social standing

[Ishmael]

after reading about the rules in MT and T4, it becomes obvious that soc is based almost purely on money spent maintaining a particular lifestyle. Spend less than 250*soc a month on lifestyle above and beyond equipment and other adventuring costs, and your soc drops. Soc can be increased by spending more on lifestyle maintenance.

The nobility angle is simply a perk where a very high soc gives a level of governmental authority.

Given that soc is so closely tied to money, then perhaps it should be rolled first during chargen and then be used as a modifier for all other characteristic rolls except Intelligence.
Less wealth growing up means lower nutrition and medical availability causing Str, Dex and End to be less at the start, and Education would be similarly affected by poor classroms and less chance for educationally enriching experiences. More wealth growing up would give the opposite. Underfunded Community College vs. Harvard.

Most of the people pc's will run into will be low soc, simple because of wealth/income distribution.
Low soc does not mean criminal, low soc means poor.

Can a poor kid from the streets of the Sprawl make it in the universe?
Or would a trust-fund prep-school grad have better chance?
Soc makes a difference here.

I still think this should be separated from social skills such as innate charisma and charm.

 

[flykiller]

In a modern, or let's say post modern, society, it's a great dual more nuanced

or no longer comprehended ...

The nobility angle is simply a perk

... for example.

That depends ENTIRELY on how you ref it.

well, sure. the ref can say whatever he wants. but I'm hoping for coherence.

 

[flykiller]

Economic control of people, whether through outright slavery, employment terms and conditions, or subsistence dole

The core essence of SOC.

no. the core essence of SOC is that the ruled accept and buy into the reason why the rulers rule.

 

[Iracundus]

after reading about the rules in MT and T4, it becomes obvious that soc is based almost purely on money spent maintaining a particular lifestyle. Spend less than 250*soc a month on lifestyle above and beyond equipment and other adventuring costs, and your soc drops. Soc can be increased by spending more on lifestyle maintenance.

The nobility angle is simply a perk where a very high soc gives a level of governmental authority.

Given that soc is so closely tied to money, then perhaps it should be rolled first during chargen and then be used as a modifier for all other characteristic rolls except Intelligence.
Less wealth growing up means lower nutrition and medical availability causing Str, Dex and End to be less at the start, and Education would be similarly affected by poor classroms and less chance for educationally enriching experiences. More wealth growing up would give the opposite. Underfunded Community College vs. Harvard.

Most of the people pc's will run into will be low soc, simple because of wealth/income distribution.
Low soc does not mean criminal, low soc means poor.

Can a poor kid from the streets of the Sprawl make it in the universe?
Or would a trust-fund prep-school grad have better chance?
Soc makes a difference here.

I still think this should be separated from social skills such as innate charisma and charm.

Money is not the only factor affecting SOC IMO. Think of the trope of old money families down on their luck needing to marry a daughter off to a rich businessman. In other words a high SOC low money person marrying a low/medium SOC person with lots of cash.

The noveau rich may have lots of cash and conspicuous consumption might help raise SOC somewhat. I would still think that there would be a point where cash alone is insufficient, and they would need to show they had the proper manners, good taste, and behavior before they could raise their SOC further (i.e. being accepted into high society). If they don't, they may be looked down upon as gaudy and uncouth despite their cash.

Low SOC and high EDU may mean the character was smart or won a scholarship. High SOC and low EDU may mean a character that could have gone to expensive schools but failed or barely slipped through on account of connections.

 

[kilemall]

The funny thing is that having a hard social standing attribute is more suitable for a medieval campaign, upto steampunk Victorian.

In a modern, or let's say post modern, society, it's a great dual more nuanced outside of those that wield executive power, from sector dukes till the Emperor.

That's the thing, multiple tribes/classes/what have you have to get along and be functional professionally. Different if you are 'at home' in 'your neighborhood' with 'your people' where you can let your hair down. When not amongst your people, you stay in professional mode or be a fish out of water.

