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Some Basic Notes on the Development

From the Technology Charts in Mega Traveller for those who think Traveller is lacking in areas of technology...

Biotech
TL 9 Limb Regeneration
TL 10 Growth Quickening
TL 11 Nerve Refusion
TL 12 Broad Anti-Toxins
TL 13 Cloned Body Parts
Reanimation
TL 14 Genetic Engineering
Memory Erasure

Cybertech
TL 11 Artificial Eyes
TL 12 Enhanced Prosthetics
TL 14 Brain Implants
TL 15 Pseudo-biological Prosthetics
Pseudo-reality
TL 16 Artificial Intelligence
Neural Weapons and Shields

Hunter
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
If I can make one plea, *please* *please* *please* drop the old freight cost scheme of Cr1000/ton per jump regardless of distance. If there is one single thing that is wrong with Traveller, this has to be it. It requires not suspension of disbelieve but physically throwing it from a very very high place
smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow if you feel THAT strongly about it then....NO! ;P

Seriously though, that one is kind of a head scratcher and probably *should* be changed I agree.

Hunter


[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 01 June 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
If I can make one plea, *please* *please* *please* drop the old freight cost scheme of Cr1000/ton per jump regardless of distance. If there is one single thing that is wrong with Traveller, this has to be it. It requires not suspension of disbelieve but physically throwing it from a very very high place
smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I quite agree. I've been looking at this lately and the easiest solution I can come up with is to charge Cr1,000/ton/pc. Not perfect by any means, but it at least makes J2+ ships economically viable as long as they jump their max range.
I worked through some figures yesterday using a Type A2 designed using HG,assuming two J2s per month, a full load of passengers and cargo, and only three crew. Under the standard rules it makes a loss of about Cr90,000 per month. By using the above rule this changes to a profit of Cr20,000 per month.
The obvious question is why would a bank lend anyone money to purchase a ship that can never make a profit, even with a full load? You can't use speculative trading as an argument 'cause how many banks would lend money for that?

Paul Bendall
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
Wow if you feel THAT strongly about it then....NO! ;P

Seriously though, that one is kind of a head scratcher and probably *should* be changed I agree.

Hunter
[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 01 June 2001).]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Under the current rules, a J2 merchant gets cargo to the destination twice as fast and only charges half the price. Any wonder they're not economic
smile.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Takei:
I quite agree. I've been looking at this lately and the easiest solution I can come up with is to charge Cr1,000/ton/pc. Not perfect by any means, but it at least makes J2+ ships economically viable as long as they jump their max range.
Paul Bendall
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to be strictly realistic the J2 ship should charge twice that of the J1 *plus* a margin to reflect the faster delivery. You could use (Cr1000 * (0.9 + Jump/10)) per ton-parsec. This means J1 charge Cr1000/ton-parsec, J2 charges Cr1100/ton-parsec, J3 charges Cr1200/ton-parsec etc. However that might be an undesirable level of complexity.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
Wow if you feel THAT strongly about it then....NO! ;P

Seriously though, that one is kind of a head scratcher and probably *should* be changed I agree.

Hunter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always looked at the "Cr per Jump" as some form of imperial price fixing. Additionally, it would encourage lower jump ships far more strongly. If you do fix it, keep in mind that at Cr2000 per month assumed local Cr Income, jump travel under CT was a once a decade luxury for the middle classes. Thus CT's finaces made travel more of a goods thing than a people thing. This is GOOD for roleplaying: It means that your PC's are actually likely to encounter recurrant travelling NPC's they know by means not contrived very strongly.

Please, if you fix the costs to Cr/Jump, make them commensurate... Joe average Working stiff shouldn't be able to get away other than by popsicle passage (Low Berth) more than once a decade; anything else gets into enough people that multiple major liners should be calling weekly on most pop 6+ worlds.

