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Solomani and Imperial + Other Q's 4 U all?

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
There are nations in the Confederation that are as 'feudal' as the Imperium supposedly is and whose rulers are hereditary nobles. Those rulers then hold positions of power in the Confederation at large. You can bet your last thaler that the new king has at least as much political pull on the Confederation level as the old king. If that isn't hereditary, what is?
There are some member states of the Confederation for which this is the case. There are others which are radically democratic and others which are corporate dictatorships etc.
All this is important on the local level, and thus of course carries weight on the Confederation level, but there is no standard of nobility. There are representatives from each member-state, which may be, according to the structure of those, nobles, but there is no recognized nobility on the interstellar level.
It is more akin to the UN than to any single nation-state today. Representatives are selected by local governments as they see fit, be they democracies, aristocracies or monarchies.

You can very easily be a hereditary count and a Solomani party boss at teh same time.
Yes, but you don't have to, and neither is there any strong evidence that feudal or otherwise hereditary structures are prevalent.

As for elections, there are elections and then there are elections. North Korea holds elections, are they in any real way like the elections held in Germany? Other than the label that is. Don't be confused by labels.
I would actually, if I had to compare them to something, compare the intra-party elections to those in China or the later Soviet Union. Or you could even take a party in a democratic country as an analogy, for the sake of that ignoring its role in a larger system.

Your comment regarding the linking property with political standing is incorrect too. There are no official links between property and political standing in the US or Germany, but the unofficial link between the two is apparent to all but the most willfully ignorant.
That is a totally different thing than the property (in this case equalling land) of nobles. Furthermore, don't go assuming that what holds true for the US is equally true for other countries. Most members of the German parliament are not millionaires (though entering parliament confers a certain wealth in itself) and definitely don't generally come from rich families.
Ex-Chancellor Schröder was born into poverty, started out as a worker and a shop clerk, and clawed his way to higher education and eventual political career. Chancellor Merkel is the daughter of a middle-class pastor. Ex-Chancellor Kohl grew up as the son of a low-tier civil servant etc.

Examine the elected representatives in Germany's levels of government and you'll find the same dynamic at work as in the US;
I doubt it. It's immaterial to the Traveller discussion, but in the German parliaments you will generally find teachers, professors, lawyers and civil servants.
I actually have no idea about the situation in the US, but here, the "dynastic" factor simply isn't there. Maybe that has something to do with the German political system being radically shaken up several times in the last 200 years, while the US political system developed and matured quite continously. Maybe it is also important that the SPD was such a steady factor in German politics.

As for party standing, my comments on elections holds true here also. There are party members and then there are party members. Because every Solomani becomes a party member at birth, the party member label is diluted to the point of irrelevence. Being a member and acting as a member are two utterly different things, as CT's 'party standing' code in the Solomani UPP points out.
Oh, that's absolutely true. But that doesn't make them a nobility in any way I would define the term. There is no link of (landed) property and power, there is no hereditary system of power in place, there is no distinction by blood to 'commoners'. It can be called an oligarchy, a party bureaucracy etc.
Suitable analogies would rather be the Chinese systems, both modern and pre-modern, or the Soviet system, as mentioned above.
Of course analogies only go so far. Compared to those, the Solomani are a lot more heterogenous and have much stronger federal elements.

Was the turnout in Germany's last election; the one that put the ex-East German 'communist'(1) scientist in the chancellor's seat, anywhere near 50%?
A lot higher, of course, at 78 percent. :confused:
50 percent would be seen as some kind of catastrophe of the system, I guess. Even the 78 percent are an all-time low.

1 - Your new chancellor is a perfect example of my 'there are party members and then there are party members' comment. Sure, as an Osti and an educated, successful adult she was a communist.
No... she wasn't. Frankly, you seem to have a somewhat simplified picture of her biography and of the GDR political system. Their system of dealing with dissenting political views was not based on forcing them into the SED, but to allow "independent" parties, which were kept irrelevant by election manipulation.
This is not relevant to Merkel, as she only became actively involved with politics in 1989. As the daughter of a clergyman and as a christian, she was of course deemed politically unreliable before. She was an active member of the FDJ, the youth organization of the GDR, but she was mistrusted for her dissenting views. She was thus neither total conformist nor rebel.
In comparison to the Solomani situation: Party membership was not universal, nor of course was it coupled to "racial" attributes. There was a lot less diversity on the governmental level.

The Solomani party is both more and less than the political organizations in contemporary one-party-states are. But it is not a system of nobility.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Tobias,

My remarks concerning Merkel came from a news story about her on PBS' The News Hour with Jim Lehrer and were filtered through my memory. I do remember The News Hour stating she had belonged to a communist youth organization; which she did, and that voter turnout was an all time low; which I 'guess-timated' to be around 50%.

Do active and powerful Solomani Party members - remember not all party members are active, you're enrolled at birth no matter what - do active and powerful Solomani Party members behave like a nobility? You can bet your last dollar they do.

Do they have all the trappings of nobility? No, not automatically, but they have most and work for the approximate equivalent of the others.

Do they meet a dictionary definition of a system of nobility? No, but they meet the functional definition of one. I prefer to examine actions, not words. Words, and labels, lie while actions rarely do so.

The Party is in control of the Confederation in much the same manner that the nobilty control the Imperium. Just as high noble rank is required for high military, government, and business rankings in the Imperium, a high standing in the Party is always required in order to have a high standing in the military, government above the system level, and interstellar business within the Confederation. Unless you are 'politically safe', or powerful friends who are the same, you will not amount to much beyond your home system. Party standing is a measure of that 'political safety' rating.

Is this system labeled as a 'system nobility'? No, but it sure as hell acts and smells like a system of nobility. Look beyond the narrow textbook definitions and see how things really work. Then come up with label that has actual meaning.

On the interstellar level, the Solomani Party works akin to a system of nobility. Period.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Do they meet a dictionary definition of a system of nobility? No, but they meet the functional definition of one. I prefer to examine actions, not words. Words, and labels, lie while actions rarely do so.
I cannot see a definition classifying them as nobility which would not classify basically all political elites as a nobility. If you do so, okay, but I consider that to be much too broad and unhistorical a definition. And yes, I know we are not talking about history, but why use a historically defined term as nobility when there is no particular parallel?

Is this system labeled as a 'system nobility'? No, but it sure as hell acts and smells like a system of nobility. Look beyond the narrow textbook definitions and see how things really work. Then come up with label that has actual meaning.
Single-party-state? There are a lot more parallels to those than to any nobility.

On the interstellar level, the Solomani Party works akin to a system of nobility.
Sure, if you apply just one function, namely that of political Elite.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Which is why I pointed you in the direction of the Crucible Campaign. He several interesting propositions that work, even if we don't have a Virus to level things out or Empress Wave.
Read it now. To repeat: Unspecified "internal troubles" would have been even less believable than the Diabolus-ex-machina Empress Wave.
The CC essentially embodies what I said before. The ZC, a state having been described as rock-solid stable for thousands of years in all previous material, not only collapses just out of the blue, but does so at the exact same time the Imperium also collapses.
There is a reason Dave Nilsen employed the plot device of the Empress Wave, namely because he couldn't sell such nonsense without at least some explanation. But I guess, nowadays, with movies such as "Flight Plan" being credited with an "airtight plot" and "implacable logic", we're expected to have the crassest violations of common sense crammed down our throats and be happy with it.

Regards,

Tobias
 
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