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Speech by a veteran pirate-hunter

Doesn't the 100d limit for the star factor in to the jump point and jump masking?

It might, assuming that Tizon's orbit is close to the sun, mean a much longer transit time to jump. Which could possibly result in the straggler situation.
 
It could Crashlogic.

One thought I had was maybe this was a non-jump convoy to some outer planet in the system. In which case the trip could be much longer than a few hours, as much as a week or more.

Or the scenario may be describing a case of the snatcher waiting (lurking quiet) at the jump-in point of the convoy. In hopes of finding one of the merchies dropping out of jump nearby and far from the rally area, in space and/or time. That'd be a huge bit of luck though.

Just not enough information
 
Crashlogic,

Perhaps the mainworld is masked by the primary star? In the case of Tizon, it's a good bet.

In order for Tizon to have anything near a 'shirt-sleeve' biopshere (and there is no indication in canon that everyone there lives in domes) it must orbit it's primary at a certain distance. In the case of Tizon, the distance puts the world within it's primary's 100D limit at all times. Tizon is always masked.

Tizon has two stars. A K2V primary and M3D dwarf companion. Check out these numbers from stars on either 'side' of those two.

K0:
- Stellar Diameter (Solar diam.): 0.85
- 100D in AUs: 0.80
- Time to clear at one-gee: 2.1 days

K5:
- Stellar Diameter (Solar diam.): 0.745
- 100D in AUs: 0.69
- Time to clear at one-gee: 2 days

M0:
- Stellar Diameter (Solar diam.): 0.63
- 100D in AUs: 0.59
- Time to clear at one-gee: 31 hours

M5:
- Stellar Diameter (Solar diam.): 0.32
- 100D in AUs: 0.30
- Time to clear at one-gee: 22 hours


I happen to support the idea of pirates in the OTU. However, Jatay's description of piracy through his 'Kapiten' character does not mesh with the OTU at all, the weapons, ranges, and other aspects are all completely off.

Therefore the type of piracy 'Kapiten' is lecturing on depends wholly on those aspects that separate his TU from the OTU. Until we know those differences we cannot participate in the lecture's Q&A session.

I want very much to participate in that Q&A session.


Have fun,
Bill
 
to be honest I didn't measure out the exact range in a "Tom Clancy" manner. I simply arranged in a manner I thought sounded well.

Also, the sort of thing that the Kapiten is describeing is caused by the presumed "fact"(presumed by me)that jumping in formation is difficult, one navigation error can lead to great distorion, and cause a tendency to scatter upon reentry. It is not just the navigation problem-every jump causes a slight distortion, several coming close in time and space causes larger distortions.

While IMTY jumps in formation are doable but they have the danger of this scatter effect. There would be minor misjumps occasionally, and there would be ships arriving which are searching about attempting to find each other(like paratroops after a drop)-in so doing it would not be uncommon for ships to fly farther away from the gathering point. I was really taking the analogy from Terran naval history-that was the normal weakness of convoys historically.

And yes I baseing that on the assumption that the entry was based on the primary stars limit, not the actual port's limit. I had always assumed that was normal(so I may have goofed on my reading of TU physics)and in any case I think it works better because it allows more room for adventures. I was also assumeing that the entry hazzards are increased the closer to a given mass. As most of the events take place in real space and in fact not enough information about jump-space is given to make for to many adventures in jump(for instance once in jump a ships course is set which takes away the players option of avoiding danger by manuever)

You may ask, "then isn't convoying more dangerous". The reply of course is, "sometimes it is-depending on given cirumstances. IMTU the chances of a convoy's entry causeing a "major"- misjump-swallowing a ship, or dropping it on a system on the other side of the galaxy, are very small esp if the routes are well known. But the chance of a ship landing where it isn't supposed to be are pretty good.

All this puts a new factor into TU-one I have wondered about. It would add several days per system. Unless one also assumes that one jump does not exaust all the fuel in an engine-and so could jump again as soon as the distortion had cleared up without refueling at every single system. J1, J2, J3 would refer to the speed of a single jump considered separately from the number of jumps possible. Of course that in turn would mean that it is possible for a J1 to take "shortcuts" and that cannot be allowed-but that can be accounted for in turn by saying that the presence of a large body enables the jump distortion to mend itself. Thus if a j1 jumps into intersteller space it cannot jump again unless it waits for weeks or goes far enough away from the distortion to jump safely. Both of these would mean that a j1 is better following a j1 route It also means that a base intersteller space would have to have a device capable of artificially mending jump-space. Which is an added reason why intersteller outposts are so rare.