Also, if you fix the pricing, include average upkeep costs, and average salaries information. (The latter is the hard one; the only salaries we know canonically are space-crews on commercial small merchants. The Cr2000 is based upon MT's Cr250 * Soc upkeep; this provides Cr250 above upkeep, aka Cr250 for capital goods and intangibles. Also note that it was mentioned somewhere for MT that Space Travel counts as sufficient for upkeep costs, even for crewmen.
wink.gif
)

Note also re GT-FT ... due to differences in pricing, I can't easily use the GT-FT rules for passage costs (and monthly disposable incomes under GT are much higher than in comparison to MT based upon the extrapolations above)... they are not in CrImp compatable with MT CrImp. (Joe Average under GT is Cr 500/mo upkeep; his income will be about Cr1000/mo based upn the GT Jobs Table). Under GT + GT-FT, street entertainers of skill 12+ can afford an off world vacation every year!

This is a warning to the design team: The grognards WILL test to destruction your ecomonic assumptions.

Personally, I feel that unless MWM specifically accepts the figures in T20 for T5, the "OTU Figures" should be there, at least in a sidebar. Go ahead, put realistic numbers in... just LET the players know they ARE different.

------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
Also, if you fix the pricing, include average upkeep costs, and average salaries information.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Money is one thing that ties the whole traveller system together. If you change one bit of the system, such as the trading rules you need to make sure it balances with the other sections of the game.

In terms of starship running costs the formula should work out something like:

income = running costs + salaries + mortgage + profit

For a traveller game you need the profit to be balanced so that running a starship can be profitable, but not hugely profitable (IMHO).

So if you start changing the trading system you need to double check that the profit levels remain about the same.

To make matters worse changing the starship design system alters several different parts of the equation. Changing the ship design sequence from Book 2 to High Guard and you will increase the cost of ships which increases the mortgage, change the number of engineering crew changing the salary and change the amount of cargo space changing the income.

This isn't really too much of a problem as long as the system is tested properly, the mortgage and running costs can always be changed to keep the profit figures at a reasonable level.

J.
 
I have to admit that our group has never been happy playing "merchants and miners" style traveller. If I want to worry about buying gas and paying the mortgage, I'll play real life. We usually go with a sponsored group (can you say IIB agents) or with a source of wealth built in (my daddy, the duke of Fresia, pays me to stay as far from his sector as possible.) Understand this is not criticism of the merchant style, its just not my thing. One of the great aspects of traveller is that there are rules for both of our groups to play campaigns we enjoy. I also have some interest in the trade rules (since my degree happens to be in economics), its just not what I like to play, but its there as a reference, say our group needs to find out where a quick buck can be made dumping an illicit cargo, the GM looks up the needed info and viola.
 
Classes are un-necessary.

I have never liked classes, they are categorical, limit player creativity, and often times have rather illogical restrictions (oh you can't use a shield, or oh your class can't use that piece of technology)

The fact that CT was NOT class based is the beauty of it. The infinite possibilities for unique characters with skill based character development over time is extremely liberating.

Especially in a world where we are already plagued with crap games with such powerleveling motivators as hit points, levels, and magic items.

Just my opinion.
 
I don't think you're very familiar with d20 classes, then.


1) d20 _is_ skill based. Each class has skills they pay 1 pt per rank for ("class skills"), skills they pay 2 pts per rank for ("cross-class skills"), and then there are a few skills that are only open to specific classes (restricted skills), but you don't have to have those in any particular d20 game.

2) you can think of each class as a basic archetype ... similar to super hero games where you have "Brick", "Energy Projector", "Martial Artist", and "Mentalist". From there, d20 allows you to just about freely mix archetypes together. For example, I have an elf who is a monk-druid, implimenting a sort of loosely taoist mystic chinese martial artist (druid for nature magic, monk for martial arts). He alternates levels in monk vs druid.

(note: his being an elf is incidental: in d20, everyone can multi-class, and multi-classing is done by picking what class you want your current level to be chosen from, as opposed to tracking N different XP pools, one for each class; you have 1 XP pool and that determins your Character Level, which is equal to the sum of your levels in each individual class. There is also a concept of "half levels" for starting out as a 1st level multi-classed character.)

In 3D&D there's a restriction that you have to keep your levels mostly close (so my levels in Druid and Monk have to be within 2 of eachother), otherwise you take an experience point penalty (it also keeps you from tacking on random classes over time, becuase then you'd have to keep advancing all of them at the same pace, slowing down your development). But, in Star Wars, there is no such restriction: you can multiclass all over the place with out any reguard to keeping each classes levels in parity with another. I'd think T20 would go that route.

