Speech by a veteran pirate-hunter

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by jatay3:
More likly most would land near the entry point, and a small portion would enter far away from the convoy.

Jatay,

Let me try again.

Your warships can detect another ship at 2 light-seconds. That is 595,200km. Once a ship is detected, your warships can track it out to 3 light-seconds. That is 892,800km. Your warships can fire at any vessel they detect or track.

For a merchant to be unprotected, that is outside the 595,200km to 892,800km weapons' range of the warship, it must exit jump space somewhere beyond that 595,200km to 892,800km range.

the pirate hit a windfall. but it is a windfall that happens often enough because of irregular scatter pattern. So yes scatter IMTU is far bigger, but the main point is the irregularities far out from the main body.

Look at the numbers again. You're talking about one hell of a distance here.

Also, what are your pirates doing in the mean time? They're just stooging around near the 100D jump limit hoping that a convoy will arrive with a ship ~800,000km 'off course'? And no one notices them waiting out there in the off chance someone scatters that far away from their escort?

I really believe you need to re-think this one. It isn't hanging together, there's no internal consistency.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by jatay3:
No but j3 can get three parsecs in a week. the week remains the same but the distance increases

Jatay,

Yes, of course, that's how jump drives work.

the cost of building and maintaining a base in the midst of space which has no hinterland of it's own nearby(thus forcing it to rely either on artificial farming or long supply lines)and no natural source of jump fuel nearby.

YTU may require such a base. The OTU does not. A vessel is either waiting there with fuel, has previously dropped off fuel or, in the case of TTA, the jumping vessel carries it's own extra fuel. Remember to differentiate between YTU and the OTU.

As for the rarity deep space jumps. they are simply rarer then the other kind because the trade routes tend to follow the best path either from the profit point of view or the navigation point of view.

Following trade routes is exactly why Arekut's Mammoth-class freighters are making the deep space jump in the first place. They aren't simply doing it for kicks.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by jatay3:
Well now that wasn't how I arranged the diagram at all-it got distorted. Apparently the net has it's own version of "scatter". Non the less in the original, before I "jumped" the diagram the bottom 'm' was in the far right with the 'r' bearing down on her

Jatay,

You're diagram doesn't matter because you're ignoring the numbers.

Once again; Your escorting warships can fire on a vessel up to 892,800km away so your 'scattered' or lost merchant needs to be further than 892,800km away in order to be unprotected.

Making matters even more implausible, your pirate needs to be in precisely the right spot when the convoy arrives; more than 892,800km away from the escorts and yet close enough to the 'scattered' or 'lost' merchant to seize her before the escorts can close the range.

Look at the numbers and re-think your scenario. It doesn't work as you describe it.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[jatay3]

Also, what are your pirates doing in the mean time? They're just stooging around near the 100D jump limit hoping that a convoy will arrive with a ship ~800,000km 'off course'? And no one notices them waiting out there in the off chance someone scatters that far away from their escort?
-------------------------------------
they are not "just hoping a convoy will arrive with a ship 800,000km off course". They are not even hoping for a convoy. They are hoping for ships-which the convoy happens to contain. They would rather have a ship independant of a convoy in fact. But they will take a try at a convoy once in a while

Furthermore the shipping is reasonably predictible.
They could roughly guess when the convoy was going to come and where. It is not as if they were simply choosing a place randomly.

In any case all Aelfwine said was that "several" times over a career of twenty-three years, served throughout the subsector and beyond(someone here assummed the events described happend at Tizon, because I put the Patrol academy on Tizon. Tizon just happens to be where the lecture takes place and the Patrol serves SWC not Tizon. and yes, snatchers would be rare on Tizon). He did not say it happend every single voyage.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by jatay3:
they are not "just hoping a convoy will arrive with a ship 800,000km off course".

Jatay,

Well that's the only way they'll have a crack at a convoyed ship.

They are not even hoping for a convoy.

Considering that the escorts can hit them at a range of three light-seconds that's understandable.

They are hoping for ships-which the convoy happens to contain.

That's like saying hijackers aren't hoping for the armored truck they're only hoping for the money it contains. You got to deal with one to get the other.

They would rather have a ship independant of a convoy in fact. But they will take a try at a convoy once in a while

Sure. If they're stupid.

Furthermore the shipping is reasonably predictible. They could roughly guess when the convoy was going to come and where. It is not as if they were simply choosing a place randomly.

