social standing
- Thread starter flykiller
- Start date
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
But, the nobility would have good reason to expose their rival nobles such that the population becomes stirred up against them. That is leaking negative publicity, stories that cause the masses to be angered or revulsed by nobility's excesses. Sort of trying to make their rivals out to be a Caligula of sorts.
An internal uprising in a rival's power base is a good thing if you're a noble bent on grabbing more power.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
That would require you having considerable assets already in place in your enemy's sectors.
Are you seriously suggesting that the dukes and archdukes of the Imperium spent decades establishing networks that could be used to sway public support in a 'friendly' duke's subsector?
I like that idea.... :devil: :CoW:
fits in with my views about how the Imperium really operates.
Are you seriously suggesting that the dukes and archdukes of the Imperium spent decades establishing networks that could be used to sway public support in a 'friendly' duke's subsector?
I like that idea.... :devil: :CoW:
fits in with my views about how the Imperium really operates.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Of course they'd do that. Pay off / buy off important bureaucrats, plant spies and operatives, and all of that. When you look at any imperial / monarchy / dictatorship they all do that sort of thing. The next tiers down from the ruler all "empire build" continuously. They seek to gain control of resources and power the others at their level have for themselves.
It could be something as simple as buying increasing shares of a mega corporation that operates mostly in a rival's portion of the empire. This might be done with proxies or by another means. If the rival seems vulnerable, our aspiring noble dumps stock causing the company to go into an economic tail spin to allow him to move in and "Save the day" so-to-speak.
Having pulled his rival's chestnuts out of the fire our noble asks for a "small" favor in return...
:devil:
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Two Questions
1. Would you live in such a society as you describe?
2. Is this the society that your player have to deal with, or are they all nobles?
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Not by choice, but it wouldn't be awful either. For the common man most of what the nobles are doing is between them. Stirring up the masses occurs rarely and only if conditions are right.
Even then, for most people a civil revolt won't effect every system. The ones with the real political power are the most likely to take the brunt of it.
If they are a noble they get a pass at things like customs for the most part. But, they are also in the news and the local nobility may want them to attend state functions, show up for a photo op, or otherwise be inconvenienced with matters of state or business. They make news.
That makes being noble and keeping a low profile difficult. That in turn limits their options to doing things.
Having a noble in the party makes things difficult for the party if they aren't willing to be part of his / her retinue. That is, if he and/or they are acting as equals then it becomes an issue for all of them when they interact with outsiders / NPC. These see a noble with a crew of commoners. The noble's not in charge and not being treated differentially. He's one of the guys so to speak. If that gets out he's now a social pariah in noble circles and treated as such. Where customs before was very hands off now its very hands on. The other nobles start sending a message through secondary means. You act your station or you get smacked down.
On the whole, being a noble is really something I'd think most players would want to avoid in my version of Traveller. You need means (cash). You need a retinue following you around. For a Knight this might be an executive assistant, maybe a bodyguard. For a Baron or Count, you better have an assistant or three, a bodyguard, maybe a couple of other advisers, a driver for your personal vehicle, and household staff. It goes up from there.
You can't go out and be say a mercenary or a free wheeling trader as a noble. Try it and you end up the equivalent of say a Ronin. You are without respect and lose privilege even as you retain your position.
The view I take is that "Noble" means something real and tangible. It is a vital and important part of who you are. Imperial or not, if you are nobility you must act the role or face the consequences.
That's distinctly different from a player who is from a noble family but not actually the title holder. Whether that's a bastard child or the fifth child daughter not to inherit, is of no matter. Now you have some social privilege but none of the political and economic responsibilities of the title holder.
You can be the Lieutenant who is an "Officer and Gentleman" who doesn't know who is father really is as the joke goes. But, your are also technically a SOC 10 or less as a result. Being an 11+ means taking on being a noble seriously and having to deal with the consequences of that.
So, my Princess Timerzhan character I put up about a month ago is forced into a station beneath her. How such a character will act is what the game is about. How would you deal with a Trading Places or Prince and the Pauper situation? That's how nobility should work. Either you take it seriously and work to maintain your position, or you end up being trampled into the dust by not just nobles but commoners as well.
I like the distinction between the social rank and actually having the family title, and the usual bastard children running around being 'better' then commoners and doing noble things but not carrying the burden.
Explains quite nicely the difference between a noble who happens to do a Navy/Scout whatever career, and one doing an explicitly Noble career.
Explains quite nicely the difference between a noble who happens to do a Navy/Scout whatever career, and one doing an explicitly Noble career.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I have been wondering about this, and this might be a good thread to ask the question.
