Non OTU: Social Standing and Noble Titles

[whulorigan]

Similarly, I've picked up MgT's LBB Dilettante and it essentially advocates the idea of detaching noble title from Soc, but the methodology seems to be a bit ornate and somewhat slightly arcane.

MgT seems to have conflated the two T5 concepts of Fame on the one hand, and Social Standing on the other. The two are not the same. This part of Dilettante needs to be reworked, IMHO.

I have no problem with the idea of using a Fame scale that is on the same relative scale as Social Standing as regards the extent of the Fame (i.e. a Fame=15 individual and a Soc=15 individual both being associated with a Subsector/Sector level. But a Fame=15 individual should still only be Soc=10 at most unless he has a separately granted Noble Title of Knight or higher. On the other hand, a Soc=15 individual probably should automatically have Fame=15 as a consequence of his Social Standing.

 

[Quint]

MgT seems to have conflated the two T5 concepts of Fame on the one hand, and Social Standing on the other. The two are not the same. This part of Dilettante needs to be reworked, IMHO.

I have no problem with the idea of using a Fame scale that is on the same realtive scale as Social Standing as regards the extent of the Fame (i.e. a Fame=15 individual and a Soc=15 individual both being associated with a Subsector/Sector level. But a Fame=15 individual should still only be Soc=10 at most unless he has a separately granted Noble Title of Knight or higher. On the other hand, a Soc=15 individual probably should automatically have Fame=15 as a consequence of his Social Standing.

Yeah, that's a good point and I agree. I guess I'm trying to come up with a mechanic which allows for some one of great wealth and influence but who doesn't have to have a title - which the OTU seems to be impossible.

D.

 

[aramis]

Yeah, that's a good point and I agree. I guess I'm trying to come up with a mechanic which allows for some one of great wealth and influence but who doesn't have to have a title - which the OTU seems to be impossible.

D.

Here's a house rule for you...
Increases of Soc can't exceed fame; use the lower of the two rolls for Soc at CGen.
When Soc raises are received, if they would take soc above fame, instead raise fame.

 

[Drakon]

Yeah, that's a good point and I agree. I guess I'm trying to come up with a mechanic which allows for some one of great wealth and influence but who doesn't have to have a title - which the OTU seems to be impossible.

D.

Just because someone offers you a title does not mean one must accept it. One could be the head of a MegaCorp, and look down on the nobility as parasitical and useless, a left over from a bygone era, anachronistic. He works for a living, and is proud of it. Class warfare and solidarity and all that. There are several reasons one might decline a title.

 

[Quint]

Just because someone offers you a title does not mean one must accept it. One could be the head of a MegaCorp, and look down on the nobility as parasitical and useless, a left over from a bygone era, anachronistic. He works for a living, and is proud of it. Class warfare and solidarity and all that. There are several reasons one might decline a title.

LOL! True, but that doesn't really seem to fit the OTU for the most part where doing such would seem to be social and perhaps political suicide. Besides, I'm would suspect that either the titles (in a OTU analog) aren't offered unless it relatively certain that they will be accepted (so as to not embarrass the Emperor or Archduke) or they aren't actually optional, e.g. "if you want this position, you take this title" because that is how rank titles in the OTU work. Honor titles are optional, rank titles are not.

Again, this is where the "real world exemplars" and the OTU start to fall apart rather quickly.

D.

 

[rancke]

I don't know they might still be a subculture that keeps the old bloodlines, traditions and culture alive.

Oh sure. There are people who keep track of who's the current High King of Ireland and the Emperor of Austria.

As well, I think it might in a society that has nobles that work in the government along with folks who don't have titles, basically a shared power structure.

A system where you can get a position of power because of your birth or because of your abilities, and the two methods are equal? Theoretically, I suppose.

Although as I stated earlier Soc C does not equal Nob C. They are two different Characteristic 6s, not the same C6, you have one or the other but not both.

Exactly what I've been arguing. You have one or the other but not both.

