Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I figure I could stick a 1KT/TL15 Meson gun into a 2KT hull. In Mongoose.
Spinal mounts in MgT HG
- Thread starter Condottiere
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Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
hang on, a 1000 Dton Meson spinal? thier isn't one in MgT, smallest meson spinal is MgT HG is 3000 Dton (meson type A-15). smallest spinal gun in total is 2100 Dton (Particle B-15).
I'm afraid you're wrong here...
According to page 66 (at least on MGT LBB:HG, not sure about the page in large book, though I think it will not change) an A rated Meson Spinal is 5000 dtons at TL 11, but at TL +4 (so 15) it's size is reduced by 80%, so being 1000 dtons in size.
PA Spinals are less reduced by TL, so the smallest of them is 3000 dtons (5000 dton at TL 8, -40% at TL +4).
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
*checks agian*
Dammit! this is what i get for skim reading!
Dammit! this is what i get for skim reading!
I use to see some tough 10-20kdt designs back 30 years ago.
There are better question we've seen across many threads;
How do we make effective larger vessels, ships for the big ship universe?
What changes in the Tigress make it tougher? Some of this discussion has occurred.
IMTU, I use some FF&S and end up with multiple spinal mounts above 100kdt. I make changes by using a chassis for such ship designs, cost is higher, maintenance is higher.
Inside of OTU we need to have designs that do one thing very well and are "ok" at other things. Hence, the question is the Tigress a combat ship first or a monitor?
The multi-meson screen idea is also interesting. Certainly that benefits my larger designs.
Or should we go after the combat rule system?
That's due to MgT lacking any equivalent to EPs/Mw. In MgT, only the PP number is used to see if a ship may mount spinals or bays (energy using weaponry, not missiles), so, the smaller the ship, the smaller the PP you need to mount a Spinal weapon...
There is a good point of logic to that approach. A 100dt combat scout could have a spinal mount. The question becomes how is effectiveness judged and what is the type of weapon. At lower techs we could see PAs in small combat vessels.
That is already given by the lowering the volume needed, but see that a TL 15 A Meson gun in a 5000 dt ship, needing a 100 dton for a factor 2 PP, is as bit as powerful as the same TL 15 A Meson Gun mounted in a 500000 dton and needing a 10000 ton PP (and, BTW, this same PP could power a D rated Meson Gun, if it fits in your ship).
I guess (I'd have to run the numbers) this 5000 dt ship with a 100 dton PP could even mount a C class Meson Gun, even if it would have space for Little else (Space version of a JgPzr
).
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Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
well, the Computer-based size limits in Mgt captial ships mean that a TL10 fleet is limited to 10,000 tons or less. a TL 9 fleet is limited to 5,000 tons, and so cannot build spinal mount ships (since the spinal takes up at least 80% of volumne of the ship).
sure it can, it's called a Bay weapon. Hell, they stick a tech-shunk 50 ton missle bay ( a missle bay 9 needs only 31 tons) on a 70 ton bomber, to let it spam 12 missles a turn, with 4 turns ammo. combined with the barrage rules, it's a trick that lets fighters have at least some impact on larger ships.
sure it can, it's called a Bay weapon. Hell, they stick a tech-shunk 50 ton missle bay ( a missle bay 9 needs only 31 tons) on a 70 ton bomber, to let it spam 12 missles a turn, with 4 turns ammo. combined with the barrage rules, it's a trick that lets fighters have at least some impact on larger ships.
And that means that at TL 8 you can build an A rated PA Spinal, but being 5000 dtons in size, not the ship to mount it :CoW:...
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
yhea, that's a weird one. not sure what they were aiming at their, unless it was given that low down a TL purely for GM-fiat low tech monitors, or some sort of planetary defense battery, a la the Ion Cannon in Empire Strikes Back.
While not explicit in MgT, I don't believe the PA Spinals are expected to defend a planet (at least habitable ones), as I'm not sure the same PAs usable in space would work in atmosphere and vice-versa (something quite clear in fromer Traveller versions, and explained in some JTAS articles as the diferences on Charged-PAWS and Neutral-PAWS).
Some time ago, I commented a similar problem in MgT with the PA weapons being TL 8 but requiring a triple turret that is TL 9 itself. Here I was told about using the prototype rules, that I guess could also work in this case (some ships using prototype computers, quite more expensive and assumed less reliable, to bring those Spinal PAs to space).
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Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
That is indeed the other option, but i avoided that, mainly becuase it means we are looking at a potential TL 7 spinal mount (CERN making a weaponised LHC?)
ant such a defense batter could be vacumn mounted on a moon or large asteroid parked in orbit. It';s not a monitor, per se, as it's not got engines, so that might be another end-run on the rules.
ant such a defense batter could be vacumn mounted on a moon or large asteroid parked in orbit. It';s not a monitor, per se, as it's not got engines, so that might be another end-run on the rules.
If it has solar or thrusters it's a monitor or defense satellite.
