Some News From Mongoose
- Thread starter rust
- Start date
Cross your fingers...
Or is that: Start your engines?
Or is that: Start your engines?
Fire up your power plants and close the air locks.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
I rate it as "not as ugly as TNE but not as attractive as CT or The Traveller Book". I think that the CT-inspired layout in The Traveller Book was excellent. Attractive and readable.
As a one-time typesetter, I'm not impressed with using small caps and outline styles on a sans serif typeface. Small caps are most readable when used with an attractive serif typeface. As used in the MGT document, they are ugly and too large IMHO. Also, the tracking is too tight. It's probably just the default tracking on their page layout software, but the addition of the outline style runs the letters together. And italicizing them just makes them even more vulgar and offputting IMHO. My opinion is that a heading should not act like a neon sign on the page. And I've never cared for Eras; this reminds me why. At the very least, they should consider getting a true outline typeface and not relying on their page layout software to create it.
They also made some leading (vertical spacing) blunders with headings that take up two lines (example on last page, "Alternate Character Generation").
Kudos for not busying the page up with dingbats on the page borders ala T20 (sorry, Hunter) and some of TNE supplements. Those things quickly become distracting and also manage to look dated IMHO. (Of course, the all time award for crappy page design has to be D&D 3rd edition, with those asinine ruled lines on every page, combined with a font with a small x-height...ick.)
The body typeface (Scala Sans) is an attractive display font, but it seems to me a poor choice for reading large blocks of text. The typeface's light stroke weight, condensed width and sans serif militate against readability. (It looks better to me on the computer screen than printed out, probably because the computer screen makes the font heavier in appearance and because I can easily zoom in). I think that CT's font (Helvetica 55, looks to me like) would have been easier to read. I do like the old style numerals; they are more readable and look classier.
Overall, it's not among the worst looking page layouts I've seen, but it ain't nothing to write home about either. A C+ in my book. And since I bought layout disasters like D&D 3rd Edition and TNE, MGT's layout won't scare me off...
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DaddyDragon
SOC-12
I look forward to yet another Mongoose product with the usual, standard sub-standard, dyslexic llama editing effort.
Unfortunately, I'm a slave to Traveller (and based on the number of those poorly edited and defunct rules sets, a slave to Mongoose as well), so I will ultimately be picking it up. If for no other reason than to support the hobby and the line, in general.
My kids are getting to the age now where they spend their own money on games. So I'll suffer through for posterity.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Looks like they've ditched the worthless playtest initiative system. Good move there, although I'm curious as to how well the replacement system works. Since it can't possibly be worse than the original system, I expect it to be an improvement. I wonder why they didn't let playtest the current system?
Also gone are both playtest damage systems (which were abouts as flawed as I've ever seen). Weapons damage is now xdice, with modifiers in some cases.
I also note the example of custom weapon design, which sounds like the system MM will have in T5.
I wonder...did Mongoose ultimately abandon their own combat systems in favor of the T5 systems? Or are the new Mongoose combat systems different from the T5 systems?
shrug
It's hard not to feel vindicated...
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captainjack
SOC-13
Gee....perhaps they felt that the noise to helpfulness ration was waaaaaay to low on the boards there at that point ? I mean, when people are taking time to argue about what anime is, and what fonts imply it....
Plus, the deadlines. No doubt if they'd delayed to put it out there, there would be complaints about that too.
We did. We just did not send them to you - there has always been more than one playtest group for Traveller, and we usually have a blind test towards the end for a new system.
Ah, yes, now, let me explain your mistake here.
A playtest run, for us at least, is not an adversarial process. We release mechanics, we listen to feedback. Even when certain people have trouble expressing themselves without insulting others, we listen. That is the point of a playtest.
If the consensus is that something is not working, we change it. There are very few sacred cows for us in terms of actual mechanics (though there are over-riding factors guiding the writing), so if we need to change direction, we do it.
Now, if you feel 'vindicated', that seems to demonstrate that there was some sort of confrontation in your mind. For us, that was simply not the case. Personally speaking, I thought it was a shame you had to be shown the door, as you are clearly passionate about the game, and you obviously had things to say.
You could just not say them without getting people's backs up.
tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Then let me explain *your* mistake. You apparently mistake *intentions* for actual results.
Seems pretty clear to me that the public playtest -- whatever Mongoose's stated intentions -- became *highly* adversarial. Now, as it happens, I think this was largely the fault of the MGT design team for not responding to criticisms. Instead, they allowed advocates--often highly partisan advocates--to defend the system. And these advocates, quite frankly, didn't do a very good job. Since they weren't the designers, they can't really be faulted for this. They were forced to speculate about the designer's goals and rationales and this resulted in a very high bovine defecation ratio. In any case, many of the advocates got just as obnoxious and personal as any of the critics (and in my opinion did so more often and were allowed to get away with it more).
Nor did Mongoose's tendency to peremptorily lock threads (without any warning to the participants) do anything to help. How many threads were peremptorily locked out by Mongoose? A lot more than *I* participated in...
But regardless of where the blame lies, and regardless of your intentions or claims to the contrary, the public playtest *became* highly adversarial.
Hopefully, Mongoose will learn something from this. By allowing fans to carry most of the burden of publicly defending the system, Mongoose pretty much ensured that the debate would get acrimonious. (To paraphrase Kissinger, among others, such debates are invariably so bitter because the stakes are so low). Mongoose's lectures about civility seem especially dubious IMHO, when their comparative fault for the acrimony is considered.
