mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I would say yes, some world governments would detain off-worlders just because they can, and they are xenophobic.
Such worlds would likely be red zoned by the Imperium though.
Sovereignity of Imperial Worlds?
- Thread starter Hal
- Start date
Such worlds would likely be red zoned by the Imperium though.
Sigg:
I allow Naval captains to sell berths to citizens at market value, when not on classified movement orders. Naval, Marine, Scout, and Army veterans can often take hops at Steerage rates (KCr4), space-A. Police, Science, Merchant, and Pirate personnel can often get low-berth rates. I assume the pirate career to be starmercs, and that mercs in licensed units count as imperial service while on contract to an imperial member world.
Territorial nobles can commandeer a ship; it must be the smallest ship with the needed jump rating available (unless the admiral offers bigger), and can fill the available space with retinue within reason. Once commandeered, the ship is in personal service until said noble is cashiered, or returns to his fief. The conditions of the commandeering must be explicit, must be in a missive sent to higher HQ, and the noble must be in person aboard, and the drawback is that the next layer up the Noble chain can deem it "unworthy" and order him to make reparitions and/or have the archduke remove him/her pending disenfranchisement. If the noble is willing to pay charter rates, it merely needs not be unlawful.
Honor & hereditary nobles can usually get steerage rates for self and several guests, or may commandeer at charter rates. Yes, this means Jo the Honor Duke can choose to comandeer a naval vessel... but he pays charter rates! Biggest thing a PC's ever taken this up on is a Gazelle... but once on target, the Skipper decided that intervention was in fact in line, and refunded the whole shebang, "For the good of the Imperium." (They rescued a subsector duke from a putsch.)
Any noble who abuses commandeering will be "relieved of duties" and is likely to lose title and citizenship both.
I allow Naval captains to sell berths to citizens at market value, when not on classified movement orders. Naval, Marine, Scout, and Army veterans can often take hops at Steerage rates (KCr4), space-A. Police, Science, Merchant, and Pirate personnel can often get low-berth rates. I assume the pirate career to be starmercs, and that mercs in licensed units count as imperial service while on contract to an imperial member world.
Territorial nobles can commandeer a ship; it must be the smallest ship with the needed jump rating available (unless the admiral offers bigger), and can fill the available space with retinue within reason. Once commandeered, the ship is in personal service until said noble is cashiered, or returns to his fief. The conditions of the commandeering must be explicit, must be in a missive sent to higher HQ, and the noble must be in person aboard, and the drawback is that the next layer up the Noble chain can deem it "unworthy" and order him to make reparitions and/or have the archduke remove him/her pending disenfranchisement. If the noble is willing to pay charter rates, it merely needs not be unlawful.
Honor & hereditary nobles can usually get steerage rates for self and several guests, or may commandeer at charter rates. Yes, this means Jo the Honor Duke can choose to comandeer a naval vessel... but he pays charter rates! Biggest thing a PC's ever taken this up on is a Gazelle... but once on target, the Skipper decided that intervention was in fact in line, and refunded the whole shebang, "For the good of the Imperium." (They rescued a subsector duke from a putsch.)
Any noble who abuses commandeering will be "relieved of duties" and is likely to lose title and citizenship both.
Icosahedron
SOC-14 1K
I would define Imperials as those people whose first loyalty is to the Emperor rather than to the planetary government - If a planet attempted secession, whose side would you be on?
IMTU, which is non-canon, I have a Sheriff (Nottingham type, not Dodge City) appointed to each world as an 'advisor' to the local ruler(s). The Sheriff has a staff proportional to the world population and this will include an armed contingent and an 'intelligence' branch. My idea was based on Soviet 'advisors' in satellite states.
IMTU, which is non-canon, I have a Sheriff (Nottingham type, not Dodge City) appointed to each world as an 'advisor' to the local ruler(s). The Sheriff has a staff proportional to the world population and this will include an armed contingent and an 'intelligence' branch. My idea was based on Soviet 'advisors' in satellite states.
Note on CT sources: The CT adventure Exit Visa makes it clear that getting off-world is not only NOT a right, but a readily locally deniable privilege. This adventure is in the Traveller Book, and is set on an Imperial world; it appears in another publication on a different Imperial world.
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Pickles
Guest
How so? Rights are artefacts of law, and as such are created by governments.
no. by definition, rights exist before law. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men ... are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights .... That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." etc. a "right" allowed or withheld by a government at its discretion is by definition not a right, but a priviledge.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Nature does not respect human rights 
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Pickles
Guest
no. by definition, rights exist before law. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men ... are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights .... That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men." etc. a "right" allowed or withheld by a government at its discretion is by definition not a right, but a priviledge. </font>[/QUOTE]My point, exactly. Rights, as defined by one particular government in one particular legal document.
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Black Globe Generator
Guest
"Another publication" in this instance being The Traveller Adventure. (Odd that they put that same scenario into both, eh?)
