Some people dont get Traveller!!

[Havocatalyst]

I have a good gaming group that would really like to play T20, they are familiar with the D20 system but they cant understand why Traveller isn't like many of the other sci-fi RPG, Traveller doesnt have cybernetics or world shattering psionics or even one handed photon blasters that can level a building. I have one moron that says "I dont like any game were you can die in character creation." or "Traveller tech is based on the 1970s we have more advanced tech today than is in Traveller." I refuse to change Traveller to make it more like say Alternity or Star Wars. I feel that Traveller is fine, and is anti-munchkin, especially the older versions. Can anyone help me to explain the elegance of Traveller or should I just find someone else to RPG with.

 

[theSea]

Havocatalyst---

oops - you've touched a nerve.

Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I have one moron that says "I dont like any game were you can die in character creation."

Firstly. if I recall correctly, failed survival in T20 character creation does not equal death - just instantly mustered out. The death rule is generally considered optional (actually they're all optional) in MT and beyond.

Here's how I explained it to my new players....

"Character creation is a 'game within a game.' You have to balance the risks with the rewards - the longer you keep your character in prior history the more skills and benefits acrue. BUT, the longer your character stays in, the greater the chance that you'll lose it all... or maybe just a portion of it to aging effects. You have to balance these two factors."

Seriously - there's a REASON Scouts have such a tough survival roll - it has nothing to do with the hazards of the job and everything to do with JOT and a free Scoutship. Without the 'oof you've lost it all' of the failed survival roll there is little incentive to produce anything except retirees... and this is Traveller - not GeezerQuest.

Treat character generation as a game of its own... have your players generate several characters and pick the one they like the most.... and remind that them that prior history is the mother of all roleplaying hooks.

"Traveller tech is based on the 1970s we have more advanced tech today than is in Traveller."

Nonsense, so is Star Wars (20th Century Fox 1977). His point? Oh, no hand disintegrator. Too bad.

The following movies TV programs mirror Traveller's tech line pretty closely and are recommended for getting the 'feel'

</font>

• Outland - aka High Noon on Io
  
  </font>
• Alien - made in 1979 - stands up pretty well - no?</font>
• Aliens - Marines with ACR's - what more needs be said?</font>
• Blade Runner - pistols, air/rafts and bio-mechanical androids</font>
• Firefly - freakin' Traveller the TV series... <sarcasm>sure it stunk </sarcasm> that's why they're makin' a movie and the DVD set sold thousands of copies months before it's hit the market -
  
  bite me Fox television!</font>
• Total Recall - remember the personality overlay machine in Expedition to Zhodane?? I saw an awful lot of slug throwers in that picture.</font>
• Starship Troopers - this surely was an abomination that sent RAH spinning in his grave, and they cut the battledress completely (/me flips P.V. the bird). But *still* you get your space marines with ACRs. And Psionics too. Just no bloody heavy weapons squads or fire support worth a damn. Definitely required viewing prior to running Chamax Plague/Horde.</font>
• Babylon 5 a PPG is not much different from a slug thrower - it just looks prettier on screen... the rest of the milleaux is severly Traveller.</font>

... and that's just movies and TV off the top of my pointy head. Now go look at some other threads for the books, your players *do* read, right?

Sure it can deal with a little polish here and there... but if one can suspend disbelief for Bigby's Crushing Hand I'm sure this ought to be no big hassle.

I refuse to change Traveller to make it more like say Alternity or Star Wars.

Bravo - good for you. Seriously, if what they really want to be playing is one of those games, then that's what they should be playing. Personally I'd advise against knocking Traveller until it's been tried, but I've learned that not everyone is open-minded on this silly little rock.

I feel that Traveller is fine, and is anti-munchkin, especially the older versions. Can anyone help me to explain the elegance of Traveller or should I just find someone else to RPG with.