It is very predictable and the defenders already in the system can make the same prediction and have an escort waiting for the convoy to arrive. Just like air cover in those WW2 convoys. The convoy can even have an escort or two jump ahead on the main body and arrive before the main body does.

Seeing some vessel stooging around off the 100D jump limit- remember you can see that far from orbit around most worlds - is cause enough for a SDB to pay that vessel a courtesy call.

In any case all Aelfwine said was that "several" times over a career of twenty-three years, served throughout the subsector and beyond(someone here assummed the events described happend at Tizon, because I put the Patrol academy on Tizon. Tizon just happens to be where the lecture takes place and the Patrol serves SWC not Tizon. and yes, snatchers would be rare on Tizon). He did not say it happend every single voyage.

Only 'several' times in 23 years and yet the pirate still make a living? Only 'several' times in 23 years and yet the Kapiten has enough examples to create different catagories of pirates? Sure.

Let's see. You developed your model of piracy without knowing:

- Jump doesn't always use all jump fuel aboard a vessel.
- Jump is accurate within 3000km/parsec
- Warships can see and fire on vessels 3 light-seconds away.
- Vessels can synchronize their jump courses in order to cut down on temporal scattering.
- Deep space jumps are commonplace.
- Most, but not all, 100D limits vessels need to worry about are exerted by planets and not stars.

And your piracy model depends on an IYTU 'tweak' involving vessels occasionally exiting jump at a point over 892,500km from that planned which alos happens to be within range of a pirate, a pirate which no one the system happened to notice.

And all this somehow happens often enough to keep pirates not only supplied and repaired but also makes enough money to attract criminal oganizations.

So, the subject 'Kapiten' is 'instructing' us on relies on a double handful of ignored facts, one huge 'tweak', and several complete implausibilities.

Will this all be on the test?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[selunatic2397]

Is this some kind of a grudge/flame thing going on? I enjoyed reading the original post and had no trouble understanding it. Then bill jumps down jatay3's throat...again...and again...I come back 2 days later and find a long post from bill virtually the same fault finding over and over telling jatay3 how things are done in the REAL traveller. Absolutely no one has a total canon campaign identical to yours in every tiny detail. We are here to have fun and chat with friends, if you don't like the post....don't reply to it bill. This is starting to sound like a playground spat.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by selunatic2397:
I come back 2 days later and find a long post from bill virtually the same fault finding over and over telling jatay3 how things are done in the REAL traveller.

Selunatic,

I pointed out the same things over and over because Jatay still did not get it.

He said; 'This is how things are done IMTU' and then proceeded to explain them. The trouble was they did not work, even in his TU. His idea about 'scatter', although a good one, is not enough. Either his ships scatter an order of magnitude greater than he is proposing or his warships have a far shorter sensor/weapon ranges than he is proposing.

Absolutely no one has a total canon campaign identical to yours in every tiny detail.

I'm not suggesting they should and I've never suggested that they should. That's why I've been constantly popping in those pesky acronyms like IMTU, OTU, and IYTU.

The problem with Jatay's pirate 'lecture' is that it doesn't even work in his own Traveller universe. It has no internal consistency and the first players presented with it will immediately spot the same continuity errors that I did. It doesn't even work in his own Traveller setting.

We are here to have fun and chat with friends...

Jatay specifically asked for questions and responses to his post. My response; which was the same any player's would be, was How come this doesn't work? I suggested changes that would make it work and then had to repeatedly explain those changes.

Why ask for questions and responses if you're going to ignore them?

If he merely wanted to role-play this Kapiten character of his, the Random Static forum is available. Trader Jim uses it for that purpose all the time.

This is starting to sound like a playground spat.

Hardly. Jatay's posts have run into this trouble before. Check out one he began regarding the Sword Worlds Confederation military. His proposals there, which he passed off as canonical, not only failed to take into account the canon he said he was following but also failed to understand what the term 'confederation' means and how confederations work.

When you post something for questions and responses, you will get questions and responses. Good, bad, or ugly.

As for the formatting of the original post, you may have been able to read it easily - the Internet, text messaging, and affectations like 'l33t' have all but destroyed ideas like punctuation, spelling, or clarity - but many others weren't able to read it. Two said so in this very thread and I recieved PMs saying the same. One PM even thanked me.