All this also gives a motive to have orbiting starports at the outer edge of the system by the way.

Much of this is "tweaking" of course-but it sort of makes it work.

The explanation for the confusion was apparently that I was assumeing that the star's 100D was the normal entry/exit. From which I suppose the 100D of other bodies would function mainly as a navigational hazzard. It is not a supriseing error-I am more interested in the social science of Traveller then the "hard" science.

I apoligize for the confusion everyone. Please don't blame the good Kapiten Aelfwine for my sloppiness!
 
I was really taking the analogy from Terran naval history-that was the normal weakness of convoys historically.
----------------------
straying ships that is
 
So, the convoy and it's escorts can travel between the safety of the port and the safety of jump space in 3.88 hours. The military escorts' sensors and weapons have enough range to detect and fire upon any vessel within ~595K kilometers, which happens to be distance over 100K kilometers greater than the 100D limit distance they are covering.

And yet a priate can cut out a straggler while the escort watches impotently.
---------------------------------
This doesn't necessarily happen normally. It happens "several times". In the times Aelfwine was describeing, there was usually very good reason to belive in the presence of several ships. Their would have been a number of stragglers to deal with as well and Aelfwine would have been busy gathering them up.

The attack would require several at least one for the cut-out and one to make feints. They all know that Aelfwine can only pursue so far before he must return. That could mean they were part of an organized group but it could also mean simply that they had an informal cooperation. Sometimes it would mean simply that they were in the same hunting ground.


I am basing this on the assumption that straggling and scattering is common enough for pirates to have a reasonable chance, but not common enough to make convoying meaningless.

Also Aelfwine was being imprecise. He was also refering to incidents when an independant vessel was caught before he could get away.
 
Also Aelfwine was being imprecise. He was also refering to incidents when an independant vessel was caught before he could get away.
Correction: before that vessel could get away, of course. More importantly before Aelfwine could arrive.
 
Originally posted by jatay3:
Also, the sort of thing that the Kapiten is describeing is caused by the presumed "fact"(presumed by me)that jumping in formation is difficult, one navigation error can lead to great distorion, and cause a tendency to scatter upon reentry. It is not just the navigation problem-every jump causes a slight distortion, several coming close in time and space causes larger distortions.
Jatay,

That is a presumption IYTU then.

The physical accuracy of jump drive is 3000km per parsec jumped. That's from MWM's old JTAS 'Jumpspace' article. It's the temporal accuracy that is more of a bother.

Going by the 168 hours +/- 10%, your convoy could be scattered over 33.6 hours. FOr close to a day and a half, vessels will be exiting jump space within the 3000km/parsec sphere metnioned above. Merchants could even arrive before their escorts!

That obviously makes both convoying and military operations hard. MT introduced synchronized jumps as a result. There, the synched vessels arrive over a few hours instead. Of course, getting all those merchies to synchronize their jump calculations is another question!

While IMTY jumps in formation are doable but they have the danger of this scatter effect. There would be minor misjumps occasionally, and there would be ships arriving which are searching about attempting to find each other(like paratroops after a drop)-in so doing it would not be uncommon for ships to fly farther away from the gathering point.
That's a nice IMTU touch and one that would have been nice to know ahead of time. In the OTU, the chances of scatter are much less as I wrote above.

I was really taking the analogy from Terran naval history-that was the normal weakness of convoys historically.
When scattered by weather; mostly in the Age of Sail and WW2 N. Atlantic, or by direct order; i.e. PQ-17, policing stragglers is tough but doable. Seeing as in the OTU ships will arrive within the 3000km/parsec sphere and sensor ranges are measured in multiplelight-seconds, collecting stragglers is even easier.

And yes I baseing that on the assumption that the entry was based on the primary stars limit, not the actual port's limit.
Some, most in fact, worlds orbit outside of their primary's 100D limit. Using the world's limit is usually correct. Tizon is the exception.

I was also assumeing that the entry hazzards are increased the closer to a given mass.
Again, an IMTU assumption that would have been nice to know before reading the Kapiten's lecture.

In the OTU, entry close to a given mass is impoosible. You cannot exit jump within a 100D limt.

You may ask, "then isn't convoying more dangerous".
I won't ask that. I'm the fellow who wrote the Convoying and Commerce Raiders essay you'll find on many Traveller fan sites. Convoying in Traveller isn't more dangerous. For the most part, convoying in Traveller is useless.