I think it something about not being popular and a celebrity since you make reference to the A-list. Frankly, I am not sure why the A-list matters, they aren't nobles so they really don't function in the same realms.

Access to the social elite is limited (In 19th Century New York, Mrs William Backhouse Astor, Jr's ballroom could accommodate 400 people (or 400 couples, I'm not sure)). If someone gets an invitation to a social function, someone else doesn't get an invitation. If you choose middle class architect Count Whosis over Permanent Undersecretary Whatchermaycallhim, then the noble title counts for more than the government position. If you choose Whatchermaycallhim over Whosis, then the government position counts for more than the noble title.


Hans

 

[Drakon]

LOL! True, but that doesn't really seem to fit the OTU for the most part where doing such would seem to be social and perhaps political suicide. Besides, I'm would suspect that either the titles (in a OTU analog) aren't offered unless it relatively certain that they will be accepted (so as to not embarrass the Emperor or Archduke) or they aren't actually optional, e.g. "if you want this position, you take this title" because that is how rank titles in the OTU work. Honor titles are optional, rank titles are not.

So, your CEO of the megacorp was never offered a title. As he is not in the noble career, that becomes secondary.

I am not so sure that not having a title, or turning it down is necessarily social suicide. You would that interesting fellow. As for political, if you have enough money, most politicians overlooks things like titles.

As for the position, that only applies to a government or noble career. If you are CEO of a Megacorp, you're probably not going to be part of the government as well.

Unless you are Lex Luthor....

 

[Quint]

A system where you can get a position of power because of your birth or because of your abilities, and the two methods are equal? Theoretically, I suppose.


Exactly what I've been arguing. You have one or the other but not both.

Access to the social elite is limited (In 19th Century New York, Mrs William Backhouse Astor, Jr's ballroom could accommodate 400 people (or 400 couples, I'm not sure)). If someone gets an invitation to a social function, someone else doesn't get an invitation. If you choose middle class architect Count Whosis over Permanent Undersecretary Whatchermaycallhim, then the noble title counts for more than the government position. If you choose Whatchermaycallhim over Whosis, then the government position counts for more than the noble title.

And I guess that my argument is that if we're positing that the two things are different (and I do think that this is a reasonable assertion) that there is no logical reason why you can't have both. Why couldn't you be both an economic powerhouse that comes from a middle-class family but can still live like a Duke and gets treated like one in almost all ways, but who has no title, or perhaps only a knighthood (Sir Mick indeed...).

He's not going to be treated like "just a knight" (whatever that means) but at the same time he's nobody is going to mistake him for a Duke either. Most of the time his economic weight matters the most, sometimes it's the knighthood, and sometimes (maybe even most of the time) it's a gestalt synergy between the two.

D.

 

[Quint]

So, your CEO of the megacorp was never offered a title. As he is not in the noble career, that becomes secondary.

I am not so sure that not having a title, or turning it down is necessarily social suicide. You would that interesting fellow. As for political, if you have enough money, most politicians overlooks things like titles.

As for the position, that only applies to a government or noble career. If you are CEO of a Megacorp, you're probably not going to be part of the government as well.

Unless you are Lex Luthor....

Except, if we are at least drawing from CT then the CEO (aka Bureaucrat) can be granted Noble Titles by virtue of service (Rank 5-6 get a +1 on rolls, which is +1 Soc in the mustering out tables). It is utterly clear in the OTU that a getting a title is far from outside the realm of merely being noble.

Ignoring Bks 4+ we can see that high rank Marines, Army, Sailors, Flyers, and Bureaucrats can all muster out with the chance of a title. Scientists and Rogues (no rank at all) can as well. Diplomats and Navy can gain it through the normal course of play as well as during the mustering out process. Doctors can get in through the normal course of generation but not through mustering out. Furthermore, high Soc is the modifier for Position in the Bureaucrat career (and is part of the Enlistment and Promotion bonus in Diplomats) further conceptually linking "nobility" (or least gentle-birth) and "economic/corporate status" - essentially the same gentle or noble birth helps in the Navy (where it also provides a Position bonus).