It is _VERY_ easy to compare d20 multiclassing to CT careers. You take two terms of enlistment in the Army, I take two levels of armsman. You take 1 term of college time, I take 1 level as an academic. It's essentially the same thing.


3) in addition to "skills", you can also customize your character with "feats", which are sort of special abilities that are discrete (you either have it or you don't), like ambidexterity, or rapid-shot, or someone who uses his sword more with dexterity than strength.


As for the comment about shields ... anyone can use a shield. Some classes can use one from the get-go because it's a feature of their class, but anyone can pick up the shield proficiency feat. Similarly, anyone can pick up a weapon feat for longsword. Fighters get that for free, but if a mage wanted to use a feat for it (instead of for some special magic based feat), they could. Though, arcane spell casters (wizards and sorcerers) do have a chance that their spells will fail if they cast while wearing certain types of armor (the chance varries with the armor type, generally the more protective the more likely the failure). But unlike early editions, they can still wear it and bennefit from it if they want to.


So, while AD&D1 was very restrictive about pigeonholing its character archetypes, 3D&D is very flexible and gives you a lot of room to mold your character around mixed archetypes (via multiclassing) and/or customize your character within given archetypes (via skills and feats).


Still sound too restrictive?
 
Where do you get the idea that CT didn't have classes? It clearly did--if you used the standard character generation system for CT, you used classes. What else do you think the service paths were?

A "class" is nothing more than a template that represents a standard experience path for the PC. It can reflect both backstory and future advancement, or one and not the other. I presume what you mean is that you disapprove of how AD&D classes traditionally functioned.

CT was far more restrictive of player creativity. Your background was randomly generated, not chosen. Your character could even DIE before ever getting played, which I never found very logical, myself. And there was no clear character upgrade path.

The D20 system allows you to create any kind of classes that are suited to the game system. The benefits and restrictions of the classes may be logical or illogical, balanced or unbalanced, suited to the game concept or unsuited, but that is a function of how well the game designer designs the classes. And I fail to see why people make so much gas over a "leveling" system--it is a simple game mechanic for providing a goal point at which certain advances in character development may take place, nothing more. Systems without "levels" tend to have far more problems with munchkin/power-gaming and poor attention to a consistent PC development path, because there is often no limitation on stacking points in one exclusive area to the detriment of others, creating imbalances. (An example is WEG Star Wars, where no matter what template everyone started with, the characters all started to look alike after a while, with high Dodge dice, etc.)

As for restrictions, you might as well complain that an Army character ought to be able to get Navigation as a skill, or at least shouldn't have the "restriction" of not being able to get it in his initial generation in CT, etc. CT, like most RPG game systems, does force you to make choices when you choose a template for your character. As a matter of fact, I can't imagine why any CT player would ever suggest that any system could be more restrictive of or less attentive to player character conceptions than old CT, given its original PC generation system.

More free-form roleplaying systems, like White Wolf, may not. If you don't like D20, fine, but at least be fair in your criticism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Myscha the sled dog:
Classes are un-necessary.

I have never liked classes, they are categorical, limit player creativity, and often times have rather illogical restrictions (oh you can't use a shield, or oh your class can't use that piece of technology)

The fact that CT was NOT class based is the beauty of it. The infinite possibilities for unique characters with skill based character development over time is extremely liberating.

Especially in a world where we are already plagued with crap games with such powerleveling motivators as hit points, levels, and magic items.

Just my opinion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
 
Hunter said:
"What was wrong with the old Psi rules?"

I would like to see a system vaguely similar to the Psionics handbook and to the Star wars RPG in that there is a Psionic Prestige Class which you can multiclass into if you are tested for and found to be psionic. it gives you access to Psionic Disciplines (the various powers from Traveller such as Telepathy), which are expressed as Feats. The individual abilities under those Feats are purchased as Skills (such as Mind Probe, etc.) A character has a certain supply of Psionic Points, and powers cost to use.

Failing that, Psionic could itself be a feat, with the other disciplines being sub-feats (much like Mobility is to Dodge in D&D). The feat requires you to be tested and found to be psionic, and the actual psionic strength is reduced by age, as it is in Traveller.

Allen
 
Not to mention that the old psi rules were a little primitive, which one would expect for a game that was one of the first to have them.