You take the time to type up a 'lecture', then post it in a nearly formless blotch and ask for questions and responses? If you want us to be forced to translate it, why not post it in Sanskrit as well? If the idea is to 'chat' as you put it, why not chat clearly?


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Bill,
I don't think it's necessarily true that "the first players presented with it will immediately spot the same continuity errors that I did." You are a stickler for certain things, as I am. But, even many Traveller players just aren't that interested in opening the little black box to see how things work. We here on CotI may be slight exceptions.

Also, just cool your jets. It'll be fine. You brought up your points in this thread, and people will read those points, and they will decide (hopefully on the merits) whether they want to do it your way or jatay's way. That's a big advantage of this forum - lay out your arguments and let others decide. There are definitely some projects on which I would like to sic your tenacity...

As far as posts, I am an old guy, and don't do chat, so I tend to type as if my post could be read by anybody - as they sometimes are. So, I go in for the paragraphs, UBB code, gremlins, etc. That way, I can be better understood - I don't want to have to clean out my PM box because of questions...

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Fritz88:
... whether they want to do it your way or jatay's way.

Fritz88,

Thanks for the note.

I just want to make sure that people understand this isn't a question of my way versus Jatay's way. This is a question of Jatay's way versus Jatay's way.

Jatay said MTU's conditions are A, B, and C. Because of that piracy works like D. That just isn't the case. His description doesn't even work in his own setting.

If his description of piracy doesn't even work in his own Traveller universe, his players will pick up on it. There will be an event or incident that doesn't go the way they wanted it to or effects tham in some negative manner and they'll throw all this right back in his face.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[jatay3]

Bill Cameron
Avatar Image
Marquis
CID # 877

Icon 1 posted January 27, 2006 05:09 PMJanuary 27, 2006 05:09 PM Profile for Bill Cameron Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote
quote:Originally posted by jatay3:
Take a typical convoy. We will say it has one Tizonian destroyer for muscle, and four Confederation Patrol vessels to do the main work-that is a fairly average arrangement.
quote:When a raider comes it waits for a vessel that has gone far enough astray that help cannot arrive on time.Jatay3,

A Tizon destroyer and four patrollers covering a convoy. A vessel goes astray and help can't arrive in time? Hmmm...

Tizon is B386887. That gives us a diameter of 3K miles or 4.8K kilometers. 100D limit is then 480K kilometers off. Using the start-turnover-stop course, a one-gee vessel can cover that distance in 3.88 hours.

Detection in CT is 0.5 light-seconds for commercial vessels; ~150K kilometers. Detection for military vessels is 2 light-seconds; ~595K kilometers. Once detected, a vessel can be tracked by any other vessel out to 3 light-seconds; ~892K kilometers. Any vessel you can detect you can fire upon.

So, the convoy and it's escorts can travel between the safety of the port and the safety of jump space in 3.88 hours. The military escorts' sensors and weapons have enough range to detect and fire upon any vessel within ~595K kilometers, which happens to be distance over 100K kilometers greater than the 100D limit distance they are covering.
---------------------------------------------
On p. 140 Starships, the longest possible range given for a turret heavy laser is 150,000. None of the vessels sited as a typical convoy-one small naval vessel and four police vessels would have had this. And no I don't know the combined fields of fire of all of these.

Furthermore, as I said Aelfwine was not merely refering to vessels he was assigned to escort, but vessels which were simply nearby but yet to far to assist.

I do admit to an error. On rechecking Far Trader I found that Bill was indeed right about the normal time in system. I think the designers are shooting themselves in the foot with this and more time is really needed. I can figure that out later.

Bill however does seem to have a curious tendency to harp on whether or not deep-space jumps were "rare". That idea is in fact not only periphrial but expendable, they were only brought up as part of a few ideas brought together to make it work. To be honest Bill caught me by supprise and the main thing I needed was anything to plausibly make it work-quickly. I knew perfectly well they were cobbled together. They were not "IMTY" at all because Bill's objections were from an area of OTU that I hadn't studied so much and so I wasn't consciously making a change.

