So you've lost your ship - what now?

[captainjack]

I REALLY don't think anyone is suggesting PRing the Ins payments. Anymore than you RP a mortgage payment. It is HAVING one that is being discussed. Did you SERIOUSLY think anyone on this thread meant to RP meeting with Ins & bank guys in that manner?

I suspect it's due to inexperience with traveller as opposed to more mainstream RPGs. A patron using a massive debt to turn the screws on a character to do somthing wildly dangerous or illegal is bread and butter for a traveller campaign, as opposed to : "you meet a mysterious stranger who asks you to clean out a dungeon". Rollplaying the meeting where the hammer drops is boring ?

Fusor, if I want to use this in a game, my characters are at least going to say, "hey can he do that ?" to which I can reply either "yeah, he can he's the dark stranger in the tavern, and that's what the adventure says, right ?" or, "heck yes he can, as the lawyer shows you.... the insurance company....payment...investigation....sold debt.....etc". This kind of discussion helps immensely with that. Or, I guess I could just have them roll a d20+stat+skill level to see if they wriggle out of it and move on. Wheee.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[HG_B]

I suspect it's due to inexperience with traveller as opposed to more mainstream RPGs.

Okay, that makes sense. When discussing this type of thing I assume it is with Trav GMs who know how to recognize and use "pressure points" in order to create scenarios.

 

[aramis]

Okay, that makes sense. When discussing this type of thing I assume it is with Trav GMs who know how to recognize and use "pressure points" in order to create scenarios.

The big pressure points on losing a ship, based loosely upon the above:

• Liability to fares: how much do you owe the shippers, passengers, and next of kin of the passengers?
• Liability to financer: How much do you owe them?
• Liability to crew: Salary after? None? Prorate? Full Month? Full Contract duration? Injury benefits?
• Liability to insurer, guarantor, and/or government: proving non-collusion. Obtaining any benefits one is entitled to.
• Damage to reputation & credit rating
• obtaining a new ship is an adventure all itself... If the GM and players so wish

IMTU, there is no tramp freighter comprehensive insurance... loans are guaranteed by the government, through ministry of trade, so the loaning bank needs to establish that they vetted the borrower... but if they can establish that the borrower was suitably vetted, and the borrower can establish non-collusion in the loss of ship, then the IMoT will make the payments and/or pay off the note's balance to the bank... but ONLY the remaining balance.

Why no loan insurance? Because the IMoT doesn't want it... they don't want undue restrictions, and the dangerous areas are the places which most desperately NEED shipping.... the places an insurer won't let ships go! The IMoT Guarantees loans for several reasons... one, it's good for getting banks to loan in the first place. Two, it allows more marginal individuals to get loans. Three, it allows for more marginal loans to be put forward. And where that's not enough, IMoT has a standard subsidy contract... and Subsidy contracts are often for places a standard IMoT loan just can't turn a profit on freight.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Places that insurer's won't let ships go?

I don't know about that. From years of listening to the news, it appears to me that Lloyds of London lets ships sail directly into what amounts to be war zones.

 

[aramis]

Places that insurer's won't let ships go?

I don't know about that. From years of listening to the news, it appears to me that Lloyds of London lets ships sail directly into what amounts to be war zones.

But only at prices that make smuggling the only practical option for a tramp to make back the cost of the insurance. Many of their customers have limited coverage... repatriation and cargo liability, not full coverage.

And mostly, Lloyds knows that their repatriation offers will be accepted. Lloyds can track most of their insured big ships by satellite. They can have an offer ready almost the moment the ship is attacked. And they know just how much they can and will pay.

It's this credibility and tracking issue that is missing due to the time lag in the no-FTL commo. The insurers have a duty to their shareholders to do two things:
1) pay out as little as possible in order to make a profit
2) charge as much as they can get away with in order to make a profit.

Pay as little:

a diversion to cars: My insurance company has a paragraph of nullifications... if I'm committing a crime, if I'm not on the North American Continent, if any person is not properly restrained (seatbelts), if I'm driving the vehicle for hire, if I'm carrying passengers for pay as my job*, if I'm carrying paying passengers... The shipping industry has similar no-pay condition lists on their insurance.