Given weapon and sensor ranges in Traveller, plus the acceleration available to all ships, a world's 100D limit sphere can be patrolled rather easily. A merchant can thrust out to the jump limit, disappear into the safety of jump space for a week, arrive off it's destination's 100D limit, and thrust in to the port. For most if it's journey, the ship is untouchable in jump space.

IMTU the chances of a convoy's entry causeing a "major"- misjump-swallowing a ship, or dropping it on a system on the other side of the galaxy, are very small esp if the routes are well known. But the chance of a ship landing where it isn't supposed to be are pretty good.
Again, IYTU only and unknown to us beofre this.

Unless one also assumes that one jump does not exaust all the fuel in an engine-and so could jump again as soon as the distortion had cleared up without refueling at every single system.
One need not assume that at all as its already in the rules. The jump governor has been with us since the first edition of High Guard. All OTU ships designed since 1980 have one and all previously designed ships had one ret-conned into them.

Jumps only consume the amount of fuel the jump requires. Carry twenty dTons of jump fuel aboard a Suleiman, jump 1 parsec, and you'll have ten dTons of jump fuel left.

J1, J2, J3 would refer to the speed of a single jump considered separately from the number of jumps possible.
Speed as in time? If so, we're definitely in YTU territory here.

... saying that the presence of a large body enables the jump distortion to mend itself. Thus if a j1 jumps into intersteller space it cannot jump again unless it waits for weeks or goes far enough away from the distortion to jump safely.
Mass is not required for either jump entry or jump exit. Canonically, ships can jump again as soon as system checks are made; usually said to take only tens of minutes. Read up on X-boats for example.

Which is an added reason why intersteller outposts are so rare.
Why do you think they are rare?

The Terrans used one to reach Barnard and meet the Vilani. The Vilani used them to cross the many one and two parsec rifts within the Ziru Sirka. The Julians used them to strike the around Antares and force the Imperial into a stalemate in the war. El Dorado used one to leave the Islands Cluster after repairing her mis-jump damage and the IISS used them to return the Cluster to pass outjump technology. The Regency's Quarantine Service use them to interdict the movement of Vampires. Deep space jumps are a technique used early and often in the OTU.

It's nice to know of the YTU 'tweaks' that color the Kapiten's lectures.


Have fun,
Bill
 
In your estimation, which of these pirates will last the longest? It seems as though the Snatchers would be relatively short lived, from what you've said.
-----------------------------------

Aelfwine: that is an interesting question cadet. it depends on a variety of factors.

One is that "snatching" is a more high-risk, high-reward method of piracy then shapeshifting in some ways. The targets are often larger and are often the ship itself rather then the cargo(captured ships are in fact a weak point-they have the same vulnerablities as they did before capture and if they are recaptured they often have officers aboard who have an odd aversion to being in a Kjede og Galge arms factory for twelve years. Thus they can often be turned, alowing us to gain information as to their comrades patterns.

However a snatcher has several advantages. One is that it can generally be undisscovered. if it simply lies in wait in an obscure part of a star system and uses only his passive. Thus they tend to have the initiative at the beginning. A skilled pirate will be able to tell when a given vessel is in a position where it is too far from assistance.

But the chief advantages of snatchers is in geography. A large ammount of shipping goes through areas in which the local government is weak. A classic is the interface between two large and prosperous states. Each side is rich enough to maintain a large ammount of trade with the other, while conflict between their interests ensures that they will to some degree negate each others attemps to protect trade. Snatchers can often find places between them that are appropriate to their needs.

Snatchers are quite common in district 268. In fact The area is prosperous enough to attract trade, but protection is weak. The region is practically made for piracy. Ground attacks are also reliatively common: if you meet any it will likly be there or in other regions with simmilar situations.

Because of this a good snatcher probably has about as much chance of living to old age, as a naval officer or Patrolman. After all a naval officer is encouraged to seek out stronger targets.

On the whole the farther you get from a powerful state, the more common will snatchers be.
 
Some, most in fact, worlds orbit outside of their primary's 100D limit. Using the world's limit is usually correct. Tizon is the exception.
-------------------------------
OK more tweaking needed. I must have assumed it came toward the outer edge of the solar system. For now the "jump-scatter" will have to do!