As for Bill's objection that I am writing IMTY, well that is the name of the thread. Tom Clancy details belong in "the Fleet". And yes I need some time to think this through-but that area just isn't my cup of tea(I prefer Russian Black); I am satisfied to have a good idea of the tacical situation and machinery is largely atmosphere(don't say it, I am aware that the interaction between tactics and technology is subtle, and my description of my interests is incomplete). In other words I don't ask why the technology makes a given tactical situation what it is any more than I ask why a pawn moves forward and captures diagonally. I am simply not a mechanic. If anyone has a way to adjust this that will fit Bill Cameron's exacting standards I would be glad to hear.

In any case I was to a large degree creating a scene, inventing a character(Kapiten Aelfwine)and a place(Confederation Patrol Academy). And Bill please do not say, "your 'scene' doesn't work" as you will no doubt be longing to say. It will work if it is adjusted properly, and you are perfectly free to make suggestions as to the adjustments required. Please though give more than comments on why it won't work-I am not interested in that but in what to do to make it work. Surely out of tens of thousands of readers someone can get it right.

As for Bill's point about scatter-well the main thing I want is simply for it to be big enough and not to big-big enough to have an effect but not so big that the ships in the convoy might as well sail singly. I am happy to increase it to that point, OK?

Selunitic, thank you for sticking up for me. However, irritating though it is to be the target I cannot complain as I can be like Bill on the subjects I am more likly to care about-such as the social structure of a given Sci-Fi society. Furthermore it is an interesting learning experience to be the target for once and it is well enough that it was only in discussing the details of a story. Maybe that is sometimes what people fell like when talking to me-no matter.

All that needs to be known is that Kapiten Aelfwine is a competant, loyal and experienced officer, the cadets are intelligent students who managed to get into one of the most rigorous schools in the Sword Worlds. The tactical situations I described were such as I thought reasonably consistent with Traveller, and anyone who is bothered by an anomally is free to suggest modifications, either to the lecture or to the OTU. Please do so without And please, no more "jastay, you really need to think this through". It may be true but it is not necessary.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by jatay3:
On p. 140 Starships, the longest possible range given for a turret heavy laser is 150,000.

Jatay,

The sensor and weapon ranges I posted are from CT. The distances I posted are from CT. If you want to use GT weapons, sensors, and distances than do so. That wasn't clear in your original however.

As for Bill's objection that I am writing IMTY, well that is the name of the thread.

That is not my objection, as I have stated at least three times in the thread.

My objection is that your own piracy scenario doesn't work in your own Traveller universe.

Please though give more than comments on why it won't work-I am not interested in that but in what to do to make it work. Surely out of tens of thousands of readers someone can get it right.

Good Sweet Strephon! I DID make suggestions as to how to fix it! Several times as a matter of fact. I suggested you either increase the distance you vessels scatter or decrease the ranges of your sensor and weapons.

As for Bill's point about scatter-well the main thing I want is simply for it to be big enough and not to big-big enough to have an effect but not so big that the ships in the convoy might as well sail singly. I am happy to increase it to that point, OK?

So you do remember one of my suggestions? That's comforting.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[jatay3]

So you do remember one of my suggestions? That's comforting.
---------------------------
I did remember it all the time and I was trying to get it to work all the time. I was trying to balance two needs, the need to scatter enough and the need not to scatter to much. I was most assuredly not ignoring your suggestion-which come to think of it was originally mine in the first place.

As for it being a "suggestion" well the way it was presented sounded more like a sarcastic dismissal then a suggestion. Saying "scatter would have to be 300 times" sounds more like a reason why it won't work then a suggestion. Furthermore I wasn't arguing with you over the precise numbers-I just what would make it work. If you think 300 times is the right number, by all means make it 300 times.

As for me needing to state that it was Gurps, equally you should have asked. That too might have brought some clarification. In any case as far as I am aware most of the information about the Sword World's is in fact in Gurps. Furthermore I simply picked the most obvious source I had for this information.

We are going at this from two different directions. You are looking at the trees. I am arranging the forest and assuming the trees can be reasonably made to fit somehow.

The situations Kapiten Aelfwine described were anecdotes not textbooks. He said a "typical" convoy had one destroyer and four patrol vessels. He meant a typical convoy as it set sail-not after the escorts had their formation disturbed, by this vessel setting off in pursuit, that answering distress calls, another out of fuel, or what ever-jiggle to your hearts content. He further more did not say how much force he had on the specific incidents descrbed. Or how much the enemy had. Or even whether he was in command. He never gave any details about the specific incidents described beyond the fact that they happend. The descriptions are vague enough to be interpreted in the manner you think appropriate and I see no reason why you cannot do so. The only canon details that really need to be modified are time-in-system, and scatter and the resulting corrolaries. This I have done long ago.

