nicked, darling? Aw bugger, now, I have to steal another..." and stay one step aside of the authorities until you can employ a good forger to get the papers transferred to the new ship.

"Honest guv, I mean, your worship, it is not a Type S but a Type A with my own special modifications - that ought to account for something, ain't it."

 

[whartung]

Remember, insurance is more to cover the loss for the bank, not you. Odds are if you owe money on your ship and insurance pays, it will likely cover the rest of the load, but not much more.

The key thing here is that while there's lots of rules and such for the price of NEW ships, there doesn't seem to be concise, agreed upon rule set for USED ships, and how to value them.

I would be surprised if you could actually get insurance for a Scout ship, since it's not, per se YOUR ship, but the Service's ship in your care.

If you OWN the ship outright, insurance may well compensate you enough to get a nice down payment on a new ship, but this goes back to "how much are used ships", so you can get a proper valuation.

And do insurance companies cover piracy?? I guess if you have a piracy/hijacking rider on your policy...

Anyone from Lloyd's Maritime Division that can comment?

 

[rancke]

What happens in your Traveller universe if the players lose their ship - especially if they still owe decades of payments on it?

The bank would seize the collateral for their loan.

No, I've never seen any mention of collateral, but on the other hand, I've never heard of a bank that made a loan in the million-credit range without collateral that it can get its hands on when and if.

Which is why, IMTU, there is no such thing as bank loans for freetraders.


Hans

 

[whartung]

The bank would seize the collateral for their loan.

No, I've never seen any mention of collateral, but on the other hand, I've never heard of a bank that made a loan in the million-credit range without collateral that it can get its hands on when and if.

Which is why, IMTU, there is no such thing as bank loans for freetraders.

Isn't the ship the collateral?

 

[rancke]

Isn't the ship the collateral?

How would the bank get its hands on it if it was lost or skipped?


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

How would the bank get its hands on it if it was lost or skipped?


Hans

Duh! Skip Tracers! And thus, a whole new realm of adventures as the party has to avoid bounty hunters. Or, trying to to stave off the bank, the party borrows money from a loan shark (loan Hut, whatever)

"Honest, we were just on our way to see Jaba!"

(See the Cantina scene for Greedo and Han Solo (original version, where Han shoots first) for detail)

 

[aramis]

Isn't the ship the collateral?

Most likely. That's the typical for Alaskan fishing boats.

As for canonical devaluation, only TNE and T4 have a canonical rate... based upon wear value. (Base/WV=Fair Market value)

How would the bank get its hands on it if it was lost or skipped?


Hans

they don't. Or they do like airline loan bureaus do: hire skip tracers.

 

[Frankymole]

There are rules in CT for repo attempts on skipped ships - basically the chance of a repo attempt (ranging from serving legal papers and injunctions, to a full-on armed boarding party) decreases the further you are from the ship's "home planet" (presumably where it was bought); there's a disadvantageous DM (to the skipper) if she calls at the same world twice in two months.

There's always the chance, too, that a ship on which the players become passengers could be skipping.

Good that there's employment for bounty hunters here. There was a tasty ship designed for the professional bounty hunter in an old White Dwarf... holding berths and all; probably most banks wouldn't want skippers dead rather than alive, though... or would they...

 

[aramis]

There are rules in CT for repo attempts on skipped ships - basically the chance of a repo attempt (ranging from serving legal papers and injunctions, to a full-on armed boarding party) decreases the further you are from the ship's "home planet" (presumably where it was bought); there's a disadvantageous DM (to the skipper) if she calls at the same world twice in two months.

There's always the chance, too, that a ship on which the players become passengers could be skipping.

Good that there's employment for bounty hunters here. There was a tasty ship designed for the professional bounty hunter in an old White Dwarf... holding berths and all; probably most banks wouldn't want skippers dead rather than alive, though... or would they...

A dead owner can't counterclaim for "you lost the payment records and then stole my ship!"

 

[HG_B]

Would merchants' ships be insurable, especially if they ply profitable but risky pirate-ridden routes?

If a bank has an outstanding loan on it, you can bet your 1st born's life that it has COMPREHENSIVE insurance on it.

 

[RainOfSteel]

No coverage while in systems without an A or B port; NO coverage if ship does not have any armament (a single turret with a sandcaster allows that box to be checked...) NO coverage if a crew position is empty.

I would have to say no on all of those things.

There are bazillions of worlds with less than A or B ports so the insurance would be void most of the time.

Many merchant ships will not start with armament. Those systems cost a bundle and pirates are better armed, armored, and more maneuverable, anyway.

On the last, it would depend on what was meant by an empty crew position. If it mean no one skilled in that position aboard the ship, then ok. If it meant an empty crew slot, then no.

In my opinion, and in MTU...

Commercial Ships (i.e. those under a mortgage scheme) are insured by and for the lender under the mortgage payments. No extra expense for the buyer and the lender is covered in the case of loss. These would be the usual Free-Traders, Far-Traders, Safari ships, Subsidized ships, and such.

When you own a car in the USA, you are required to carry insurance if you want to drive it. Are you saying that home-owners insurance comes out of the mortgage payment?

I simply cannot imagine any Traveller financial institution taking the slightest cut to its mortgage profits by paying for insurance. I can only imagine that they would require ship-owners to carry insurance and also pay for it on their own.

[...] the freight owner covers the insurance and the carrier is responsible only for due diligence from port to port.

Yes, I agree, the freight owner pays insurance on standard cargo (bulk or breakbulk per GT:Far Trader), not the starship owner.

However, the bank (or whatever institution) holding the mortgage is not the starship owner, at least not until the owner defaults on the mortgage. Or at least I don't think it is.

 

[jawillroy]

That's why I said, "Exceptions can always be made, but the insurance rate goes up. Wanna fly to C and ports and be insured? Your payments just quadrupled!"

Basic, relatively inexpensive insurance should be available for ships that can do milk runs between a few civilized worlds. Any captains putting their ships at risk should have to pay through the nose and ears and whatever other creative orifices to insure their ships. The insurers wouldn't have it any other way, I'm sure. Just because it's inconvenient and expensive doesn't make it any less likely!

 

[HG_B]

That's why I said, "Exceptions can always be made, but the insurance rate goes up. Wanna fly to C and ports and be insured? Your payments just quadrupled!"

Naw, there is no inherent danger to a ship going to a Class C port. The ins company may proscribe certain systems based on specific situation and/or prohibit leaving Imperial Space, etc.

 

[fusor]

All this talk of insurance and mortgages sends me to sleep! I don't play roleplaying games to be an accountant or to worry about this sort of thing, I have enough of that in real life!

IMO, what happens if they lose their ship?

a) They find another one (e.g an alien derelict, or abandoned/crashed ship), they inherit one, they pull some favours and get loaned a new one, or buy one with a dubious past for really cheap).
b) They steal another one.
c) They don't have their own ship anymore. They get from planet to planet as passengers, or they're stuck on a planet, until (a) or (b) happens.

Spare me the bean-counting, and get back to the game!

 

[HG_B]

All this talk of insurance and mortgages sends me to sleep! I don't play roleplaying games to be an accountant or to worry about this sort of thing, I have enough of that in real life!

Sure, to each his own. You can do away with ship mortgages entirely. Or, money in any form if that is your preferred play style.