I have to think most of us see how that model simulates everyday RW work and home life, even if the 'rolls' I am proposing are technically disagreeable.

 

[kilemall]

no. the core essence of SOC is that the ruled accept and buy into the reason why the rulers rule.

That may be an effective argument for what is going on with SOC A+, but it skips the self-interest and mechanisms the A+ are using to keep that power and economic rewards/control they perpetuate, and skips over the nuances of what it means to be SOC 8-9 (not in power per se but better off or the supporting class of the rulers), or what the difference is in being SOC 7 vs. SOC 3.

Putting in mannerisms and economic resource mechanisms means SOC is a much richer stat then <check Yacht benefit Y/N?>.

 

[kilemall]

Money is not the only factor affecting SOC IMO. Think of the trope of old money families down on their luck needing to marry a daughter off to a rich businessman. In other words a high SOC low money person marrying a low/medium SOC person with lots of cash.

The noveau rich may have lots of cash and conspicuous consumption might help raise SOC somewhat. I would still think that there would be a point where cash alone is insufficient, and they would need to show they had the proper manners, good taste, and behavior before they could raise their SOC further (i.e. being accepted into high society). If they don't, they may be looked down upon as gaudy and uncouth despite their cash.

Low SOC and high EDU may mean the character was smart or won a scholarship. High SOC and low EDU may mean a character that could have gone to expensive schools but failed or barely slipped through on account of connections.

This man Gets It.

 

[Condottiere]

We have a pretty good idea how social standing works, trying to define education in an advanced society is a lot more difficult, since that would be access, exposure, comprehension, retention and manipulation of knowledge, but intelligence would be involved in comprehension and manipulation part of it.

 

[Iracundus]

We have a pretty good idea how social standing works, trying to define education in an advanced society is a lot more difficult, since that would be access, exposure, comprehension, retention and manipulation of knowledge, but intelligence would be involved in comprehension and manipulation part of it.

EDU is formal education exposure and performance. INT is natural intelligence and ability to manipulate information and be flexible. EDU scale I think is defined in terms of the broader society (i.e. interstellar society). So a native born and educated literate person on a regressed very low tech world would still have a low EDU score even though they may be considered well educated by the planet's standards.

High INT and low EDU means natural smarts but little formal education. Think of cunning street urchins that would not be able to list the Emperors (or Imperiums).

Low INT and high EDU may mean a pedant who may have a lot of amassed knowledge but little ability to put it to novel use to deal with unexpected situations. They still might do very well and know a lot in their own narrow field of expertise though.

 

[Selandia]

Money is not the only factor affecting SOC IMO.
...
The noveau rich may have lots of cash and conspicuous consumption might help raise SOC somewhat. I would still think that there would be a point where cash alone is insufficient, and they would need to show they had the proper manners, good taste, and behavior before they could raise their SOC further (i.e. being accepted into high society). If they don't, they may be looked down upon as gaudy and uncouth despite their cash.

agreed
beside, cash and high SOC may be colateral results of Fame. Pick a Pop or Sport Star. Elton Jones became a formal "Sir" way after he was bowed to on the street. This problem of subjective social recognition (people love/are aware of you) get handled through Fame in T5. SOC become more of an objective social recognition (people love/hate your money or power)

have fun

Selandia

 

[flykiller]

no. the core essence of SOC is that the ruled accept and buy into the reason why the rulers rule.

That may be an effective argument for what is going on with SOC A+, but it skips the self-interest and mechanisms the A+ are using to keep that power and economic rewards/control they perpetuate

not an argument, an observation. and the reason it "skips past" self-interest and mechanisms is because it is the result that counts.

but, of course, some mechanisms work, and some don't. mere force may work on those who recognize mere force as justification for rule by another, but it won't work on those who don't. mere force and shared loot may work on those who recognize mere force and shared loot as justification for rule by another, but it won't work on those who don't and those who don't share. and mere "self-interest" on the part of the rulers, recognized by the ruled, won't work on anyone anywhere at any time for any reason.