Failing a no-pay condition, one places restrictions, as well. The insurance isn't voided by most of them. For example, my insurance requires that all persons be restrained by seatbelts whenever the vehicle is in motion. THey can't enforce it directly, but if I get ticketed, my insurance will go up. If I'm in a wreck and someone's unbelted, they simply won't pay for that person's injury...

Maximizing income: they need to charge as much as they can extract from the market. This doesn't mean case by case, per se, but if they can, sure. But the more people they can enroll, the more they make

The combination results in a variety of policies of various coverages... the more expensive, the less restrictive the no-pay and rate-increase clauses and/or the faster the payout.

In game, it's hard to quantify insurance rates in general. Add in the effects of information lag, offer lag, and scrap value, and insurance rates seem to be pretty opaque, and probably prohibitively high or extremely restrictive. And the investigations will have to be long, local, or cursory... which decreases the odds of finding a no-pay condition. It also means long delays in payouts, which reduces people's willingness to pay for it.

And past a certain point, people become better off simply stashing the insurance payment in a local bank rather than paying the insurance company... that point comes sooner the higher the insurance premium is.

It becomes, for MTU, just much easier for the IMoT to guarantee the loans, rather than worry about insurance.

 

[HG_B]

Why no loan insurance? Because the IMoT doesn't want it...

That's a good, logical system you've put together. However, you DO have a form of loan insurance. Just by a different name and system. But, it is different. More workable too given the nature of the OTU physical realities.

 

[RainOfSteel]

How about this?

The mortgage (or Imperial ministry) covers the functions of a liability insurance. If the ship is lost, the debt is paid. For basic game functions, this adds no complexity, and makes sure that the player cannot be stuck with a ridiculous debt.

If the starship owner wants replacement insurance, he or she must obtain that separately.

 

[jawillroy]

How about this?

The mortgage (or Imperial ministry) covers the functions of a liability insurance. If the ship is lost, the debt is paid. For basic game functions, this adds no complexity, and makes sure that the player cannot be stuck with a ridiculous debt.

If the starship owner wants replacement insurance, he or she must obtain that separately.

It seems like that agrees pretty well with Aramis' rationale, which I also like. Keeps things clean and easy.

Once a captain loses a ship, though, it strikes me that it's going to be that much harder for him to secure a loan for the next one. If the lender is vetting properly, that last ship-loss incident is going to loom pretty large.

 

[HG_B]

Once a captain loses a ship, though, it strikes me that it's going to be that much harder for him to secure a loan for the next one. If the lender is vetting properly, that last ship-loss incident is going to loom pretty large.

Yes, unless he can prove conclusively that the loss wasn't due to any deficiencies of his command, he'll never get another loan for a ship.

 

[Frankymole]

And past a certain point, people become better off simply stashing the insurance payment in a local bank rather than paying the insurance company...

Or forming a co-operative (for merchants below the subsector line level, if not Free Traders only) like a kind of benevolent society or credit union; although the flip side of such mutuality might be "protection" rackets for visiting traders who try to muscle in on the "manor" without paying in.

 

[jawillroy]

although the flip side of such mutuality might be "protection" rackets for visiting traders who try to muscle in on the "manor" without paying in.

Oh, excellent. "Hailing the trader inbound: it'd be a crying shame if someone, you know, were to laser a turret off your luv'ly ship. Why don't you visit the guild hall dirtside, we can all have a nice chat and spare you a load o' bovver..."

 

[rancke]

Oh, excellent. "Hailing the trader inbound: it'd be a crying shame if someone, you know, were to laser a turret off your luv'ly ship. Why don't you visit the guild hall dirtside, we can all have a nice chat and spare you a load o' bovver..."

"Be a pity if someone accidentally dropped a cargo container on your expensive laser cannon."

But seriously, dropping a spanner on a foot or mugging someone down a dark alley is one thing. Firing a laser cannon at a starship is something the Imperial Navy would have difficulty overlooking.

A local spacefarer's guild/protection racket is a nice idea, but don't make them so powerful that the PCs can't buck them.


Hans

 

[jawillroy]

"Be a pity if someone accidentally dropped a cargo container on your expensive laser cannon."

But seriously, dropping a spanner on a foot or mugging someone down a dark alley is one thing. Firing a laser cannon at a starship is something the Imperial Navy would have difficulty overlooking.

A local spacefarer's guild/protection racket is a nice idea, but don't make them so powerful that the PCs can't buck them.


Hans

Sounds about right to me.