Well, that's a matter of gaming style. I'm of the opinion that someone who plays roleplaying games to roleplay can find someone interesting to be in any setting. On the other hand, if your group is more interested in 'rollplaying' their way to demi-godhood (by no means an invalid choice of recreation) then you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

Just my cr0.02

--michael

 

[Ganidirsii O'Flynn]

I'm gonna chime in here too....

Tell your players that the game isn't RIFTS. Any game where:

a) the designer draws the vehicles with a measurement of "gun barrels per square foot" and then does the stats...

and

b) where you can start the game with power armor and a plasma gun at level 1...

is a munchkin fest. PUH-LEEEZE

Another couple movies that could be added to theSea's list are:

"Silent Running" made around 72-74 or so. Bruce Dern stars... has some real interesting robot interaction.

and

"Red Planet" made about two or three years ago. Talk about your Scout Mission gone horribly wrong...

And WTF. Some people never will get Traveller. But I never got Vampire: the Goth-Boy in Fangs either.

**shrug**

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by theSea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I have one moron that says "I dont like any game were you can die in character creation."

</font>[/QUOTE]If you think about it, this isn't moronic.

What is the one commodity that we have a finite amount of? Time. And if I spend my time doing something to no purpose (rolling a character who ends up dead, a lot like 'self pleasure' but 'without the pleasure'....), then I've consumed some of my valuable time doing.... sweet FA. I object to that.

I understand the metagame of character generation. But I think death is just silly - wounding, maiming, dishonourable discharge, whatever... these are all interesting and one can play with them. But unless you have resurrection, death just means 'please start again'.

So having that in the character generation sequence will sometimes (or often) lead to the wasting of time and that is in fact a crime, IMO. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

If you have enough time in your life to afford to spend time (sometimes a lot of time) filling up paper with a character, then tearing it up as he dies, then more power to you. Most of us don't have that luxury.

Firstly. if I recall correctly, failed survival in T20 character creation does not equal death - just instantly mustered out. The death rule is generally considered optional (actually they're all optional) in MT and beyond.

There are many more interesting results than death.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"Traveller tech is based on the 1970s we have more advanced tech today than is in Traveller."

Nonsense, so is Star Wars (20th Century Fox 1977). His point? Oh, no hand disintegrator. Too bad.
</font>[/QUOTE]So is Star Wars not similarly flawed?

Two wrongs do not a right make.

[*]Starship Troopers - this surely was an abomination that sent RAH spinning in his grave, and they cut the battledress completely (/me flips P.V. the bird). But *still* you get your space marines with ACRs. And Psionics too. Just no bloody heavy weapons squads or fire support worth a damn. Definitely required viewing prior to running Chamax Plague/Horde.

Roughneck Chronicles, the cartoon, used Combat Armour instead of Battle Dress, but it was much better in many ways that the movie.

Additionally, depending on your liberality with the understanding of 'weapon' as a mustering out benefit, you *might* actually be able to start with battle dress and a fusion gun. (Law 0 high tech world?). And Psionics *can* be game and world dominating (in fact, I think they dominate thousands of worlds, IIRC my Zhodani Consulate Galactography).

Now, all this doesn't mean the player in question isn't being a closed minded git or that you should play with him. But trying to see his PoV is probably a good idea. And calling him (even though I don't know him) a moron in a public forum is probably a good sign of trouble ahead for your game.

 

[jchurchill]

Tell your player to go find an Advanced Dungeons & Dragons game. That sounds more his speed.

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I have a good gaming group that would really like to play T20, they are familiar with the D20 system but they cant understand why Traveller isn't like many of the other sci-fi RPG, Traveller doesnt have cybernetics or world shattering psionics or even one handed photon blasters that can level a building. I have one moron that says "I dont like any game were you can die in character creation." or "Traveller tech is based on the 1970s we have more advanced tech today than is in Traveller." I refuse to change Traveller to make it more like say Alternity or Star Wars. I feel that Traveller is fine, and is anti-munchkin, especially the older versions. Can anyone help me to explain the elegance of Traveller or should I just find someone else to RPG with.