In the OTU, entry close to a given mass is impoosible. You cannot exit jump within a 100D limt.
--------------------------
indeed

what I meant was 130D was safer then 100 D
----------------------
 
Originally posted by jatay3:
OK more tweaking needed. I must have assumed it came toward the outer edge of the solar system. For now the "jump-scatter" will have to do!
Jatay,

Sounds good. Don't forget to mark it IYTU. Jump scatter doesn't exist int OTU.


what I meant was 130D was safer then 100 D
Okay, now follow your own logic in your own setting. You say its better to exit further from the 100D but then you also say eixting jump in interstellar space is dangerous. Isn't interstellar space about as far from a 100D limit as you can get?

You can tweak YTU all you want, we all do that. If YTU fails to have any internal consistencey however, your tweaks won't work.


Have fun,
Bill
 
In Far Trader tables on p.60-61 indicate that the median time from primary to 100d is about two days at 2g and the median time from jump point to main world is three days at 2g.

Therefore snatchers will have time to watch a convoy. And "scatter" will account for pirates having a chance without needing as much tweaking as I thought-it's about the average time I thought necessary.

It also means that they spend about as much in-system time as I originally thought, which means it was already factored into travel time by the writers and if it doesn't work I can blame it on them.
 
Okay, now follow your own logic in your own setting. You say its better to exit further from the 100D but then you also say eixting jump in interstellar space is dangerous. Isn't interstellar space about as far from a 100D limit as you can get?
------------------------------------------
I was saying it's "danger" came from the delay in being able to jump again which encourages traffic not to take shortcuts not from damage to the ship. As it turns out that tweak is not necessary, as I have three days in system under IOTU. Scatter should be enough, and making it safer farther from 100D is not even necessary, though it is a nice touch.

The scatter I would picture would not mean that the whole convoy would regularly scatter like dandelion seeds every jump. Rather it would mean it would have varying results, but it would be common enough for a ship to be far enough out of the convoy for help to be impossible.
 
Bill Cameron:

J1, J2, J3 would refer to the speed of a single jump considered separately from the number of jumps possible.Speed as in time? If so, we're definitely in YTU territory here.
----------------------------
speed as in j1 is considered a measure of distance coverable in a week by a generic jump engine-and a synonym for a parsec, and the others are related thus j3 is the number of j1's that can be covered in a week


Unless one also assumes that one jump does not exaust all the fuel in an engine-and so could jump again as soon as the distortion had cleared up without refueling at every single system.One need not assume that at all as its already in the rules. The jump governor has been with us since the first edition of High Guard. All OTU ships designed since 1980 have one and all previously designed ships had one ret-conned into them.

Jumps only consume the amount of fuel the jump requires. Carry twenty dTons of jump fuel aboard a Suleiman, jump 1 parsec, and you'll have ten dTons of jump fuel left.
-------------------------------
thank you, that was a confusion
----------------------------------------
Which is an added reason why intersteller outposts are so rare.Why do you think they are rare?

The Terrans used one to reach Barnard and meet the Vilani. The Vilani used them to cross the many one and two parsec rifts within the Ziru Sirka. The Julians used them to strike the around Antares and force the Imperial into a stalemate in the war. El Dorado used one to leave the Islands Cluster aft

I simply meant reliatively rare-as rare as as any economicly expensive project required only in certain situations
 
as I have three days in system under IOTU
-----------------------------------
not factoring a convoys slower pace, or the fact that most will not be running 2g normally
 
Originally posted by jatay3:
I was saying it's "danger" came from the delay in being able to jump again which encourages traffic not to take shortcuts not from damage to the ship.
Jatay,

Okay, that will be an IYTU thing then.

In the OTU, we know that ships can jump again within 'tens of minutes' after exiting jump. Nothing about being in deep space, nothing about being far enough away from a 100D limts, none of that. You finish your system checks, generate a new course, and jump.

As it turns out that tweak is not necessary, as I have three days in system under IOTU. Scatter should be enough, and making it safer farther from 100D is not even necessary, though it is a nice touch.
Did you miss the bit on jump's physical accuracy? The '3000km per parsec' jumped number? The canonical scatter is not enough.

The scatter I would picture would not mean that the whole convoy would regularly scatter like dandelion seeds every jump. Rather it would mean it would have varying results, but it would be common enough for a ship to be far enough out of the convoy for help to be impossible.
Your warships' have a sensor/weapon ranges of ~892,000 km. You'll need your 'scatter' to be almost 300 times the OTU's canonical 'scatter' for a vessel to be unprotected.

Either drastically decrease weapon/sensor ranges IYTU or drastically increase jump scatter IYTU. Otherwise it won't work.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Originally posted by jatay3:
speed as in j1 is considered a measure of distance coverable in a week by a generic jump engine-and a synonym for a parsec, and the others are related thus j3 is the number of j1's that can be covered in a week
Jatay,

Okay, that is definitely an IYTU bit. Jumping one parsec with a jump3 drive does not take 1/3rd of a week.