Ignore the OTU, that's simply "da rulz" - LOL!

D.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah-ha!

Oh sure. There are people who keep track of who's the current High King of Ireland and the Emperor of Austria.


A system where you can get a position of power because of your birth or because of your abilities, and the two methods are equal? Theoretically, I suppose.


Exactly what I've been arguing. You have one or the other but not both.


Access to the social elite is limited (In 19th Century New York, Mrs William Backhouse Astor, Jr's ballroom could accommodate 400 people (or 400 couples, I'm not sure)). If someone gets an invitation to a social function, someone else doesn't get an invitation. If you choose middle class architect Count Whosis over Permanent Undersecretary Whatchermaycallhim, then the noble title counts for more than the government position. If you choose Whatchermaycallhim over Whosis, then the government position counts for more than the noble title.


Hans

Well, now I got ya. Thank you for taking the time to explain it.

 

[Dagrill]

So, as I return to an actual set of Traveller rules, I running into one of those problems that I haven't had to deal with for awhile - mapping Social Standing and Noble Titles together (plus Party Standing, Charisma, Caste, etc etc etc)
Has anyone "detached" Noble titles from Social Standing - and if so how have they done it? Thoughts? Comments?

Hi,

I see the junior Nobility - Knight, Baronets and Barons as meritocratic, awarded to people who have earned it and have the finances to support it,
(the same way successful naval officer's that received knighthoods also received a stipend from parliament to support their new social position in the 18/19th C's), so I see Soc B and C as such. To a non noble all nobility would be perceived as Soc C.

I don't use the high nobility in my campaigns, I noticed an adventure where the characters met Norris, IMTU, they would meet a seneschal, or similar Knight or Baron of SOC B or C.

Within the Nobility I assume there are various means of keeping track of their
relative social position, ie members of so and so's family are considered Soc 0
because the followed the wrong pretender in the civil war, or lost Terra (or other planet to the Solomani, Vargr, Aslan, or whatever), whilst others that have the emperor's ear are considered higher than their actual title might suggest.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Chuck Anumia]

I Like it!

Here's a house rule for you...
Increases of Soc can't exceed fame; use the lower of the two rolls for Soc at CGen.
When Soc raises are received, if they would take soc above fame, instead raise fame.

Social Class > Fame
(During CharGen, when offered Social increase; Fame cannot exceed Social score)

Fame may be level F without Soc above level 9 (Famous, Non-Nobel, Entertainer or MegaCorp Exec, etc.)
Soc above 9 = Fame 9 or better

A Commoner "A-List" does not equal A "Nobel" A-List priorities (though there may be some crossover)
A Commoner Fame 15/ Soc 9 remains a Commoner
A Nobel with Soc C equals Fame C or better

Honor Nobles receive patents from the emperor for heroism in the military, success in civil or commercial enterprise, or innovation and discovery in the sciences. Only patents for knights, baronets, barons and marquis may be issued for achievement.
Rank Nobles are given because of a citizen's position. Rank nobility belong to one of two subtypes.
Local Nobility: Serve as Imperial representatives in systems that have a government somehow not conductive to administration by high nobility. Patents for rank nobles are typically hereditary, and are equivalent to barons and knights.
Administrators: Citizens who hold Imperial Office. Often they are administrators of worlds or territories with no formal Imperial representation. These patents are not hereditary as they are tied to a position. If they retire from that position they are allowed to continue to use the title, but it does not pass down.