He's not wrong, and he's not a moron. There are many things in Traveller that could be updated to more modern standards, that doesn't mean he's wrong to expect to play a game that appeals to more modern sensibilities. Not everyone is happy playing a game that sticks to anachronistic views on character generation and technology.

It does sound like Traveller is not going to be his cup of tea though. Frankly, I think the whole point of Traveller is that it's easily adaptable - it's nothing more than a sci-fi toolkit, after all - and there are too many people that stick rigidly to canon for no other reason than because it's there.

 

[siefertma2]

Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I have a good gaming group that would really like to play T20, they are familiar with the D20 system but they cant understand why Traveller isn't like many of the other sci-fi RPG, Traveller doesnt have cybernetics or world shattering psionics or even one handed photon blasters that can level a building. I have one moron that says "I dont like any game were you can die in character creation." or "Traveller tech is based on the 1970s we have more advanced tech today than is in Traveller." I refuse to change Traveller to make it more like say Alternity or Star Wars. I feel that Traveller is fine, and is anti-munchkin, especially the older versions. Can anyone help me to explain the elegance of Traveller or should I just find someone else to RPG with.

I have the exact same problem as you do. No one at my FLGS will touch Traveller in any form (CT, MT, GT, or T20). Of course the whole "dying during character creation" thing still comes up. Although I point out to them that you no longer actually die they change their complaint to "Well, if I want to make a Imperial Marine Major and I blow my survival roll at one point and I end up getting mustered out I've in essense died and I'm unable to make the chararter I want to create."

Although T20 has greatly updated the technology since the 70s, no one seems to like anything related to "hard sci-fi." I fear that Star Wars and Star Trek has infected the genre.

And finally, as a testement to the plague of munchkinism in the hobby, everyone complains about combat being "too deadly." Most of the games my friends play are mainly action-adventure based where the PCs can take incrediable amounts of damage and still survive (e.g. Oh! I just took a burst of Ak-47 fire to the chest, but I've got two hit points left, so I'm OK.) and do just about anything (e.g. blackflips over the 30 foot chasm blazing away with twin rocket launchers while decoding ancient Sumarian text).

I don't know what to tell you. I'd say stick with us. You can always sign onto one of the numerous online games that are being run. That's the only way I can get to play.

 

[The Hinterworlds Rambler]

I'd simply tell him its a RPG with a core history as rich and as long-lived as D&D, truly the most realized Science Fiction RPG hands down...Star Wars has been around for a while, but that doesnt meant that it doesn't SUCK. Its characters are 2D and very finite. It doesn't have to be "Cowboys in Space", as it can be literally ANYTHING. You may want to warn him he might have to think with something besides a Plasma Gun and his army of personal (Rifts Jab) Skelebots. If that don't work, tell him HEROCLIX is hiring...

 

[EvilDrGanymede]

I have the exact same problem as you do. No one at my FLGS will touch Traveller in any form (CT, MT, GT, or T20). Of course the whole "dying during character creation" thing still comes up. Although I point out to them that you no longer actually die they change their complaint to "Well, if I want to make a Imperial Marine Major and I blow my survival roll at one point and I end up getting mustered out I've in essense died and I'm unable to make the chararter I want to create."

This is exactly why IMO the GURPS Traveller character generation is vastly superior to the other forms of Traveller - you get the character that you want to play in GURPS by building it with points. The random 'booting out/dying' system in the other versions of Traveller mean you're more likely to end up with a no-hoper cripple who got booted out of the Marines instead of that Marine Major that you wanted. As someone else pointed out, I'd rather not waste my time making a character I don't want.

I'm often boggled that people still think that the random character generation system of CT is even worth the paper it's written on, let alone think it's actually superior to anything else...

Although T20 has greatly updated the technology since the 70s, no one seems to like anything related to "hard sci-fi." I fear that Star Wars and Star Trek has infected the genre.

SJG's 'Transhuman Space' seems to be doing pretty well for itself, and that's a hard sci-fi game...