(That said, I don't want to be misunderstood. Mongoose's fault is partial IMHO. Anyone who hurled insults at other posters certainly bears a share of the responsibility as well.)
And as someone who was a very pointed critic of the combat system (and by extension the badly flawed timing/effect system), I make no apologies for feeling that my criticisms were vindicated. I'm frankly relieved that Mongoose's management was astute enough to recognize that the original system was hopelessly compromised.
So...why did you not release the current combat system to the public playtesters? It would have embarrassed the defenders of the playtest combat system, but surely that wouldn't have stopped you.
As noted, the MGT forum *became* very confrontational, regardless of your intentions. I really don't think that this fact can be rationally disputed. In any case, congratulations for ditching some execrable mechanics. Personally, I think that identifying and avoiding dubious mechanics is far more important than coming up with good ones.
Appreciate the sentiment, but my posts in this thread had nothing to do with being banned. I freely recognize anyone's right to show a guest to the door. It is perhaps unfortunate that the rule was not applied equally (IMHO), but even there, I can see the value of making an example.
However you brought up a charge that keeps getting repeated -- that I insulted other posters. I have asked (repeatedly) for someone to produce a single quote in which I insulted another poster (except in self-defense). No one has been able to do so (and they won't be able to for the simple reason that as a matter of principle, I avoid throwing the first punch). So, I'll ask you to prove up your accusation as well or appropriately qualify it. EDIT--Bad phrasing on my part; you made no such "accusation". Ignore that statement, please.
Of course, I plead guilty to openly (and "remorselessly" as one fan said) questioning the competence of the design team. Perhaps in hindsight it would have been better to merely insinuate this... That said, if the design team decided to ditch the playtest initiative system, damage systems, starship combat system, and relegate the timing/effect system to an optional rule, then I can't really sustain a negative opinion of their competence.
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Sorry, but the initiative system was about as useless as they come.
You seem to be talking about the timing/effect system. <shrug> The fixes introduced as many problems as they purportedly resolved.
While calling such mechanics "worthless" may be technically inaccurate (even a bad decision might have some value as a negative example), it is, I think, a fair assessment. In any case, it's moot, since Mongoose has at the very least, reduced the timing/effect system to a truly optional system and has eliminated the playtest initiative system.
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tbeard1999
SOC-14 1K
Saw some other things I liked in the preview and one thing that I didn't.
Likes
1. The "Planetary Quirks" Table on p. 2 of the second preview. This looks like a typo; I think it should be "Animal Quirks". EDIT--It isn't a typo. The quirks apply to the dominant life forms on the planet, as Rust points out. Anyhow, it's a chart that provides a short list of "quirks" -- specific characteristics -- for animals.
So, a Sensory Quirk might be "sees in infrared", while a "Reproductive Quirk" might be "lays eggs".
Personally, I'd love an expanded version of this chart to quickly generate game *descriptions* of critters. I find myself dragging occasionally when confronted with Traveller's dry, functional animal descriptions ("Flying Hijacker. 12kg" for instance). Charts like this, especially if they are well considered, can be very helpful to an overworked Referee.
2. I nearly spewed coffee over my desk when I read this: "The PGMP and FGMP are weapons of such unbelievable destructive potential that they are never deployed without due care and forethought – except by player characters."
Concerns
If the timing/effect system has truly been relegated to an optional rule, then there appears to be some legacy text problems in the second preview -- the descriptions on p5 of the preview refer to Effect. On the other hand, if timing/effect is NOT optional, then that's unwelcome news to me. I hope my celebration of the demise of the timing/effect system was not premature...
I gotta say that I am looking forward to MGT. I always intended to buy it; now I strongly suspect that I may even like it (assuming they actually have removed timing/effect from the combat system). <scratches head> Whodathunkit...
Likes
1. The "Planetary Quirks" Table on p. 2 of the second preview. This looks like a typo; I think it should be "Animal Quirks". EDIT--It isn't a typo. The quirks apply to the dominant life forms on the planet, as Rust points out. Anyhow, it's a chart that provides a short list of "quirks" -- specific characteristics -- for animals.
So, a Sensory Quirk might be "sees in infrared", while a "Reproductive Quirk" might be "lays eggs".
Personally, I'd love an expanded version of this chart to quickly generate game *descriptions* of critters. I find myself dragging occasionally when confronted with Traveller's dry, functional animal descriptions ("Flying Hijacker. 12kg" for instance). Charts like this, especially if they are well considered, can be very helpful to an overworked Referee.
2. I nearly spewed coffee over my desk when I read this: "The PGMP and FGMP are weapons of such unbelievable destructive potential that they are never deployed without due care and forethought – except by player characters."
Concerns
If the timing/effect system has truly been relegated to an optional rule, then there appears to be some legacy text problems in the second preview -- the descriptions on p5 of the preview refer to Effect. On the other hand, if timing/effect is NOT optional, then that's unwelcome news to me. I hope my celebration of the demise of the timing/effect system was not premature...
I gotta say that I am looking forward to MGT. I always intended to buy it; now I strongly suspect that I may even like it (assuming they actually have removed timing/effect from the combat system). <scratches head> Whodathunkit...
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