Up to about 1870, it was possible to buy an officer's commission in the British Army for a set scale of prices, up to and including a regiment. Is this possible in the Imperium, to include the Navy?
Up to about 1870, it was possible to buy an officer's commission in the British Army for a set scale of prices, up to and including a regiment. Is this possible in the Imperium, to include the Navy?
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
Hell no! But, they've existed for almost all of human history. This is how nobility has obtained and maintained their power.
Yes. Non-noble players have had to. One instance was Abouka. This was a world of billions (Pop A), with a high law level (some letter), and a nasty government.
I made it out as a factory world where owners had deliberately set up a D starport to prevent workers fleeing as they'd never have an opportunity to get near a starship. Instead, only small craft went to and from a high port that was closely guarded and the ships carefully inspected.
Nobility and high ranking officers got a pass on everything. The security groveled when they accidently or had to check these people's identity at numerous control points. They were treated great.
The crew and commoners got kicked to the curb. Security was gruff and nasty to them. They were forced to eat in cafeterias where the food might be described as prison food or gruel.
I have that all the time. Nobles get a pass most times by authorities where commoners get thrown in jail. The down side to nobility is that you are expected (that is, required) to do all sorts of stuff that you might not want to. You have to present the proper image, so your living expenses are much higher. You have to rub elbows with other nobles and such. You can't just go wandering about in many cases because of your social position.
Who you surround yourself with is important too.
It makes being a noble as difficult, or even more difficult than being a commoner, just in new and often expensive ways. You fail to keep up appearances and you might find you're being black balled and now a social pariah.
IMTU, things are not all nice and friendly. Things tend to be complicated and full of intrigue.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
If we assume the Imperium Navy is based on the Royal Navy, the currency that greased those wheels were patronage, capability and achievements.
Personally, I've always hated 'social standing' in Trav because it represented both a form of interacting with others ( charisma ) and as a level of class, mostly used to check if someone is noble or not. Those two uses are too dissimilar to be so closely related by a single stat.
I've usually replaced it with 'ego' or charisma' or something. Lately I've taken to replace it with 'fortitude' such that Education, Intelligence and Fortitude are analogous to a mental form of Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance.
I mean, if 'social standing' is a level of influence in a society, then it's based, classically, on ;
1. social-economic class ( money is power )
2. fame ( people look up to you )
3. power ( position of authority )
And even then, this doesn't apply to all societies, but only to those within which you are known for these things. I'll bet there are large groups who count Frank Zappa as more influential than Carl XVI Gustav ( more hits on Google, fwiw, and definitely among music aficionados ), yet who is a noble and who isn't?
I just think 'social standing' is misused by Traveller and its link to nobility indicates a reliance on succession by birth and not ability.... sort of "Divine Right" in space.
I've usually replaced it with 'ego' or charisma' or something. Lately I've taken to replace it with 'fortitude' such that Education, Intelligence and Fortitude are analogous to a mental form of Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance.
I mean, if 'social standing' is a level of influence in a society, then it's based, classically, on ;
1. social-economic class ( money is power )
2. fame ( people look up to you )
3. power ( position of authority )
And even then, this doesn't apply to all societies, but only to those within which you are known for these things. I'll bet there are large groups who count Frank Zappa as more influential than Carl XVI Gustav ( more hits on Google, fwiw, and definitely among music aficionados ), yet who is a noble and who isn't?
I just think 'social standing' is misused by Traveller and its link to nobility indicates a reliance on succession by birth and not ability.... sort of "Divine Right" in space.
I have never gotten this impression from any of the OTU-Imperium materials concerning any of the branches of service. Achieving Officer Rank is thru academy-attendance (or OCS) and promotion is thru performance/achievement as in more modern militaries, though Soc is often a Die Modifier to promotion.
I.e., much more like the post-1870 British armed services.
HMMM, time to repost my take on SOC usage and rolls-
This one is very underutilized IMO in most TUs, besides the 'do I get a yacht' question and the matter of nobility privilege, and was the stat that got me thinking about the whole use of stats and how they are largely neutered in favor of skills.
I don't have a 1000 star empire with the emperor and 'loyal' vassals as organizing principle, just the opening phase of Earth's exploration and expansion. So I do not have nobles in the classic OTU sense.
Went through thinking about all manner of human history, cultures etc. and decided that this is a valid character differentiation. EVERY society, from ancient to modern democracy/communist/fascist setup, has stratas of people that are 'in' and 'in power', and those that are not.
Also, being human, the power elite AND the common citizen are IMO more comfortable dealing with people 'at their level' across cultures and nations moreso then 'their own kind' at a different social level. There is a behavioral element to one's 'place in society'.