 

[Anthony]

One suggestion here: having contempt for your players is _not_ they way to convince them. It's a bad sign if you feel the temptation to call players 'morons'. Telling someone '[he] might have to think with something besides a Plasma Gun and his army of personal (Rifts Jab) Skelebots' may be helpful if your goal is to feel superior to someone else, but does not help with getting people to like Traveller...

 

[jchurchill]

This is exactly why IMO the GURPS Traveller character generation is vastly superior to the other forms of Traveller - you get the character that you want to play in GURPS by building it with points. The random 'booting out/dying' system in the other versions of Traveller mean you're more likely to end up with a no-hoper cripple who got booted out of the Marines instead of that Marine Major that you wanted. As someone else pointed out, I'd rather not waste my time making a character I don't want.

I'm often boggled that people still think that the random character generation system of CT is even worth the paper it's written on, let alone think it's actually superior to anything else...
=================================================

I personally think the generation system adds some of the feel of real life. We don't always get to choose our exact path and sometimes people drift into a career or profession for a while and learn ineresting skills and abilities. Playing a character that has some physical flaw or mental defect [no insinuation there dear doctor] is often more challenging and fun than playing the FFFFDF here of the galaxy. Besides if one is highly successful in a career and has no reason ot leave it they won't. So there is little or no justification for having them leave a service unless something happens or they start to get too old and want some excitement in their life.

 

[Havocatalyst]

I appreciate all the replies. You have made good points all. But, in response, GURPS is a steaming pile of Crap, I have every right to call anyone moron.
I will apply the points that are applicable, but I am serious about how much I appreciate all your opinions. Please keep posting!

 

[jchurchill]

PS. A passing note regarding the "moron" controversy --

Calling someone a moron simply because he plays like one is not considered good manners or even politically correct. I believe the terms "special" or challenged are much in vogue these days. One could refer to the "special" player in your group or the "challenged" player.

One could also obliquely refer to him as a "Gamma minus" --- truly in the spirit of science fiction.
Sobriquets on the order of "mouth breather" "drooler" "knuckle dragger" or "GED wizard" should be kept to private mutterings.

Finally, this might be an ideal time to introduce that player to certain scientific phenomena like gravity, oxygen and the lack of it, bodies in motion like 9mm cupronickel projectiles and the like. Let him roll up his character and ignore the survival roles. Then introduce his character to all the aforementioned.

Or better yet, let him have his precious disintegrator ray. make sure his enemies are well supplied with the same.

 

[jchurchill]

But, in response, GURPS is a steaming pile of Crap,
=================================================
That may be true but you don't have to play it, do you?

"I have every right to call anyone moron."

Sure, it's a free country. Sort of... just remember that morons are a large and powerful interest group in many parts of the world.

 

[Havocatalyst]

Dont get me wrong, I like GURPs, just feel defensive about people saying it or any RPG system being better than another. All RPG systems have merit, even some of the monsters FGU created in the 80's.

 

[jchurchill]

Dont get me wrong, I like GURPs, just feel defensive about people saying it or any RPG system being better than another. All RPG systems have merit,
================================================
You like it but it's a steaming pile of crap? Why not I guess.

I would venture to say that almost nay game system can be fun and useful if you have a good referee. Even the best systems can be ruined by an overgenerous or completely unimaginative referee. We have probably all seen that at some point.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I appreciate all the replies. You have made good points all. But, in response, GURPS is a steaming pile of Crap, I have every right to call anyone moron.

Why yes, you certainly have the right to call people morons. However, if you goal is to persuade people, rather than inflating your ego by putting down people who disagree with you, calling people morons is not a recommended or effective tactic.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
This is exactly why IMO the GURPS Traveller character generation is vastly superior to the other forms of Traveller - you get the character that you want to play in GURPS by building it with points. The random 'booting out/dying' system in the other versions of Traveller mean you're more likely to end up with a no-hoper cripple who got booted out of the Marines instead of that Marine Major that you wanted. As someone else pointed out, I'd rather not waste my time making a character I don't want.