To answer Hal's question above, no, a person may not necessarily just "walk onto a starship" just because s/he is an Imperial citizen - IMTU there are indeed regulations that must be followed, and sometimes negotiating them is a nightmare as shown in Exit Visa. (I have a variant of this that involves getting export permits for speculative cargo.)
However, the underlying principle is one of Imperial citizens moving freely between worlds - as Sigg Oddra noted, worlds that make this difficult or dangerous tend to end up as amber or red zones, which can kill any planetary economy dependent on trade. A planet may deny entry for a criminal record, for example, but any world that begins restricting Imperial citizens from a particular planet without due cause (like, say, a war in progress) or restricts access to Vargr who are Imperial citizens is most likely in violation of its member charter.
For me, the take-home message of Exit Visa is not that an Imperial citizen cannot be denied entry or exit without due cause - the scenario is about delays resulting from regulation, not the denial of rights of movement as a fundamental right of citizenship. Yer gonna get yer visa stamped at some point - the question is, can ya get it done in time...?
if you mean there are no natural consequences to ignoring rights, there most certainly are, in the sphere of human endeavor.
rights exist before any government, and thus have their own definition independent of any government. that a government document refers to them does not call them into existence, and that a government ignores or denies them does not negate them. "rights" that are granted or withheld by a government, at its discretion, are not rights at all, rather the word "rights" is being misused.
but the question isn't about simple transit, of some cargo hauler crew passing through. it's about immigration and emmigration. few worlds will have no interest in this, most will have their own history outside of the imperium and will have a major interest in controlling their borders, and it's hard to see any imperium successfully imposing a policy on 10,000 worlds that oppose it. if trade occurs and wars don't then the imperium has no particular reason to care what else goes on.
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Black Globe Generator
Guest
It is? I missed the memo!
I didn't mean to take the thread (further) off-topic, but the discussion had moved on to what is an Imperial citizen, and I responded to that. I didn't (and don't) see anything about immigration and emigration looking back at the thread.
But if that's what we're talking about, okay, let's talk about it!
No, immigration and emigration may be controlled by the member worlds of the Imperium IMTU. Open borders for promoting interstellar trade in goods and services is not the same as an absence of immigration and emigration controls. Travelling between worlds, including a reasonable stay? Right of Imperial citizenship guaranteed by charter. Setting up permanent residence? Subject to local controls.
the original question was, "does a government have the right or ability to keep sophants from leaving their world?" seems to me immigration and emigration are implied. why would a planetary government have the power to detain visitors at will but not control immigration or emigration?
in every version of traveller I'm aware of, starports are not under local jurisdiction but imperial. people come and g according to imperial law. across the extrality line however is a whole 'nuther legal world. the original question was, "I'm talking about a law abiding citizen who intends to just walk into a star port, get on a ship, and just plain "leave"." sounds like exit controls to me.
rogermccarthy
SOC-12
Presumably Cleon's Warrant of Restitution in the Milieu 0 book continues to be the foundation of the Imperium:
Article I - 'the Imperium considers as citizens any recognised sentient creature native or naturalised by a member world of the Imperium...No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen may be abridged or denied by any member world'
Articles II-III deal with the Imperial succession, nobility and Moot.
Article IV supports free trade (but apparently only in the negative sense of forbidding piracy and smuggling - tariffs and outright bans on imports and exports don't rate a mention).
Article V standardises calendar, currency and measurements
Article VI prohibits slavery
Article VII defines the extra-territoriality of designated Imperial possessions
Article VIII reserves the power to unilaterally enact changes in any or all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world or citizen.
So all sophonts within the Imperium are full citizens (not subjects) but are endowed with no 'inalienable rights' other than those granted by subsequent Imperial legislation.
This reflects a completely different concept of citizenship and rights than the Anglo-American liberal tradition and is far closer to the Roman/continental model where the state grants citizens rights rather than the other way around.
Exit Visa clearly establishes that there is no fundamental right to interstellar travel unless citizens have been specifically granted it by the Imperium (presumably this would cover Imperial nobles, officials and service members).
Article I - 'the Imperium considers as citizens any recognised sentient creature native or naturalised by a member world of the Imperium...No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen may be abridged or denied by any member world'
Articles II-III deal with the Imperial succession, nobility and Moot.
Article IV supports free trade (but apparently only in the negative sense of forbidding piracy and smuggling - tariffs and outright bans on imports and exports don't rate a mention).
Article V standardises calendar, currency and measurements
Article VI prohibits slavery
Article VII defines the extra-territoriality of designated Imperial possessions
Article VIII reserves the power to unilaterally enact changes in any or all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world or citizen.
So all sophonts within the Imperium are full citizens (not subjects) but are endowed with no 'inalienable rights' other than those granted by subsequent Imperial legislation.