There have been lots of great psi systems that have come out since then. Feel free to beg, borrow or steal.
smile.gif
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JMBrooks:
Where do you get the idea that CT didn't have classes? It clearly did--if you used the standard character generation system for CT, you used classes. What else do you think the service paths were? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Service paths.

In CT it is quite possible to generate characters with identical skill sets from diferent careers. It is also quite possible to generate characters from the same career that have no skills in common except for the one or two auto skills.

In a class based system characters are diferentiated by the kinds of problem solving they employ, be that fighting, thieving, magic, computer hacking, creative accounting, or what have you.

In contrast the Traveller careers only broadly affect the kinds of problem solving techniques the charecter will employ and then only on average across a very large population of possible characters. The skills attained define what kind of character you play not the career itself.

David Shayne
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveShayne:
In contrast the Traveller careers only broadly affect the kinds of problem solving techniques the charecter will employ and then only on average across a very large population of possible characters. The skills attained define what kind of character you play not the career itself.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is how D20 works also. D20 is not AD&D. Classes are now pretty much a skeleton from which to flesh out a character with skills and feats. While each class has a given set of 'class skills', a character may choose to learn and develop skills outside of their 'class'. It just costs them more in skill points to develop.

Hunter
 
DavidShayne:

Have you read _anything_ that's been stated here about d20 classes?

You clearly know _NOTHING_ about d20 classes from what you just wrote. Your message makes claims about class based systems that only apply to games that are more than 10 years old (and even then, not all of them).


1) "In CT it is quite possible to generate characters with identical skill sets from diferent careers."

In d20, it's quite possible to generate characters with identical skill sets from different classes. It was also possible (trivial even) to do this in RoleMaster/SpaceMaster/MERP/Cyberspace ... a class based game from the 80's.


2) "It is also quite possible to generate characters from the same career that have no skills in common except for the one or two auto skills."

It is also quite possible to generate characters from the same d20 career that have no abilities and skills in common except for the one or two auto abilities/skills.

Ex: I can have 2 fighters whose only common traits are that they have the same attack bonus and saves. Different skills, different feats, etc.


3) "In contrast the Traveller careers only broadly affect the kinds of problem solving techniques the charecter will employ and then only on average across a very large population of possible characters."

I can make the same statement about classes in d20. Want a character who is part diplomat and part soldier? No problem ... have your soldier buy diplomacy skills, or have your diplomat use lots of feats on weapon and armor proficiencies, or take some of your levels in diplomat and some in soldier (just like taking some of your career repetitions in diplomat and some in solider).


Before you criticise something, you might want to know something about it. Ignorance is an ugly thing.
 
So is beligerance. And having read the d20 SRD, d20 Classes are NOT CT careers. BUT there is sufficient overlap in purpose between the two that it's probably not worth getting steamed up over.
smile.gif
(And I'm a CT lifer, not a d20 Fan!)
 
Well the point is kinda Moot (ok so I had to do it...) since T20 doesn't use the CT careers as classes anyway. Careers in T20 are the same as the are in CT, careers. You join, you earn experience and skills, you get out, you go adventuring.

Hunter
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
And this is how D20 works also. D20 is not AD&D. Classes are now pretty much a skeleton from which to flesh out a character with skills and feats. While each class has a given set of 'class skills', a character may choose to learn and develop skills outside of their 'class'. It just costs them more in skill points to develop.

Hunter

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I note that the classes you are proposing for T20 are not the careers of CT. This, to me at least, points up the differences between the two chargen models. In order for the D20 class model to work it does seem that you need to split chargen up along functional lines instead of along the lines of previous employer as in CT. Don't get me wrong. I'm not opposed to classes per se. You seem to be working along reasonable lines with them and they could very well work within the context of T20.

YMMV

Oh and while I have your attention. A couple of days ago somebody asked about the CT Ref screen you announced a few months ago. Are you still planing on producing this item or has it been shelved for lack of interest?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaveShayne:
Oh and while I have your attention. A couple of days ago somebody asked about the CT Ref screen you announced a few months ago. Are you still planing on producing this item or has it been shelved for lack of interest?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just posted a reply to that subject under that thread in the Bureaucracy.

Hunter
 
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