High Nobles are the smallest segment of the peerage, consisting of people belonging to old and powerful families. High noble titles are given for: "Political support in office, victory in the military, or contributions or economic assistance from the commercial sector" beyond any reasonable expectation. These nobles directly administer Imperial territories and are personal representatives of the Emperor. They manage and direct the Imperial Bureaucracy.
Hereditary, high nobles are trained from birth to lead. High peers have precedence in the peerage, and even their barons are immensely powerful.
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Nobility

 

[flykiller]

Has anyone "detached" Noble titles from Social Standing - and if so how have they done it?

ss 12- - imperial citizen, citizen of a homeworld

ss 13+ - citizen of the imperium proper. nobility.

13 - knight (imperial agent)
14 - baronette - functionary
15 - baron - noble in charge of a world
16 - count - noble in charge of a world with jump capability and all worlds within range of a single jump of that capability
17 - marquis - noble in charge of a world with military jump capability (j4+) and all worlds in range of a single jump of that capability (thus the spinward marches)
18 - duke - noble in charge of a sector

 

[Enoki]

I take a different tact on nobility to some degree. For the lower ranked nobles up through baron these positions might be inherited but are more often awarded to an individual for their accomplishments and social position outside noble circles.

That is, a knight or baron might have been given that title for accomplishments in military service, business, the arts, etc. So you literally could have a real "robber baron" as a business leader. His political authority is influence but he doesn't control a world. Rather, he controls Imperial business interests for the Emperor, dukes, and the like.
If you note in the wiki, most mega corporations have serious ties to the emperor and other nobility. Given the slowness of interstellar travel, these top leaders would need someone they trust to handle corporate affairs locally. So, you have a baron (or a small number of them like a board of directors) who controls the corporate interests of one mega corporation in say a subsector or on a number of adjoining systems. These guys would move around on the equivalent of a Lear jet with say a J4 capacity to let them get places relatively quick.
Knight level nobles in business roles would direct world operations for a corporation.
This gives business leaders access to noble circles being ones themselves and at the same time keeps them out of direct political affairs except as it influences their business operations. Such titles might be hereditary and you could have family dynasties in business operations just as in politics. The advantage for top nobility with this arrangement would be they'd know just which family to put a message in with to get things done and long held family titles would mean greater economic stability as the leadership is vetted and trusted.

The same would be true of say an actor, artist, or top academic. They would receive knighthood to allow them access to the "right" people and make travel easier. It would also be an award for their success. They'd have no political or economic power other than what personal wealth and influence they possess. But, within their own circle being nobility becomes something of a status symbol.
These titles would not become hereditary. They are specific to the person involved and it would be rare, even if their social standing increased, that they'd move beyond being a knight.

Of course, archdukes, dukes, and counts would still be the political power in any sector or subsector, along with those barons whose titles derived from hereditary positions in politics.

One other non-canon thing I do with all nobles is that once per year they have to make a serious monetary contribution to the emperor as a sign of fealty. So, each knight has to make this contribution to the baron he is tied to, barons, to a viscount or count, etc., with each higher noble keeping check on the lower ones contributions. Would there be cheating? Probably, almost certainly, but the system means the empire accumulates wealth too with a steady flow of noble contributions fed from taxes on the commoners as well as the earnings of nobles themselves (who are often exempt from other taxes).

 

[kilemall]

Hmmm, guess I would entirely ignore SOC as a factor in terms of a celebrity or entertainer, other then being 'well thought of' and eligible to move in higher or lower circles. Rank should deal in matters of fame and power within their respective community/industry.

The same arguably IS used for military or diplomatic/bureaucratic rank being detached from SOC, and could be used if one were to build a COTI career for the actual leadership of the Imperium or Your Traveller Universe Equivalent.

Just for an example, use the Nobles from COTI only make the entry point be B. Then, detach SOC from rank, SOC increase only being a personal development or mustering out benefit. That gives the Imperium a much larger population to select talent from and keeps Old Guard nobility on it's toes.

1. Planetary Subfief
2. Planetary Fief
3. System Governor
4. District Governor
5. Subsector Duke
6. Sector Duke

 

[Condottiere]

It's a reflection of your place in society.

But the complexity of notoriety, influence, wealth and power really need separate subcharacteristics.