This reflects a completely different concept of citizenship and rights than the Anglo-American liberal tradition and is far closer to the Roman/continental model where the state grants citizens rights rather than the other way around.
Exit Visa clearly establishes that there is no fundamental right to interstellar travel unless citizens have been specifically granted it by the Imperium (presumably this would cover Imperial nobles, officials and service members).
Re migration of people - remember this is an Empire not a democracy.
With that in mind here's a possible scenario:
The Empire has a vested interest in ensuring its citizens have the ability to move freely. As a result Imperial Citizens have the right of free (unrestricted ) passage.
But the majority of people on Imperial Worlds are not Imperial Citizens. Imperial Citizenship is a privilege much more akin to Roman Citizenship than to modern citizenship. {While most real world empires wanted their merchants and officials to be able to move about, they were often quite particular about NOT granting regular people the same opportunity.}
This is consistent with the Imperial Nobles having the right to a body guard and or to carry arms within reason even on high law level worlds. (Don't remember if this was "canon" or just a house rule I saw posted on the web - but it made sense to me.) This could also serve as a reason why so many travelers have military experience - that's how they earned citizenship and therefore the ability to travel.
Local sovereignty then becomes sovereignty over the common people - as long as you keep the taxes coming and don't mess with trade, the Nobles or Imp Citizens, how the local government works is up to the locals. In practice, the government can also mess with rank and file Imp Citizens to a certain degree without too much trouble. But if they've expressed a desire to move on, the local government would need a good reason to stop them from moving (ongoing investigation for a felony recognized as such under Imperial Law or some such thing.)
Not saying all TUs should be this way - just a possible way to address the sovereignty issues.
With that in mind here's a possible scenario:
The Empire has a vested interest in ensuring its citizens have the ability to move freely. As a result Imperial Citizens have the right of free (unrestricted ) passage.
But the majority of people on Imperial Worlds are not Imperial Citizens. Imperial Citizenship is a privilege much more akin to Roman Citizenship than to modern citizenship. {While most real world empires wanted their merchants and officials to be able to move about, they were often quite particular about NOT granting regular people the same opportunity.}This is consistent with the Imperial Nobles having the right to a body guard and or to carry arms within reason even on high law level worlds. (Don't remember if this was "canon" or just a house rule I saw posted on the web - but it made sense to me.) This could also serve as a reason why so many travelers have military experience - that's how they earned citizenship and therefore the ability to travel.
Local sovereignty then becomes sovereignty over the common people - as long as you keep the taxes coming and don't mess with trade, the Nobles or Imp Citizens, how the local government works is up to the locals. In practice, the government can also mess with rank and file Imp Citizens to a certain degree without too much trouble. But if they've expressed a desire to move on, the local government would need a good reason to stop them from moving (ongoing investigation for a felony recognized as such under Imperial Law or some such thing.)
Not saying all TUs should be this way - just a possible way to address the sovereignty issues.
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Black Globe Generator
Guest
[moderator]No foul language on the public forums.
[ December 04, 2006, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Sigg Oddra ]
[ December 04, 2006, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Sigg Oddra ]
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Black Globe Generator
Guest
Part 1...
the original question was, "does a government have the right or ability to keep sophants from leaving their world?" seems to me immigration and emigration are implied.</font>[/QUOTE]This is from Hal's reply at the top of page two, and the very next line is:
I don't get emigration from "touring," so I'd have to say that it had nothing to do with emigration and immigration - unless you have another post you want to reference?
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Black Globe Generator
Guest
Part 2...
Is there another CT canon source you can point to that spells it out better than "Skyport Authority"?
The only CT source that I'm familiar with on the subject is "Skyport Authority," JTAS 19:37-42, which implies but does not explicitly state that this is the case. In fact, at the time the article was published in 1983, there were other canon sources that depict starports run by private corporations contracted with planetary governments in the Imperium (e.g., the corporation Odin Yard and Dock in Tancred).
Is there another CT canon source you can point to that spells it out better than "Skyport Authority"?
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Black Globe Generator
Guest
I really need to pick up the M0 book one of these days - that's pretty interesting stuff.
From DGP for CT we have the following: "Emperor Cleon I defines Imperial citizenship as "any sentient life firm within the Imperial borders, regardless of its origins." Traveller's Digest 12:35 (quoted from Don McKinney's Traveller timeline, v. 2, p. 48).
Agreed.
Whups, hang on a mo', you lost me there.
Exit Visa is about a crew that is held up because of a paperwork irregularity most likely resulting from a criminal act in the captain's past. We're into criminal law territory here, which takes a general discussion of the rights of citizenship off the table.
Also, nowhere does the adventure suggest that the Alell starport bureacrats are Imperials - only one of the thirty-three officials listed in the adventure is designated as an Imperial (the assistant consul). With all due respect, I think you're drawing inferences here that the adventure doesn't support.
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