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Some Basic Notes on the Development

Saying that an object is shielded by gravity (whether by a physical barrier, energetic barrier, or by emission of anti-gravitons, or whatever) is not synonymous with saying that it has zero mass.

It might have its mass removed from interaction with gravity by some field or barrier, but that doesn't meant that its mass no longer calculates into inertia and kinetic energy equations.

It might be defying gravity by emission of antigravitons which cancel the gravitons being emitted by nearby objects. This says nothing about its effective mass for things like kinetic energy and inertia.

Let me give one example of a real world attempt at antigravity: Mach's principle. There's a guy (Woodward?) who is trying to use Mach's principle to create reactionless thrust. It works by using an electric field to manipulate the mass of a system so that its effective mass is a negative value, and then oscilating two such devices which are themselves varying between positive and negative masses. You end up with a pulsating device that produces a net thrust in one direction, but without ejecting reaction mass (at least, not conventional reaction mass ... at a quantum mechanical level you might _have_ to consider it ejecting (anti-)gravitons or something). There's no indication in his experiments that the device's negative mass (or even artificially reduced mass) has less inertia or kinetic energy than the base device ... in terms of those things, (from what I've been reading) its mass is what you'd expect. It's only in terms of how the device interacts with gravity that its effective mass is changing.

Further, even if the device, when canistered into an engine, ends up having less inertia when operating than it did while turned off, there's still the inertia of the entire rest of the vehicle (the "tank" part). The entire vehicle doesn't have a net zero mass. Instead, the engine is generating an upward force which balances against the downward force of gravity. The rest of the vehicle is still a positive mass with normal inertia and kinetic energy.


Unless the Traveller setting specifies which is the actual technique, you can't conclude that a grav-tank automatically has zero-mass (or incredibly small mass) for inertia and energy (and therefore for colissions) considerations.


(note: I'm not claiming woodward's work will pan out, I'm more pointing out that just because something is overcoming gravity doesn't mean it reduces its inertia and kinetic energy, nor does it mean anything in terms of the rest of the vehicle's inertia even if the engine's mass is doing wonky things)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Shoveller:
Bob, an anti-grav field works by negating the effect of gravity on an object.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhmm, Traveller antigrav works by pushing against the local gravity well. Thats why it doesn't work when you are out of a gravity well. Antigrav in Traveller is just another form of thrust.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Shoveller:
I think it's you who need to double check their masses. How does anti-grav work? It temporarily reduces the mass of an object in an anti-grav field. How do you make a big object float? You wrap it in a field that will reduce it's mass to nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're confusing weight with mass. Weight equals mass time gravity. An object with a mass of 1000 Kilogram in a 1G gravity field weights 1000 Kilonewtons. In a 0G field it does weight 0 Kn, but it still has 1000 Kg mass and inertia is determined by mass not weight. Your 50 cal bullet still has to work against those 1000 Kg.
 
You guys are attempting to use meaningless calculations to make bogus arguments look meaningful.

This is real simple.

If a field is generated eliminates one effect of an object's mass [weight] upon it's surrounding environment, it eliminates all of the effects of it's mass upon the surrounding environment. You can't just eliminate one physical property and have all the other remain the same. It's absolutely impossible. When one property changes, all properties change propotionately.

By the way, gravity is pretty much been acknowledged to be just another form of electromagnetic energy by the theoretical physics community. An anti-grav field would block gravity waves, not just from one object, but from ALL objects.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
Uhmm, Traveller antigrav works by pushing against the local gravity well. Thats why it doesn't work when you are out of a gravity well. Antigrav in Traveller is just another form of thrust.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on edition, there are several forms of gravitic technology.

Small vehicles in CT/MT use the local gravity well as the reaction mass (implied by needing a gravity well to operate). Ships use a more woodwardian drive which works in N-space. According to Imperium, this can result in being able to make high sub-C speeds.

TNE has "Contrarav", which is a mass-gravity decouple with only 99% efficiency. Some form of thrust mechanism was needed to float.(Unless the effective mass for gravity was less that the mass of the environment displaced; implied but not explicit in FF&S.) TNE has no gravitic thrusters.

T4: has Contragrav, plus gravitic thrusters (IE, both TNE and CT/MT modes), but drops the deep nspace capability, and limits the T-plates (as the drives were called) to in-system, and they push against the solar gravity well.