The reason for this vagueness? He was not a professor, and this was not a normal class that would deal with gritty details. He was a distinguished field commander speaking on a special occasion. Expecting him to talk about details would be like expecting Arleigh Burke to talk about the specs of a Fletcher class destroyer when addressing the students at Annapolis. The students should already know dry details-Kapiten Aelfwine was being invited to give them the benefits of his experience.

Now can we please get off of this. Traveller was supposed to be fun last time I checked.

 

[jatay3]

Hardly. Jatay's posts have run into this trouble before. Check out one he began regarding the Sword Worlds Confederation military. His proposals there, which he passed off as canonical, not only failed to take into account the canon he said he was following but also failed to understand what the term 'confederation' means and how confederations work.
---------------------------------
I did not "pass off" my propossals as canon-I merely said they were not inconsistent with canon.
And I did not "fail to understand the term confederation", I simply had a different understanding of a vague term-one which I supported with several arguments. And no I do not want to reopen that one again either.

 

[jatay3]

And I did not "fail to understand the term confederation", I simply had a different understanding of a vague term-one which I supported with several arguments. And no I do not want to reopen that one again either.
-----------------------------
Oh yes and the notion that a given state must pedantically comform to the image of itself given by it's title is odd. I went by the description of the SWC given in the book, as well as analogous states not by the term "confederation" which doesn't mean anything but association. And yes I looked it up in the dictionary. And "I was right and he was stupid" is not a polite thing to say.

And by the way this certainly is becoming a playground spat. And yes I did say I didn't want to reopen that one:I was inconsistent, shame on me.

 

[jatay3]

Oh and the discussion referred to is titled "grossfyrd" those who have interest in it may go there.

 

[Whipsnade]

Jatay,

You win.

I give up.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[jatay3]

If he merely wanted to role-play this Kapiten character of his, the Random Static forum is available. Trader Jim uses it for that purpose all the time.
--------------------------------------------
I did not "merely" want to role-play this Kapiten character. I did want to discuss the behavior of pirates in a manner that would sound like a class discussion. It was intended to be a semi-role play if you will. What I did not want to do was number-crunch.

 

[jatay3]

Jatay,

You win.

I give up.


Have fun,
Bill
-------------------------
good now that the unpleasantness is finished would anybody like to help me repair it and make it worth reading?

 

[jatay3]

Now to answer certain questions given before why would pirates attack a convoy:
well they wouldn't-they would follow it like wolves following a herd of buffalo.
Why would people voyage independantly if they could go in convoy:
because there are advantages to being independant: For one thing a schduled convoy might take them off their planned course, the convoy might have a schedule that doesn't fit, theirs. Or simply all the spaces are filled. Supposeing a hypothetically lawless subsector has only five or six convoys going through each month-is shipping supposed to stop because of that?
Finnally, the captain might simply be convinced he is safer on his own. He is certainly less constrained.

My idea on what a convoy would entail is given in "trader customs"

 

[jatay3]

continued:
from "trader customs"


Icon 1 posted October 24, 2005 10:16 PMOctober 24, 2005 10:16 PM Profile for jatay3 Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote On convoys:

convoys would come in different forms

Wartime convoys would be for the special purposes inherent in wartime-they need little description as most would be fammiliar

Public convoys-organized by a state and escorted by military and/or police assets. Follow regular schedules which are announced publicly. Shipowners obtain a place in one for their ships in whatever way is fashionable in the area.

Private convoys-not organized by the state. defense is handled by the members themselves. some would be joint convoys of several different merchants-these would operate in a manner similar to a public convoy. others would contain ships belonging only to a single company. These need not make their schdules known to any except the state.

Linked convoys-one ends where another begins

eternal convoys-some convoys have followed the same route for centuries, following the same rules, becoming an institution older than many states. Nobody knows when they began-they are not sponsored by any state or any known individual. While presumably someone organized the first one, his name is forgotten. The ships that make them up change but the route stays the same, just as a river has different water molecules each but follows the same course. It is the course that remains permanent.

Convoys would have their own customs. For instance they might periodically elect a Convoy Commodore. Famous Convoy Commodores would have statues in the market square. And so on.