I'll take issue with 'vastly superior', at least as some sort of objective description. I, OTOH, find GT character creation to be the antithesis of what I want.

I'm one of those who likes to see a character 'born' into a world, watch his decisions as he goes along (trying to make the wisest ones, but accepting fate plays a hand), and then watching how he evolves as a consequence. Built characters (IMO) serve to neuter creativity (how many times do I see builders build *the same character over and over again*?). They never force you to make a real decision or accept that some part of your characters lives is beyond your control.

This is a profound philosophical difference.... some people are builders and are trying to craft to some mental image.... I'm a genesis kind of fellow and want to watch the character evolve.

Neither method is 'vastly superior'. Just 'vastly different'.

I'm often boggled that people still think that the random character generation system of CT is even worth the paper it's written on, let alone think it's actually superior to anything else...

I'm boggled that anyone is as narrow minded as that statement above seems to imply. Talk about a limited world view!

Random character generation offers some inspiration, it offers excercises of the imagination and the mind, and it encourages *difference*. Building characters (from the people I've seen who do it over the past 20 years) encourages people always playing their favorite archetype and often boringly similar characters.

But of course, I must be an absolute dunderhead.

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I appreciate all the replies. You have made good points all. But, in response, GURPS is a steaming pile of Crap, I have every right to call anyone moron.

There is a difference between the right (which you assuredly have) and the wisdom of excercising the right.

All I was getting at is if you think so lowly of the person, that doesn't seem to be a great way to get started. And if you're willing to apply such an epithet to them, why are you trying to convince them of anything? Seems to me you'd want to distance yourself from such a person.

Anyway, I'm not challenging anyones right to call anyone else a moron. I'm suggesting that may be a cause for concern in a relationship, and a gaming group definitely is a relationship.

 

[grendelttroll]

Originally posted by Havocatalyst:
I have a good gaming group that would really like to play T20, they are familiar with the D20 system but they cant understand why Traveller isn't like many of the other sci-fi RPG, Traveller doesnt have cybernetics or world shattering psionics or even one handed photon blasters that can level a building. I have one moron that says "I dont like any game were you can die in character creation." or "Traveller tech is based on the 1970s we have more advanced tech today than is in Traveller." I refuse to change Traveller to make it more like say Alternity or Star Wars. I feel that Traveller is fine, and is anti-munchkin, especially the older versions. Can anyone help me to explain the elegance of Traveller or should I just find someone else to RPG with.

Hmmm.... I don't know if I can cover any more than what has been covered already by others, but I'll try:

I know your pain. When it comes to your position, been there. Done that. Got the T-shirt. It is a very hard situation to get anyone interested in a Sci-fi setting that isn't tied to a movie, a T.V. show, or some other extra-rpg product line. What you are telling me is that this represents your gaming group.

When it comes to the tech, it depends upon which version of Traveller you play. There has been attempts to correct certain antiquities (Look at LBB's 4-7. Before them, with the exception of lasers and starships, weapons, computers, and other equipment was totally based upon 1950's stuff.). Even TNE tried, it just could've been done a little better. Those of us who try to keep at least a rudementary track of the science world make adjustments. Still no ray guns other than the standard Traveller lasers, Plasma, and Fusion guns though.

If you can convince them to try a Traveller situation with this kind of group, do NOT use such mediocre stories like The Traveller Adventure or Exit Visa. These will put them to sleep. Try a mercenary story. They can play around with the toys to see how they work. Believe me; this worked with my group when I ran a MT game when I was stationed in Hawaii. It scared the piss out of the group what these weapons can do -- to THEM (Remember: What they can use, the enemy can! ). The ones who couldn't "get it" left. The others stayed on for a free trader campaign -- and learned to really like it. I was also playing with people in their early to mid 20's, not 15-year olds.

Well, you know your group best. I am sure you will think of the right thing.