I don't see why they could not have an early tech version if they needed it.
It would have cost a lot for that culture. Asteroid defense perhaps.
Well, MgT rules would allow that...
It would somehow need some (as small as they can be) drives if it has to be aimed, and I guess that converts it to a spaceship...
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
dunno, does a RCS or simmilar method of chaning orientation make it a "starship"?
or, we could up give it even more mass, and say that the ground mounted versions, has some sort of aimable barrel/projector/whatever.
or, we could up give it even more mass, and say that the ground mounted versions, has some sort of aimable barrel/projector/whatever.
Xerxeskingofking
SOC-13
another oddity i have just noticed: their is a disconnect between the starship (ie sub capital) and capital ship computers and their processing power.
A max spec, TL 15 Model 7 starship computer has a rating of 35 and costs 30Mcr, but the captial ship Core/3 is rating 40 at only TL9 and just 12 MCr.
I can't think of a way that makes sense form a IC viewpoint. *shrugs*
anyway, back on topic, i noticed this as i was statting up a 10 Kton, TL 10 "battleship", to see what it would look like. not finished yet, but the results so far are....intresting. max armour of only 10 points, no screens, and that spinal eats up a huge amount of the tonnage. it's inaccurate as well, as the limited fire control software does not make up for the stiff base to-hit values.
On the surface, i'm not wholly conviced that at TL 10, a spinal mount ship would be able to beat a non spinal ship. I've not dug into the maths to check, but massed barrage fire could well do some serious damage, maybe more than a spinal could do.
Might be worthwhile drawing up a TL10, 10 Kton "super destroyer", armed with a metric shedload of missle or torpeado bays, or even railgun bays (12 points per 50 ton bay in a barrage, unaffected by defensive fire? thats going to get painful, quickly), and then throw them agianst each other.......
edit: another thing that effects ship design: since screens are hundreds of years, and 2 Tech levels, in the future, the best protection you can get again radiation is the rad sheild hull upgrade, which is fine.....in just costs a MCr per 4 tons. my 10 Kton ship has a 100 Mcr hull, with 50 Mcr armour....and 2500 Mcr of rad shielding. It's looking at about 25-33% of the total cost of the ship. I wonder if the effects are enough to allow 3 rad sheilded ships to take on 4 non shielded ships.....
A max spec, TL 15 Model 7 starship computer has a rating of 35 and costs 30Mcr, but the captial ship Core/3 is rating 40 at only TL9 and just 12 MCr.
I can't think of a way that makes sense form a IC viewpoint. *shrugs*
anyway, back on topic, i noticed this as i was statting up a 10 Kton, TL 10 "battleship", to see what it would look like. not finished yet, but the results so far are....intresting. max armour of only 10 points, no screens, and that spinal eats up a huge amount of the tonnage. it's inaccurate as well, as the limited fire control software does not make up for the stiff base to-hit values.
On the surface, i'm not wholly conviced that at TL 10, a spinal mount ship would be able to beat a non spinal ship. I've not dug into the maths to check, but massed barrage fire could well do some serious damage, maybe more than a spinal could do.
Might be worthwhile drawing up a TL10, 10 Kton "super destroyer", armed with a metric shedload of missle or torpeado bays, or even railgun bays (12 points per 50 ton bay in a barrage, unaffected by defensive fire? thats going to get painful, quickly), and then throw them agianst each other.......
edit: another thing that effects ship design: since screens are hundreds of years, and 2 Tech levels, in the future, the best protection you can get again radiation is the rad sheild hull upgrade, which is fine.....in just costs a MCr per 4 tons. my 10 Kton ship has a 100 Mcr hull, with 50 Mcr armour....and 2500 Mcr of rad shielding. It's looking at about 25-33% of the total cost of the ship. I wonder if the effects are enough to allow 3 rad sheilded ships to take on 4 non shielded ships.....
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See that at TL10 you PA spinal (only the A rated is available) will mass 4000 dton and need a PP2 (you'll probably need more for the MD).
The railgun must come to short range before being able to hit. I'd better arm the super destroyer with PA turrets. With so many of them with 3D damage each and long range, it has an impressive barrage, and also does radiation damage. Not sure if they are affected by sandcasters in MgT (but the table for sandcasters in barrage fire, in page 74 of MgT LBB2:HG only talks about lasers and missiles, so I guess they're not, as was in CT/MT).
Read last sentence, first paragraph page 79 of MgT LBB2;HG:
So no, it's not worth it (although your ship could be affected by radiation if armor is reduced to 7- after taking some damage, but probably it will not be too combat worthy by then...)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Regarding computers and oversized ships, I think it would be solved by running several in parallel, though there is no mechanism in the rules for this, or by degrading ship performance.
I calculated that at TL7 you end up with large Intel mainframes taking up a stateroom.
I calculated that at TL7 you end up with large Intel mainframes taking up a stateroom.