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-aramis
========================================
Smith & Wesson:
The Original Point and Click interface!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Shoveller:
Bob, show me one place where I said "inertialess" in a post. Those are words you conjured out of thin air.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
True. You said massless. Mass has two functions, gravity and inertia. You were denying inate inertia when you said "massless."
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
An object can't have the properties of both having huge mass and not having any mass at the same time. If an object becomes weightless, it takes on all the other characteristics of the loss of mass as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Time for a physics lesson. Weight is the force that results from the interaction of the gravity fields of two masses. Mass has two properties inertia and a gravity field. Inertia is the property that resists any force (old uncle Isaac's Three Laws). Gravity is a field that radiates out from any mass, and when two gravity fields overlap, they pull together like (weak) magnets.

How grav drive works is not clear, but it either prevents the vehicles mass from interacting with the planetary gravity field or (more reasonably) creates an artificial gravity field (without the associated inertia) equal and opposite to the gravity field created by the mass of the vehicle.

Either way grav drive does nothing to inertia, so it does not bounce around like a toy baloon.


[This message has been edited by Uncle Bob (edited 15 May 2001).]
 
I agree that it's simple.

There is _no_ indication that a body emitting contra-gravitons will reduce its mass (since gravitons are expected to be massless, I am assuming contra-gravitons would be as well). Gravitons interact with mass, they don't define it. There is no indication that a body that is not interacting with gravitons (for whatever reason, I'm assuming because contra-gravitons are countering the effect of the gravitons) would behave (in terms of colissions, inertia, and kinetic energy) in any way other than a body that is interacting with gravitons.



An X ton tank generating contra-gravitons is still as massive as an X ton tank, it's just not getting pulled toward the nearest gravity well.
 
It's this simple. You guys are wrong.

A field of energy that managed to cancel one effect of an objects mass would cancel the other effects of that objects mass with respect to the other objects in the environment. A .50 caliber round would strike an object in a anti-grav field and cause it to react as though it had little mass. When the graviton interaction was blocked by the field, the forces that tie the object in the field into it's place in the environment are reduced as well.

You can't reduce one effect of an object's mass without reducing the other effects as well.
 
You guys wanna keep hashing this out, take it to it's own topic please. It's dominating this thread and has gotten WAY off topic

Hunter
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
AFAIK they still use the MUD interface (last time I was there was for Loren's last chat, Feb I think).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If thats the only way, I'm game. I'll just need to figure out the interface

Hunter
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
Oops We'se gone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can keep it going, that I don't mind, just open a new thread on the subject. Leaves this one open for direct discussions of the original post

Ooops! I see you did open a new topic already. Thanks!

Hunter


[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 15 May 2001).]
 
Bob: "Time for a physics lesson... it either prevents the vehicles mass from interacting with the planetary gravity field or (more reasonably) creates an artificial gravity field (without the associated inertia) equal and opposite to the gravity field created by the mass of the vehicle.

If the anti grav field prevents the mass of the vehicle from interacting with other plantets/objects, the field causes an effect that replicates the loss of mass with respect to other objects in the environment. There is no actual loss of mass, but the field causes an effect that mass is reduced in respect to it's relationships with other objects in the environment. If the vehicle's mass can't interact with other objects, then that vehicle's mass isn't interacting the environment. If the mass isn't interacting with the environment, the mass cannot prevent the fabled .50 cal round from knocking it around the battlefield. If the mass isn't interact one object [planet], the mass isn't interacting other objects in the environment either [bullet].

If it's an artificial gravity field, then the mass of the object inside the field is suspended by the field's power. The energy spent powering the field nullifies the mass with respect to the the environment outside the field. Again, this field would cause objects outside the field to treat an object within the field as if it had little mass. Again, no real loss of mass, but the machinations of the field would cause the vehicle to behave as if it had little mass. Objects outside the field would proceed to play pinball with this vehicle.
 
this debate about experience points and whether you learn from success or failure seems rather pointless to me. This is a GAME. It cannot perfectly simulate real life and well it should not or it would be too complex to play! Experience points, level advancement, increased skill points, etc. are part of the reward system in the game. They are not meant to reflect reality; they are meant to make players happy by seeing their characters get better. An RPG must be playable or it will not get played. CT was playable (still is, flaws and all) and that's why people like it. T20 will be playable. Experience points, like many things in RPG's, are an abstraction. I frankly intensely dislike training rules; they take away from time playing the game!

Allen
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by me

When you say "Almost pure High Guard" what do you mean by almost? Do you mean HG reformatted, HG with some of the problems removed or a system based on HG but not really compatable?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have given this a little more thought and I can see three possible solutions for Starship design/combat.

1) Use HG as originally published.
This would require very little work, because you know the system works. Just convert the combat tables to D20's and a task system and your finished.
Keeping the system the same would mean existing users of HG and new D20 players could swap designs freely. The change to D20 and tasks would effect ship combat but not design so existing players can carry on using the old 2D6 combat if they like.