I simply meant reliatively rare-as rare as as any economicly expensive project required only in certain situations
Sorry, they're not economically expensive either. Deep space jumps in the OTU are commonplace and the only cost is freighting the fuel to that point. Arekut, the Turkera subdivision, routinely routes its jump1 Mammoth freighters through a deep space hex in the Aramis subsector. The players in TTA even jump to that point to engage in a trade war.

You'll need an excuse for deep space jumps to be 'rare' IYTU.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Bill Cameron

The scatter I would picture would not mean that the whole convoy would regularly scatter like dandelion seeds every jump. Rather it would mean it would have varying results, but it would be common enough for a ship to be far enough out of the convoy for help to be impossible.Your warships' have a sensor/weapon ranges of ~892,000 km. You'll need your 'scatter' to be almost 300 times the OTU's canonical 'scatter' for a vessel to be unprotected.

Either drastically decrease weapon/sensor ranges IYTU or drastically increase jump scatter IYTU. Otherwise it won't work.
--------------------------------

I "they don't scatter arround like dandelion seeds" did not mean that the scatter occured at OTU. I simply meant that it hadn't increased to the level of dropping ships so far apart that they couldn't reform-that would be an unusual occurance. And it would not be at an even rate. More likly most would land near the entry point, and a small portion would enter far away from the convoy.

something like:
e= escort e! = flag
m=merchant
r=raider


e!
m m e

m m
m
m

m

m




m


r

---------------------------------------------
the pirate hit a windfall. but it is a windfall that happens often enough because of irregular scatter pattern. So yes scatter IMTU is far bigger, but the main point is the irregularities far out from the main body.
 
Bill Cameron
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 03:06 AMJanuary 28, 2006 03:06 AM Profile for Bill Cameron Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by jatay3:
speed as in j1 is considered a measure of distance coverable in a week by a generic jump engine-and a synonym for a parsec, and the others are related thus j3 is the number of j1's that can be covered in a weekJatay,

Okay, that is definitely an IYTU bit. Jumping one parsec with a jump3 drive does not take 1/3rd of a week.
-------------------------------
answer:No but j3 can get three parsecs in a week. the week remains the same but the distance increases
--------------------------------


quote:I simply meant reliatively rare-as rare as as any economicly expensive project required only in certain situations Sorry, they're not economically expensive either. Deep space jumps in the OTU are commonplace and the only cost is freighting the fuel to that point. Arekut, the Turkera subdivision, routinely routes its jump1 Mammoth freighters through a deep space hex in the Aramis subsector. The players in TTA even jump to that point to engage in a trade war.


You'll need an excuse for deep space jumps to be 'rare' IYTU.
-----------------------------------------
answer: the cost of building and maintaining a base in the midst of space which has no hinterland of it's own nearby(thus forcing it to rely either on artificial farming or long supply lines)and no natural source of jump fuel nearby.

As for the rarity deep space jumps. they are simply rarer then the other kind because the trade routes tend to follow the best path either from the profit point of view or the navigation point of view.
 
Icon 1 posted January 28, 2006 03:19 AMJanuary 28, 2006 03:19 AM Profile for jatay3 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Bill Cameron

The scatter I would picture would not mean that the whole convoy would regularly scatter like dandelion seeds every jump. Rather it would mean it would have varying results, but it would be common enough for a ship to be far enough out of the convoy for help to be impossible.Your warships' have a sensor/weapon ranges of ~892,000 km. You'll need your 'scatter' to be almost 300 times the OTU's canonical 'scatter' for a vessel to be unprotected.

Either drastically decrease weapon/sensor ranges IYTU or drastically increase jump scatter IYTU. Otherwise it won't work.
--------------------------------

I "they don't scatter arround like dandelion seeds" did not mean that the scatter occured at OTU. I simply meant that it hadn't increased to the level of dropping ships so far apart that they couldn't reform-that would be an unusual occurance. And it would not be at an even rate. More likly most would land near the entry point, and a small portion would enter far away from the convoy.

something like:
e= escort e! = flag
m=merchant
r=raider


e!
m m e

m m
m
m

m

m


m


r
-----------------------------
Well now that wasn't how I arranged the diagram at all-it got distorted. Apparently the net has it's own version of "scatter". Non the less in the original, before I "jumped" the diagram the bottom 'm' was in the far right with the 'r' bearing down on her
 
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