Americans especially like to think that we are all one great big fluffy meritocracy hence ignoring this stat, but even so there is strata based on wealth if nothing else, with behaviors that apply.
I have read some Mongoose Traveller on 'keeping up' re: social events and what sort of neighborhood you live in at what price, and I like that. I think IMTU the stat is actually something tracked to include demographics, a valuation of the neighborhood the player lives in, credit rating/societal reputation, attitudes, honor, and associated behaviors.
So, I am amping up the use of SOC in three ways.
1) SOC can go up or down by player action in game. In particular scandals, conviction in crime, failing to meet financial obligations, or lack of activity within X community can drop the stat, increased wealth, moving into the right clubs/social circles, achievements and reputation can increase it. SOC can change more readily then the other stats.
Players will want to manage it carefully, if for the 'credit rating' aspects if nothing else, and can be a major RP element to increase or prevent dropping.
2) SOC is the base stat for Fiscal Checks.
For loans/investments, it would be a task check with appropriate skills such as Trader, Admin, etc. but basically who you know and what reputation you have, and how much you can expect to raise/be granted. Difficulty Level would be set by the referee by a number of factors in play, particularly how much the amount sought is divided by the character's income, under how much a cloud the character is under with LE or society in general, etc.
The flip side for the underclass is utilizing the power of The Street to work around society's conventions and resource allocation structure to get things done outside the rules set by the power elite. So Social Standing is the primary stat for Streetwise checks, but in reverse from the normal stat/task check- it's rolling SOC or higher with Streetwise added in and DL modifying.
3) SOC is the primary modifying stat for reaction rolls in a social setting.
On a reaction roll, check the difference between the characters' SOC.
If the same, +3.
If the difference is 1, +2.
If the difference is 2, +1 mod.
If the difference is 3, 0 mod.
If the difference is 4, -1 mod, etc. etc.
Each level of Liaison and/or Steward adds +1 to the reaction roll.
In general, the attack factor should not be taken literally except in a frontier/bar/urban hell type setting, the attack should come as a verbal attack. Which may turn into a fight/duel/vendetta, depending.
There are two exceptions to the above.
* If a natural 2 or 12 is rolled, the SOC modifier is completely ignored- kindred spirits or despised personalities have come to the fore, ignoring class behavioral issues due to a strong deep reaction.
* Corporations, businesses, crews, military forces, none could operate if people with critical skill sets cannot get along due to SOC issues, so in a professional setting people tend to use their professional persona.
For that purpose, everyone who is 'being professional' is treated as SOC 8, no positive or negative mods between each other, Liaison and/or Steward +1 per skill level.
If one character is acting professionally and the other retains their 'natural' social reaction persona, the professional is treated as being at 8 and the social at their level, mods and Liaison apply.
Referees may exact different rolls for 'maintaining professionalism' in the face of provocation or excessive length of time 'on the job'.
Note that at upper levels of the military, government and corporations, one is expected to perform at social events, as 'an officer and a gentlemen' or as a gracious business/community leader, and drinking, long party hours or peer pressure may cause a character to drop out of their professional persona, with possibly positive or negative effects.
This one is very underutilized IMO in most TUs, besides the 'do I get a yacht' question and the matter of nobility privilege, and was the stat that got me thinking about the whole use of stats and how they are largely neutered in favor of skills.
I don't have a 1000 star empire with the emperor and 'loyal' vassals as organizing principle, just the opening phase of Earth's exploration and expansion. So I do not have nobles in the classic OTU sense.
Went through thinking about all manner of human history, cultures etc. and decided that this is a valid character differentiation. EVERY society, from ancient to modern democracy/communist/fascist setup, has stratas of people that are 'in' and 'in power', and those that are not.
Also, being human, the power elite AND the common citizen are IMO more comfortable dealing with people 'at their level' across cultures and nations moreso then 'their own kind' at a different social level. There is a behavioral element to one's 'place in society'.
Americans especially like to think that we are all one great big fluffy meritocracy hence ignoring this stat, but even so there is strata based on wealth if nothing else, with behaviors that apply.
I have read some Mongoose Traveller on 'keeping up' re: social events and what sort of neighborhood you live in at what price, and I like that. I think IMTU the stat is actually something tracked to include demographics, a valuation of the neighborhood the player lives in, credit rating/societal reputation, attitudes, honor, and associated behaviors.
So, I am amping up the use of SOC in three ways.
1) SOC can go up or down by player action in game. In particular scandals, conviction in crime, failing to meet financial obligations, or lack of activity within X community can drop the stat, increased wealth, moving into the right clubs/social circles, achievements and reputation can increase it. SOC can change more readily then the other stats.