2) Use HG but incorporate some of the fixes/house rules created over the years.
Several changes have been adopted by many HG players over the years, if some careful work is done HG could be improved without invalidating existing designs. As long as existing HG users are willing to adopt this new version you could end up with a better system than HG but retain the compatability between CT and D20.

3) Construct a new system based on HG.
The original HG was aimed at fighting battles between warships not small skirmishes between a trading vessel and a pirate. HG makes no use of crew skills and has a very simple movement system that may prove too restrictive for new D20 system.
Ship design, whilst not as complex as later traveller editions, is perhaps a little too complex for the intended use in the D20 system.
Making more major changes to HG would require more work in design and playtesting. But, if done, it could result in a better system. Unfortunately this would result in incompatible designs between the two systems and existing players would be split into two groups, those that use the new system and those that don't.

Just some thoughts

J.
 
(snip)

The question I see with much of this whole thread is simple enough - is _Striker_ going to be reused for non-space vehicles or not?

If it is, problem solved. If it isn't HG can't handle ground vehicles (the Intrepida/Trepida has come up in this thread forex.) D20 + CT is an interesting mix that has much to offer the modern RPG market. However, there were very real limitations back in the early days that lead to products like Striker in the first place. We would be doing a misservice to the new users this version is intended to draw if it fails to learn from those earlier mistakes.

Just my .02 ImpCR worth.


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--
You better watch out What you wish for;
It better be worth it So much to die for.
Courtney Love
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AllenS:
. . .It cannot perfectly simulate real life and well it should not or it would be too complex to play! Experience points, level advancement, increased skill points, etc. are part of the reward system in the game. They are not meant to reflect reality; they are meant to make players happy by seeing their characters get better.Allen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is the basic difference in philosophy. In CT you were not rewarded for play, at least not in that abstract a way. Your character grew as a person, became wealthy, got power and influence, etc, as a result of game play. While these elements can often be important in an well run XP game, they can also be lost in the pursuit of levels and game-power. ("Munchkins" do not have to be combat monsters. There was a hole in the 1st edition Chivalry & Sorcery Magic rules that allowed a certain character to go up a level by diligent practice everytime the party took two weeks off to heal.)


Traveller was the first RPG where storytelling took precedence over collecting abstract experience points. There were three things that made CT unique:
A storytelling style (i.e., there was no attempt to keep score or access victory, but the referee and player moved the sory along)
A simple, well organized rules set (not comprehensive, but comprehendable)
A sincere attempt to be realistic ("Hard SF" with a minimum of technobabble, lethal combat, and three dimensional characters with shades of gray).

And what was the problem with training? You talked the party into giving you a few months then every player who wants to rolls for an instructor, then roll for success. Five minutes play time, tops.
 
It's two sides of a coin. In CT, you only improved through training, never through experience. Well to take your own point from earlier, you say that people learn more from mistakes than through success. Thus how can training be more effective than actual field experience. That's like saying a well trained soldier of 15 years non-combat experience is as good a battlefield soldier as one that has had actual combat experience. Granted there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule, but as an ex-paratrooper myself, I would much prefer to share a fox-hole with a combat veteran of 15 years than a non-combat veteran of 15 years.

In non-military life, I think I would prefer a surgeon with 15 years of experience at the operating table to a young surgeon fresh out of his residency.

In CT, there was no reward for in-field or on the job experience, only through training. It shouldn't take me 5 months of training to benefit from the previous X months of field experience.

In this respect, T20 should be able to do better by offering experience through both training AND in-field experience points awards.

Hunter


[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 18 May 2001).]
 
As to storytelling and role-playing vs. muchkinism...Personally who cares? I won't be playing in munchkin games T20 or not, and somehow I doubt you would either. It's a personal preference of play style.

I would hasten to say you would probably not like the type of game we play in Traveller as it falls more to the heroic style than it sounds like you play. That's not a bad thing, it's a preference. Your way is equally is valid, as is a munchkin style game. It's about having a good time.

How someone else plays Traveller in 'Their Traveller Universe' has no impact on how you play Traveller in any way, shape, or form does it really?

The point of T20 is to introduce people who are familiar with the D20 system to the Traveller universe. Traveller is not CT, MT, TNE, T4, GT, T5, or T20. Those are all rules systems. Traveller has survived them all because it is something beyond the rules. It is a vast, well-developed universe full of intrigue and adventure adaptable to just about any style of play.

Hunter



[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 18 May 2001).]
 
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