 

[pendragonman]

"Be a pity if someone accidentally dropped a cargo container on your expensive laser cannon."

But seriously, dropping a spanner on a foot or mugging someone down a dark alley is one thing. Firing a laser cannon at a starship is something the Imperial Navy would have difficulty overlooking.

A local spacefarer's guild/protection racket is a nice idea, but don't make them so powerful that the PCs can't buck them.


Hans

No importing/exporting or buying/selling speculative cargoes without hiring one of our "brokerage advisors". Dead air for a minute...You, my friend are in luck! We have one available to help you right now, in fact! His name is Vinnie No-nose, and he will meet you at your landing pad for exchange of documents and to accept your payment!

 

[aramis]

"Be a pity if someone accidentally dropped a cargo container on your expensive laser cannon."

But seriously, dropping a spanner on a foot or mugging someone down a dark alley is one thing. Firing a laser cannon at a starship is something the Imperial Navy would have difficulty overlooking.

A local spacefarer's guild/protection racket is a nice idea, but don't make them so powerful that the PCs can't buck them.


Hans

IMTU, I pulled that on a group of players, including a retired cluster count... The resulting regime change in the local system resulted in an Imperial Marine occupation....

 

[captainjack]

IMTU, I pulled that on a group of players, including a retired cluster count... The resulting regime change in the local system resulted in an Imperial Marine occupation....

And who says that in traveller it's impossible for players to significantly change the setting....

....well, possibly change it for the better......

 

[aramis]

And who says that in traveller it's impossible for players to significantly change the setting....

....well, possibly change it for the better......

Thing is, the imperium makes its money from member worlds, from megacorporate ownership, and from user fees (Xmail, Xwire, merc licenses, ship licensure). Since most starports are at least partially megacorporate, the imperium has a strong incentive to produce free trade and maximum flexibility of trade. The megacorps get by on economies of scale and vertical integration...

The Imperium also, however, wants to limit travel, as the wider travel becomes, the more likely shared identity arises... which is why passages are pricefixed. The Imperium wants lots of local trade but not lots of passenger service... and the pricefixed per jump pricing does EXACTLY that... it makes commercial passenger service mostly short range. Its still profitable at J2... barely... but it's a losing proposition at J3+

 

[rancke]

The Imperium also, however, wants to limit travel, as the wider travel becomes, the more likely shared identity arises... which is why passages are pricefixed. The Imperium wants lots of local trade but not lots of passenger service... and the pricefixed per jump pricing does EXACTLY that... it makes commercial passenger service mostly short range. Its still profitable at J2... barely... but it's a losing proposition at J3+

It is indeed a losing proposition if the price structure is really the way it is implied by some of the game rules we have for running free traders. Despite this, we know for a fact that jump-3 and jump-4 traffic is alive and well in the Imperium, having several canonical examples of such ships (and mention of routes that employ them). The logical conclusion is that the price stucture is portrayed erroneously -- perhaps to simplify gaming.

Incidentally, given the canonical existence of jump-3 and jump-4 traffic, if the Imperium is indeed fixing the price of tickets (which assumes it is actually able to do so, a very iffy proposition given how ineffectual it is usually portrayed), it would, in fact, be supporting long-distance travel by forcing the lines to carry people and freight along for less than the real cost. (Just how the Imperium forces all these lines to carry passengers and freight in the first place is a huge mystery -- but evidently it does).


Hans

 

[aramis]

The canonical prices DO turn a profit at J4 for cargo only on megafreighters. Very slim, but sufficient... And a slim one for sufficiently large ships at J3.... in the 2000T range.

And, if one has sufficient marketing and vertical integration, the price of shipping doesn't matter nearly as much.

 

[rancke]

The canonical prices DO turn a profit at J4 for cargo only on megafreighters. Very slim, but sufficient... And a slim one for sufficiently large ships at J3.... in the 2000T range.

Even if that is true[*], it doesn't help explain the existence of 600 and 1000T jump-3 and jump-4 passenger liners.

[*] And if jump-4 megafreighters can turn a slim profit on Cr1000/T, jump-1 megafreighters would be able to turn a HUGE profit on Cr1000/T -- something that implies a much tighter Imperial control of the member worlds than the Imperium is otherwise shown to exercise.​

And the Imperium would still be supporting rather than repressing long-distance travel.


Hans