Players will want to manage it carefully, if for the 'credit rating' aspects if nothing else, and can be a major RP element to increase or prevent dropping.
2) SOC is the base stat for Fiscal Checks.
For loans/investments, it would be a task check with appropriate skills such as Trader, Admin, etc. but basically who you know and what reputation you have, and how much you can expect to raise/be granted. Difficulty Level would be set by the referee by a number of factors in play, particularly how much the amount sought is divided by the character's income, under how much a cloud the character is under with LE or society in general, etc.
The flip side for the underclass is utilizing the power of The Street to work around society's conventions and resource allocation structure to get things done outside the rules set by the power elite. So Social Standing is the primary stat for Streetwise checks, but in reverse from the normal stat/task check- it's rolling SOC or higher with Streetwise added in and DL modifying.
3) SOC is the primary modifying stat for reaction rolls in a social setting.
On a reaction roll, check the difference between the characters' SOC.
If the same, +3.
If the difference is 1, +2.
If the difference is 2, +1 mod.
If the difference is 3, 0 mod.
If the difference is 4, -1 mod, etc. etc.
Each level of Liaison and/or Steward adds +1 to the reaction roll.
In general, the attack factor should not be taken literally except in a frontier/bar/urban hell type setting, the attack should come as a verbal attack. Which may turn into a fight/duel/vendetta, depending.
There are two exceptions to the above.
* If a natural 2 or 12 is rolled, the SOC modifier is completely ignored- kindred spirits or despised personalities have come to the fore, ignoring class behavioral issues due to a strong deep reaction.
* Corporations, businesses, crews, military forces, none could operate if people with critical skill sets cannot get along due to SOC issues, so in a professional setting people tend to use their professional persona.
For that purpose, everyone who is 'being professional' is treated as SOC 8, no positive or negative mods between each other, Liaison and/or Steward +1 per skill level.
If one character is acting professionally and the other retains their 'natural' social reaction persona, the professional is treated as being at 8 and the social at their level, mods and Liaison apply.
Referees may exact different rolls for 'maintaining professionalism' in the face of provocation or excessive length of time 'on the job'.
Note that at upper levels of the military, government and corporations, one is expected to perform at social events, as 'an officer and a gentlemen' or as a gracious business/community leader, and drinking, long party hours or peer pressure may cause a character to drop out of their professional persona, with possibly positive or negative effects.
that's the intent. it's not a misuse.
social standing as popularity/credit rating?
where ss is below nobility, this might work. but in the nobility range (assuming ss and nobility are linked at all) it is the superiors, not popular opinion, that determine standing. the plebes/serfs/peasants have no say.
Some suggestions:
With some caps. Some examples:
If the difference is negative (you have higher SOC), the relevant skill might well be Streetwise...
When dealing with Imeperial High Society (nobles, megacorps, etc), your former Rank (if from Imperial service) may modify your SOC (a former General deserves some respect), as may other awards (e.g. having received a SEH).
With some caps. Some examples:
- Among Imperials, ou cannot raise your SOC over A unless ennobled (knighted, etc). No matter how wealthy or popular you are, you are noble or commoner. Ofcourse, this means that any SOC increase over A during Chargen means ennobling the Character (assume honor noble)
- Among the Zhodani, no one can raise his SOC over 9 unless it is raised to Intendent (and that's quite a rare occurence, unless something raises his PSI, as I understand them.
If the difference is negative (you have higher SOC), the relevant skill might well be Streetwise...
When dealing with Imeperial High Society (nobles, megacorps, etc), your former Rank (if from Imperial service) may modify your SOC (a former General deserves some respect), as may other awards (e.g. having received a SEH).
Gray Lensman
SOC-13
my two millicreds
I always converted it to a Charisma Attribute. Your ability to present a positive appearance/respect/diplomacy ect. when dealing with others increasing your chances of success.
The Corporate World/Military will take most anyone and your chances at better positions/promotions/raises ect. depend on the above.
Of course, YMMV.
I always converted it to a Charisma Attribute. Your ability to present a positive appearance/respect/diplomacy ect. when dealing with others increasing your chances of success.
The Corporate World/Military will take most anyone and your chances at better positions/promotions/raises ect. depend on the above.
Of course, YMMV.
Doesn't appear to be a thing in the OTU; if anything, the CG makes the vast majority of officers mustangs...
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
You probably could buy a naval or army commission from a planetary or subsector military.
This could range from a Kentucky Colonel to commanding an actual combat unit.
This could range from a Kentucky Colonel to commanding an actual combat unit.
